All the pins on my standing rigging are held in place with SS cotter pins. I raise and lower my mast quite often and was wondering why SS 'D' rings wouldn't work just as well. They are 3/8 pins for the shrouds and back stay. The cotter pins are throw-away after each use and the rings could be reused. I knew this knowledgeable group would have an opinion. Thanks Ward
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E
Ed
My guess is...
If doesn't matter if cotter pins get deformed, since they get replaced each time the mast is lowered. If "D" rings get deformed, they may jam, which may make taking them off a real chore. :^( ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
If doesn't matter if cotter pins get deformed, since they get replaced each time the mast is lowered. If "D" rings get deformed, they may jam, which may make taking them off a real chore. :^( ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
M
Mike
I agree with you Ward
I use those things that look like double circles (is that a d ring?) instead of cotter pins. Much easier to deal with and reuse.
I use those things that look like double circles (is that a d ring?) instead of cotter pins. Much easier to deal with and reuse.
J
Joe Ford
cotter rings...
I used cotter rings on my Cat 27's standing rigging but switched back to pins. The advantage to pins is they can be easily removed. Rings, especially when imbedded inside a turnbuckle, can be a pain. Most people, myself included, install the pins incorrectly. The pins should be trimmed so that they are only 2-3 time the diameter of the cable. After the pin is inserted through the eye they should be slightly bent, just enough to keep them from coming out. It also makes them easy to re-use. Rigger's tape is then wrapped around the turnbuckle to protect the pin's ends from scratching anything. This is standard practice for all coastal and offshore sailing. That being said, on a trailerable boat I would probably revert to cotter rings just so I wouldn't have to tape and un-tape. On my Nacra, I use stainless hitch pins to clip the rudders, a locking pin for the forestay, and cotter rings for the shrouds. The shrouds are not disconnected for trailering, if they were I would use the locking type pins. There are no turnbuckles on that boat, but rather shroud adjusters. Locking pins and shroud adjusters may be a vialble option for you. Next time you are in the marina, take a walk around and look at some other boats for ideas. If you aren't sure what some of this hardware is, get a copy of a good marine catalogue so you can see a picture, rather than rely on a description.
I used cotter rings on my Cat 27's standing rigging but switched back to pins. The advantage to pins is they can be easily removed. Rings, especially when imbedded inside a turnbuckle, can be a pain. Most people, myself included, install the pins incorrectly. The pins should be trimmed so that they are only 2-3 time the diameter of the cable. After the pin is inserted through the eye they should be slightly bent, just enough to keep them from coming out. It also makes them easy to re-use. Rigger's tape is then wrapped around the turnbuckle to protect the pin's ends from scratching anything. This is standard practice for all coastal and offshore sailing. That being said, on a trailerable boat I would probably revert to cotter rings just so I wouldn't have to tape and un-tape. On my Nacra, I use stainless hitch pins to clip the rudders, a locking pin for the forestay, and cotter rings for the shrouds. The shrouds are not disconnected for trailering, if they were I would use the locking type pins. There are no turnbuckles on that boat, but rather shroud adjusters. Locking pins and shroud adjusters may be a vialble option for you. Next time you are in the marina, take a walk around and look at some other boats for ideas. If you aren't sure what some of this hardware is, get a copy of a good marine catalogue so you can see a picture, rather than rely on a description.
D
Dave
Aerospace Specifications
Installation of cotter pins for a boat's standing rigging should be done in accordance with aerospace standards and believe me the ends of the pin are bent farther than "just enough to keep them from falling out." I would not take a chance with something as critical as holding up my mast. I also use cotter rings for my rigging. dave
Installation of cotter pins for a boat's standing rigging should be done in accordance with aerospace standards and believe me the ends of the pin are bent farther than "just enough to keep them from falling out." I would not take a chance with something as critical as holding up my mast. I also use cotter rings for my rigging. dave
C
Chuck
Check with the trailer sailer gang
to see what they use. They can't be using cotter pins every day.
to see what they use. They can't be using cotter pins every day.
W
Ward
Thanks Everyone
As usual, I can rely on everyone here for advice. My take-away is .... There is no technical reason to shy away from cotter rings. (Sorry I called them 'D' rings Old backpacking habits die hard) And Dave you are right about cotter pin specs. I was in a nuclear field in the military and they were VERY picky on how a cotter pin should be installed. You would certainly never reuse one. As for wheather joe is correct for useage on rigging, I will defer cause I don't know the answer Thanks again guys Ward
As usual, I can rely on everyone here for advice. My take-away is .... There is no technical reason to shy away from cotter rings. (Sorry I called them 'D' rings Old backpacking habits die hard) And Dave you are right about cotter pin specs. I was in a nuclear field in the military and they were VERY picky on how a cotter pin should be installed. You would certainly never reuse one. As for wheather joe is correct for useage on rigging, I will defer cause I don't know the answer Thanks again guys Ward
B
Bob
Rings can sometimes
be deformed by catching on something as it passes by, say a sheet under load. I have seem many rings so tweaked, and I wouldn't want my rig dependent on whether they might rotate and fall out. When I use rings on shroud pins, I tape them too. A properly installed cotter pin will not come out unless you want it to, and then it will be relatively easy to pull out as well - ends should be clipped and bent apart so the cotter is tight in the hole, but not wrapped back around the pin. That way, if you need to pull it in a hurry, you can.
be deformed by catching on something as it passes by, say a sheet under load. I have seem many rings so tweaked, and I wouldn't want my rig dependent on whether they might rotate and fall out. When I use rings on shroud pins, I tape them too. A properly installed cotter pin will not come out unless you want it to, and then it will be relatively easy to pull out as well - ends should be clipped and bent apart so the cotter is tight in the hole, but not wrapped back around the pin. That way, if you need to pull it in a hurry, you can.
P
Peter J. Brennan
Rings are not secure
They can rotate themsleves right out of the pin, usually at the most inopportune time. They can also catch on things and get deformed or pulled out. I use only cotter pins bent enough to be secure but not so far they can't instantly be pulled.
They can rotate themsleves right out of the pin, usually at the most inopportune time. They can also catch on things and get deformed or pulled out. I use only cotter pins bent enough to be secure but not so far they can't instantly be pulled.
J
Joe
Cotter pin tool...
Thanks, Peter and Bob for a much better explanation of a cotter pin's use and installation than I gave. I learned about cotter pins watching a John Rousmaniere video and subsequently switched back to them. I have a cotter pin tool on the boat that is very handy. It's like an awl that's bent 90 deg, you just hook it throught the loop end of the pin and pull for quick removal. Got it at Home Depot, it's in the RIGID screwdriver rack, for $7.00! I also find it useful for many other things, like splicing double braid rope.
Thanks, Peter and Bob for a much better explanation of a cotter pin's use and installation than I gave. I learned about cotter pins watching a John Rousmaniere video and subsequently switched back to them. I have a cotter pin tool on the boat that is very handy. It's like an awl that's bent 90 deg, you just hook it throught the loop end of the pin and pull for quick removal. Got it at Home Depot, it's in the RIGID screwdriver rack, for $7.00! I also find it useful for many other things, like splicing double braid rope.
Roll pins.
... if this is what everyone else is calling 'cotter rings'; I have always known them as 'roll pins'. They are the rings that work on the 'twice-around' principle as with a paper clip. I prefer them for everything. The secret is to use the HEAVY ones for standing rigging and the lighter-gauge ones for things like blocks and tack shackles, etc. The heavy-gauge ones are recognised because they pretty much fill up the whole hole in the clevis pin and therefore do not really go twice around. They should be taped as with cotter pins but are infinitely easier to get off, even with bare hands, than a cotter pin (even one bent 'only enough to keep it in place'). They can be reused. They are cheap to replace when lost. A word on this, too-- EVERY yacht ought to have a whole plastic box of these things within ready reach on board. Roll pins by the dozen. Cotter pins too. Shackles. Clevis pins to match every separate size you have on the boat about 2 or 3 times over. Pliers, carpenter knife, diagonals and needlenose (even cheap ones from Wal-Mart like I have). We have a really cool ($11.99) Rubbermaid plastic tools box from Sears built into the bottom of a locker in what used to be the vee berth. The top has two removable partitioned boxes set into it; one holds all the rigging bits and the other screws, nuts, washers, etc. Inside tray has all the important smaller tools (including serrated steak knife for hacking that rigging tape away). Bottom has all the hand-operable tools. Does not corrode, rust, leak, pop open; is installed so it does not shift. Would not be without it. JC
... if this is what everyone else is calling 'cotter rings'; I have always known them as 'roll pins'. They are the rings that work on the 'twice-around' principle as with a paper clip. I prefer them for everything. The secret is to use the HEAVY ones for standing rigging and the lighter-gauge ones for things like blocks and tack shackles, etc. The heavy-gauge ones are recognised because they pretty much fill up the whole hole in the clevis pin and therefore do not really go twice around. They should be taped as with cotter pins but are infinitely easier to get off, even with bare hands, than a cotter pin (even one bent 'only enough to keep it in place'). They can be reused. They are cheap to replace when lost. A word on this, too-- EVERY yacht ought to have a whole plastic box of these things within ready reach on board. Roll pins by the dozen. Cotter pins too. Shackles. Clevis pins to match every separate size you have on the boat about 2 or 3 times over. Pliers, carpenter knife, diagonals and needlenose (even cheap ones from Wal-Mart like I have). We have a really cool ($11.99) Rubbermaid plastic tools box from Sears built into the bottom of a locker in what used to be the vee berth. The top has two removable partitioned boxes set into it; one holds all the rigging bits and the other screws, nuts, washers, etc. Inside tray has all the important smaller tools (including serrated steak knife for hacking that rigging tape away). Bottom has all the hand-operable tools. Does not corrode, rust, leak, pop open; is installed so it does not shift. Would not be without it. JC
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