Why Don't You Use ActiveCaptain?

May 17, 2004
5,676
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Ways I, personally, would use this app:
  • "Hey, I am at my boat and need to turn her around in her slip. Anyone lend a hand?"
  • "I brought my Sailrite machine out to the boat today (at the marina) and am done with my project. Anyone need anything while I've got it out?"
  • "We are anchored over near Fairhaven and just blew our spare cooling belt. LFS has it in stock. Is someone coming this way in the next day or two?"
You said earlier that you didn’t think the app would need wide adoption to be useful, but all of those questions are best answered if a critical mass of people are on the app.

It seems like most of the other use cases
you mentioned are already covered by Facebook groups. I don’t like Facebook any more than the next millennial, but that’s where all the people already are and that’s where people go for those kinds of community discussions. I’m begrudgingly in a couple local boating FB groups and all the types of conversations you mentioned are there. Your proposal adds:
- The mapping overlay. Handy, but probably not critical.
- Not needing Facebook. Ok, for the people that don’t want an account that’s a feature, but at this point not for very many people.
- SMS messaging. But the places where that’s available and data isn’t are decreasingly common. Twitter started with SMS and a website but dropped the SMS capability years ago.
 
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Likes: jssailem
Jan 11, 2014
12,945
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I was going to revisit this later, when we had some more concrete decisions, since this conversation seemed to go off the rails, a bit. But, I'll try one more time.

First, I take complete responsibility. I am not saying "you guys just don't get it". I am saying, I have done a poor job explaining. This is partially because I have discussed this system with a LOT of people over the past couple of weeks, and I don't remember what I've said to whom.

Also, part of this is that this is not a completed system, by any stretch. This is an early-days discussion. We have some general ideas, but nothing is set in stone yet. Some of what I mentioned will make it into the final product, some won't. And, there will be things we haven't even thought of yet. I was hoping that these discussions would help with that. You are seeing a really early glimpse behind the process of how these things are developed - not a finished proposal.

So, let's start with the premise or the perceived problem we are trying to address:

In our community, there are a lot of people on the water for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of vessels. For the most part, no one knows anyone else. If you belong to a club, you probably know people in your club, but that's about it. We see the same people on the water, frequently, but don't know anything about them. There is a general agreement among boaters in the area that they feel isolated from other boaters, even among some that belong to clubs.

We want to do a better job of creating a sense of community in our immediate local area. We live in an age when the increasing expectation that any such cohesion involves some digital communication. Good or bad, that is how it works, these days.

Part of belonging to a community is that we help each other out. It is important, even if we never use it, to feel like you do have support in the community, if you need it.

Ways I, personally, would use this app:
  • "Hey, I am at my boat and need to turn her around in her slip. Anyone lend a hand?"
  • "I brought my Sailrite machine out to the boat today (at the marina) and am done with my project. Anyone need anything while I've got it out?"
  • "We are anchored over near Fairhaven and just blew our spare cooling belt. LFS has it in stock. Is someone coming this way in the next day or two?"
I have towing insurance and, if I really need a professional, I will call a professional. This isn't for that. The app might be able to give you important phone numbers that you might not have had on-hand. But, that would just be a courtesy. So, let's say I reached out about that belt. As part of the response, the system might offer up other people I could call directly, if I need to. But, the emphasis is on community helping community, first.

It has obvious (hopefully) uses for things like organized cruises or race nights, where VHF chatter isn't appropriate and most other media (like group text) lacks the ability to include positional information (mapping) and/or filter messages that don't pertain.

My hope is that yacht and paddling clubs will be among early adopters. Then, we convince clubs to share "channels" to broaden the community and break down some silos.

There are other tools that address this need partially, but none is purpose-built for the on-the-water community. SeaPeople is maybe an exception and I think the comparison is a fair one. Honestly, I think the main differentiators from SeaPeople are:
  • Marketing: We hope to appeal to a broader demographic (in terms of age, personality, etc.) but also highly-localized. That is, it is probably not for anyone outside of about 25-30 mile radius. If it becomes available in the next town over, it will probably be highly-localized to them. There won't be much emphasis placed on joining those two communities in any way, but rather on strengthening each community's local ties.
  • Structure: I think we are more focused on deliberate communication, rather than chatter. That is, maybe you want to see who is up for an impromptu BBQ out on the bay. I should be able to choose not to be notified of those sorts of messages/requests. Or, maybe that's the only kind of message I want. The structure puts individuals in better control so that it isn't just more noise that can/should be 99% ignored.
  • Visibility: It also tells the person reaching out how many people are in the area that are open to receiving that kind of message. No point in a BBQ invitation if no one is nearby who might be open to that.
  • Local: At least for now, confined to our local area, people can walk right up to the people who built and run the system. It is not some company somewhere else doing who-knows-what with your data, and not interested in your suggestions for improvement. That makes it easier for local clubs to warm to the idea, in some ways. It can be highly customized to fit the community.
Also, WhatsApp was mentioned, and it is often used in ways that overlap what this system would do. I, personally, will never install WhatsApp or any Meta product. It is the burden of knowledge of how the company runs. I think it is problematic to require folks to install it if they want to participate in the reindeer games with everyone else. It is a good example, however, of our assertion that people use the tools they are most familiar with.

Importantly, our system will support an optional SMS (text messaging) interface. So, if you don't have a data signal or just don't want to install the app, you can still participate.

Yes, this still requires a signal and, no, this is not always available. But, this isn't for every possible situation. It isn't meant to be a tool you rely on in remote areas, or an emergency hailing tool, or any application where a lack of signal would be particularly problematic. Nearly all boats on the water in our region at any given moment are well within cell range. I actually suspect it will get a big chunk of its use just at the marina. And, it probably won't be particularly useful outside of our bay. But, 90% (completely made up number) of all on-the-water activity of people in this area takes place in the bay.

Hopefully, that is a better explanation than I offered, previously.

If it still isn't for you, that's completely fine. Like I've said, it probably isn't really for me, either. That is, if I didn't build it, I'm not sure I would use it. But, we're getting really strong feedback from people who believe they would. I'm trying to understand what people do and don't want, so we can make a better system.
Sounds a lot like NoForeignLand.
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
611
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
I, personally, will never install WhatsApp or any Meta product. It is the burden of knowledge of how the company runs.
I agree with your sentiment, and only reluctantly installed it. The reality is that while you may be able to get along without it for the time being, in many places of the world it is the only way to communicate short of walking into a business or meeting a person face to face. I mean businesses and people either don't have phone numbers or email, or they just don't answer them - only Whatsapp. From the Bahamas and throughout Central and South America, almost nobody private, public, or business uses text, email, or regular phone services - only Whatsapp. I just read an article this morning that all of Meta's growth right now is driven solely by Whatsapp's business services.

Mark
 
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Likes: jssailem

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,409
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
I agree with your sentiment, and only reluctantly installed it. The reality is that while you may be able to get along without it for the time being, in many places of the world it is the only way to communicate short of walking into a business or meeting a person face to face. I mean businesses and people either don't have phone numbers or email, or they just don't answer them - only Whatsapp. From the Bahamas and throughout Central and South America, almost nobody private, public, or business uses text, email, or regular phone services - only Whatsapp. I just read an article this morning that all of Meta's growth right now is driven solely by Whatsapp's business services.

Mark
Whatsapp, Viber, and telegram. I've had to get all three. Depends on where in the world.

Telegram has an advantage in group messaging as Whatsapp is limited to the number of members. If you are sailing in Spain or Portugal, get telegram and join Rui's orca groups. It's absolutely the best resource out there.

dj
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,409
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
@Foswick I'm going to walk through your post and give you my opinion on the points you've raised. This is meant as a friendly conversation, not confrontational at all.

So, let's start with the premise or the perceived problem we are trying to address:

In our community, there are a lot of people on the water for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of vessels. For the most part, no one knows anyone else. If you belong to a club, you probably know people in your club, but that's about it. We see the same people on the water, frequently, but don't know anything about them. There is a general agreement among boaters in the area that they feel isolated from other boaters, even among some that belong to clubs.
I get what you are saying. I don't agree with the statement “We see the same people on the water, frequently”. While sure I run into people multiple times, I wouldn't consider that they are around with a frequency that would lend itself to the description of the things you are trying to support. The additional issue I see here is, even for those that I may see somewhat frequently, how would the use of this app get into their cell phones and have me listed as a possible contact? This is a fundamental question I have in your description.

I don't see how you are building the community you say is benefiting from this app?

We want to do a better job of creating a sense of community in our immediate local area. We live in an age when the increasing expectation that any such cohesion involves some digital communication. Good or bad, that is how it works, these days.
How does one define “immediate local area”? How does one create this network? I agree that digital communication is essentially ubiquitous. One of the difficulties I'm having with your proposal is this apparent limitation to “immediate local area”. For a sailor - and perhaps we are not a good market for you - what we do (at least what I do) is sail a fair distance from my “immediate local area”. That's the beauty of having a sailboat. I can take my sailboat and go sail somewhere and I have my “house” with me. I can go sail to places “far from the maddening crowd” or go to a neighboring marina for festivities or events if I'm interested in that. I am mostly sailing sailing to destinations that would be outside what I'm previewing you've defined as “immediate local area”.

Part of belonging to a community is that we help each other out. It is important, even if we never use it, to feel like you do have support in the community, if you need it.
Ways I, personally, would use this app:
  • "Hey, I am at my boat and need to turn her around in her slip. Anyone lend a hand?"

This would never be an aspect of this application I would use. First, I would likely never ask for help in this, but if I were to want help, what I'm going to do is look around and see who is walking around and ask them if they would lend me a hand. Often, just by starting to do this, if someone is nearby they will ask me if I need help. This example does not seem “functional”...

  • "I brought my Sailrite machine out to the boat today (at the marina) and am done with my project. Anyone need anything while I've got it out?"
Now this seems like a very applicable aspect of this app. In fact if I had said app, I would very likely use it. However, the structure of how you have it positioned, would not be how I would use it. Rather than say, hey I'm done, but it's still set up anyone want help? I would instead prior to setting up to run my project announce that I will be setting up and doing work with my sailrite on said day, and if anyone has projects they might need help with, let me know.

One of the underlying themes that seems to run through a lot of your proposed applications is an immediacy that think is misplaced. In some areas, like hey I'm having a BBQ, it may be good, but in others it seems that it is not realistic.

  • "We are anchored over near Fairhaven and just blew our spare cooling belt. LFS has it in stock. Is someone coming this way in the next day or two?"
This one seems complicated. How do you pay for the belt? What happens if whoever goes, picks up the belt, and it's the wrong one? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one...

I have towing insurance and, if I really need a professional, I will call a professional. This isn't for that. The app might be able to give you important phone numbers that you might not have had on-hand. But, that would just be a courtesy. So, let's say I reached out about that belt. As part of the response, the system might offer up other people I could call directly, if I need to. But, the emphasis is on community helping community, first.
While I fully support the sentiment, I struggling around where this would work.

It has obvious (hopefully) uses for things like organized cruises or race nights, where VHF chatter isn't appropriate and most other media (like group text) lacks the ability to include positional information (mapping) and/or filter messages that don't pertain.
I'm not sure how you are thinking to achieve this one. How would your app be beneficial to organized cruises or race nights that makes is special and attractive?

My hope is that yacht and paddling clubs will be among early adopters. Then, we convince clubs to share "channels" to broaden the community and break down some silos.
This one confuses me. At first you are talking about having “immediate local area” application, and now you are talking about breaking down silos...

There are other tools that address this need partially, but none is purpose-built for the on-the-water community. SeaPeople is maybe an exception and I think the comparison is a fair one. Honestly, I think the main differentiators from SeaPeople are:
  • Marketing: We hope to appeal to a broader demographic (in terms of age, personality, etc.) but also highly-localized. That is, it is probably not for anyone outside of about 25-30 mile radius. If it becomes available in the next town over, it will probably be highly-localized to them. There won't be much emphasis placed on joining those two communities in any way, but rather on strengthening each community's local ties.
Help me understand the “appeal to a broader demographic”. As far as I can see, since it's a phone app, you are already limiting your demographics to younger folk.

I already have way too many apps. I have NoForeign Land, Seapeople, Noonsite, Windy, OpenCPN, Navionics, Garmin, CBP-Roam, Marine Traffic, YB Racing, Victron, Iridium Go and these are just the marine specific apps I have on my phone (there actually might be more) just looking at it right now. I've also got WhatsApp, viber, Telegram, facebook, several transportation apps, like uber, bolt some others – I'm tired of looking. I can do my banking throuigh my phone, watch investment crap, a ton more things...

I'm app'd out. If you haven't got an app that really says to me – Wow! This is awesome! I'm not your demographic...
  • Structure: I think we are more focused on deliberate communication, rather than chatter. That is, maybe you want to see who is up for an impromptu BBQ out on the bay. I should be able to choose not to be notified of those sorts of messages/requests. Or, maybe that's the only kind of message I want. The structure puts individuals in better control so that it isn't just more noise that can/should be 99% ignored.
As I listen to this, now it seems that I have to almost be tied to my phone and this app. Because today I'm not up for a BBQ, but next weekend, I'm in the mood. So now I have to do into my phone and this app and decide today what I'm up to doing... Whew... It's not speaking to me...
  • Visibility: It also tells the person reaching out how many people are in the area that are open to receiving that kind of message. No point in a BBQ invitation if no one is nearby who might be open to that.
See above.
  • Local: At least for now, confined to our local area, people can walk right up to the people who built and run the system. It is not some company somewhere else doing who-knows-what with your data, and not interested in your suggestions for improvement. That makes it easier for local clubs to warm to the idea, in some ways. It can be highly customized to fit the community.
Yeah, until ya can't... As in, if this gets off the ground that won't be the case....

Also, WhatsApp was mentioned, and it is often used in ways that overlap what this system would do. I, personally, will never install WhatsApp or any Meta product. It is the burden of knowledge of how the company runs. I think it is problematic to require folks to install it if they want to participate in the reindeer games with everyone else. It is a good example, however, of our assertion that people use the tools they are most familiar with.
I don't disagree with you, it's just that there are far too many people that I stay in touch with that use this app and is the only way to communicate with them. So while I may wish to drop WhatsApp – I prefer to keep contact with those folk that do use it. Some of them are very close friends – indeed – some of my closest friends...

Importantly, our system will support an optional SMS (text messaging) interface. So, if you don't have a data signal or just don't want to install the app, you can still participate.
The new iPhones and Droids now do this. In fact, they are looking at now being a replacement for like the inreach, iridium Go, and those devices that were directly aimed at off shore SMS communication. You can do that now with the more recent cell phones.

Yes, this still requires a signal and, no, this is not always available. But, this isn't for every possible situation. It isn't meant to be a tool you rely on in remote areas, or an emergency hailing tool, or any application where a lack of signal would be particularly problematic. Nearly all boats on the water in our region at any given moment are well within cell range. I actually suspect it will get a big chunk of its use just at the marina. And, it probably won't be particularly useful outside of our bay. But, 90% (completely made up number) of all on-the-water activity of people in this area takes place in the bay.
Actually the new SMS through the satellite system available on the modern cell phones do not have this limitation.

Hopefully, that is a better explanation than I offered, previously.
If it still isn't for you, that's completely fine. Like I've said, it probably isn't really for me, either. That is, if I didn't build it, I'm not sure I would use it. But, we're getting really strong feedback from people who believe they would. I'm trying to understand what people do and don't want, so we can make a better system.
I'm not saying yet if it is or is not for me. It is unlikely, but it depends upon what you actually do with it. If it makes me go Wow! Awesome! - Heck I'll get it...

dj