Can anyone direct me to sailing rules which would allow or not allow the use of a whisker pole when racing "white sails" ie non spinnaker. I've been racing for 4 years in "white sails", always like a few other boats, using a whisker pole downwind and never thought anything about it until last week when someone who had been overtaken complained that poleing out the jib downwind was not allowed. I've read "Racing Rules of Sailing" and found a rule which would apear to allow them but I'm told that those rules only apply to boats running flying sails. Any help appreciated.
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Last I remember the pole has to be "fixed" ...
That is you can't just pole it out with a boat hook and have a crew person hold the pole there. Vic "Seven"
That is you can't just pole it out with a boat hook and have a crew person hold the pole there. Vic "Seven"
Seems like someone trying to win by protest.
One of the reasons that I don't race is that some people take it seriously. I won't go sailing, or play board games with anyone that believes that the outcome is important. As long as nothing gets broke and nobody gets hurt it was a good event.
One of the reasons that I don't race is that some people take it seriously. I won't go sailing, or play board games with anyone that believes that the outcome is important. As long as nothing gets broke and nobody gets hurt it was a good event.
Local Rules
Whom ever is setting the courses, timing the starts, running the races; the Fleet Captain, or Race Committee (if there is one) should let racers know verbally; or in more serrious venues by written sailing instructions, any local modifications of the rules. Vic is correct. Another issue capable of being PROTESTED is an adjustable pole that was extended longer than the 'J' dimension of the boat. A spinnaker pole or whisker pole not longer than the 'J' dimension should be 'legal' if there are no contradicting local rules adopted for a particular race. Over the years I've used an annotated copy of 'Racing Rules of Sailing' by Paul Elvstrom, though I don't have an up to date copy anymore. The applicable section used to be called 'Setting and Sheeting Sails -- Use of Outriggers'; I'd guess it has been revised and re-numbered but it used to read: "A headsail may be sheated or attached at its clew to a spinnaker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set."
Whom ever is setting the courses, timing the starts, running the races; the Fleet Captain, or Race Committee (if there is one) should let racers know verbally; or in more serrious venues by written sailing instructions, any local modifications of the rules. Vic is correct. Another issue capable of being PROTESTED is an adjustable pole that was extended longer than the 'J' dimension of the boat. A spinnaker pole or whisker pole not longer than the 'J' dimension should be 'legal' if there are no contradicting local rules adopted for a particular race. Over the years I've used an annotated copy of 'Racing Rules of Sailing' by Paul Elvstrom, though I don't have an up to date copy anymore. The applicable section used to be called 'Setting and Sheeting Sails -- Use of Outriggers'; I'd guess it has been revised and re-numbered but it used to read: "A headsail may be sheated or attached at its clew to a spinnaker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set."
It's really very simple
The protesting boat must show the rule that you have broken. Failing to file a proper protest within the time limit and flying a protest flag during the race are required by rule. If another boat has a protest with you, he must state the rule or infraction. Some local PHRF committees may make poling out illegal but it must be stated. There is no such rule in US Sailing Racing Rules.
The protesting boat must show the rule that you have broken. Failing to file a proper protest within the time limit and flying a protest flag during the race are required by rule. If another boat has a protest with you, he must state the rule or infraction. Some local PHRF committees may make poling out illegal but it must be stated. There is no such rule in US Sailing Racing Rules.
Racing Rules of Sailing 2005-2008
Hi, See Racing Rules of Sailing 2005-2008 for detail definations- what follows is my summary. See section 50 50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Wisker Poles only one shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use it shall be attached to the foremost mast. 50.3 Use of Outriggers No sail shall be sheeted through an outrigger. An outrigger is any device that can put pressure on a sheet or sail beyond the hull. A headsail can be attached to a spinnaker pole or wisker pole provided a spinnaker is not set. So you can't pole out a head sail unless the pole is attached to the mast. Hope this helps.
Hi, See Racing Rules of Sailing 2005-2008 for detail definations- what follows is my summary. See section 50 50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Wisker Poles only one shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use it shall be attached to the foremost mast. 50.3 Use of Outriggers No sail shall be sheeted through an outrigger. An outrigger is any device that can put pressure on a sheet or sail beyond the hull. A headsail can be attached to a spinnaker pole or wisker pole provided a spinnaker is not set. So you can't pole out a head sail unless the pole is attached to the mast. Hope this helps.
Key clue to this thread...
The end of the 1st paragraph holds the key to this thread: "when someone who had been overtaken complained". It was a race, someone was overtaken, didn't like it and threw something on a wall...hoping it'd stick. It shouldn't have stuck and wouldn't have unless (as noted by others) the pole exceeded the 'J' dimension or was actually a boat hook being held in place by a crew member. The offending crew member, if that was the case, would have been very visible as his/her boat overtook the complaining boat. This speaking from experience, 'cause we got busted on the boat-hook technique (a rule we were truly ignorant of at the time), which was no excuse. Ate the DSQ, pooled our money and had a whisker pole on-board for the next race! Being asked to measure the pole, fully extended, could get dicey... Skippers rarely complain or protest a boat that has finished after they've crossed and can't finish ahead on corrected time. Think of it as a compliment to your racing abilities!
The end of the 1st paragraph holds the key to this thread: "when someone who had been overtaken complained". It was a race, someone was overtaken, didn't like it and threw something on a wall...hoping it'd stick. It shouldn't have stuck and wouldn't have unless (as noted by others) the pole exceeded the 'J' dimension or was actually a boat hook being held in place by a crew member. The offending crew member, if that was the case, would have been very visible as his/her boat overtook the complaining boat. This speaking from experience, 'cause we got busted on the boat-hook technique (a rule we were truly ignorant of at the time), which was no excuse. Ate the DSQ, pooled our money and had a whisker pole on-board for the next race! Being asked to measure the pole, fully extended, could get dicey... Skippers rarely complain or protest a boat that has finished after they've crossed and can't finish ahead on corrected time. Think of it as a compliment to your racing abilities!
Whisker pole can exceed your J dimension.
PHRF allows more than the standard J dimension in the rules. Depends on your jib size -eg - 155 or 175 etc. jib - then your whisker pole can be 80% of the sails total foot length. It is illegal to hold out the jib during a race with a hand held pole - it must be fastened to the mast.
PHRF allows more than the standard J dimension in the rules. Depends on your jib size -eg - 155 or 175 etc. jib - then your whisker pole can be 80% of the sails total foot length. It is illegal to hold out the jib during a race with a hand held pole - it must be fastened to the mast.
So what is the J dimension.
Sorry. I guess this sounds pretty pathetic top some of you guys. Also... the 20% length comment must be a typo, right? Then the pole could only be 3-4 feet long in many cases.
Sorry. I guess this sounds pretty pathetic top some of you guys. Also... the 20% length comment must be a typo, right? Then the pole could only be 3-4 feet long in many cases.
Oops - that should be 80% of the total jib
Standard J is mast to forestay (standard 100% jib). Larger than a 100% jib, then you are allowed a whisker pole up to 80% of the total length of the sail's foot.
Standard J is mast to forestay (standard 100% jib). Larger than a 100% jib, then you are allowed a whisker pole up to 80% of the total length of the sail's foot.
Sorry, jimq26, bue your whisker pole is limited to
your "J" dimension (the distance between the front of the mast and the attachment point of the headstay). SOME one design fleets allow longer whisker poles, and PHRF will allow a longer whisker / spinnaker pole with a handicap penalty (in LMPHRF, it is 3 seconds / mile for each 3% (or less) that the pole exceeds J), but your max whisker pole length without a penalty is the same as your spinnaker pole length and is equal to your "J" dimension (WWW.LMPHRF.org). As for adjustable whisker poles, you CAN use them as long as it is either banded at the maximum extension and / or limited by a mechanical means (such as connecting the ends together at the J dimension with a nonadjustable length of wire). (again, see LMPHRF.ORG) As for citing the exact rule that was broken in a protest, there is NO requirement for the protesting boat to get the rule correct (see The Racing Rules of Sailing), (the protest committee decides which rule (if any) was infringed), but the protesting boat MUST file a valid protest (hail the offending boat, fly the protest flag, and file the written protest within the time limit) for the protest to be heard Steve Alchemist C-320 #909 p.s. my whisker pole is banded while a friend has both banded and limited the extension on his using a wire)
your "J" dimension (the distance between the front of the mast and the attachment point of the headstay). SOME one design fleets allow longer whisker poles, and PHRF will allow a longer whisker / spinnaker pole with a handicap penalty (in LMPHRF, it is 3 seconds / mile for each 3% (or less) that the pole exceeds J), but your max whisker pole length without a penalty is the same as your spinnaker pole length and is equal to your "J" dimension (WWW.LMPHRF.org). As for adjustable whisker poles, you CAN use them as long as it is either banded at the maximum extension and / or limited by a mechanical means (such as connecting the ends together at the J dimension with a nonadjustable length of wire). (again, see LMPHRF.ORG) As for citing the exact rule that was broken in a protest, there is NO requirement for the protesting boat to get the rule correct (see The Racing Rules of Sailing), (the protest committee decides which rule (if any) was infringed), but the protesting boat MUST file a valid protest (hail the offending boat, fly the protest flag, and file the written protest within the time limit) for the protest to be heard Steve Alchemist C-320 #909 p.s. my whisker pole is banded while a friend has both banded and limited the extension on his using a wire)
Lake Michigan PHRF Hates White Sails
Took the opportunity to go to the LMPHRF website and checked out their rules. Bummer. Whereas the Equipment Rules of Sailing regulate spinnaker poles to the “J” dimension and allow whisker poles at any length, LMPHRF includes half the mast’s cross-section in the spinnaker pole measurement (even though “J” is measured from the front of the mast). And they force that same measurement down to whisker poles (which, by definition, can only be used on jibs/genoas). That means anybody using a genoa larger than a 110 is screwed. Because a headsail is connected to the stem and headstay, a pole greater than 100% of LP is counterproductive. Rather than projecting the sail perpendicular to the wind, the sail would then be angled away from the wind. Most people set their whisker poles to 80/90% of LP so the pole can be squared to the wind and project a slight belly in the headsail. Ultimately, one must inquire locally for how rules are applied in their area. For example, Northern California YRA allows whisker poles of any length.
Took the opportunity to go to the LMPHRF website and checked out their rules. Bummer. Whereas the Equipment Rules of Sailing regulate spinnaker poles to the “J” dimension and allow whisker poles at any length, LMPHRF includes half the mast’s cross-section in the spinnaker pole measurement (even though “J” is measured from the front of the mast). And they force that same measurement down to whisker poles (which, by definition, can only be used on jibs/genoas). That means anybody using a genoa larger than a 110 is screwed. Because a headsail is connected to the stem and headstay, a pole greater than 100% of LP is counterproductive. Rather than projecting the sail perpendicular to the wind, the sail would then be angled away from the wind. Most people set their whisker poles to 80/90% of LP so the pole can be squared to the wind and project a slight belly in the headsail. Ultimately, one must inquire locally for how rules are applied in their area. For example, Northern California YRA allows whisker poles of any length.
Sorry alchemist - not in most PHRF groups.
PHRF-LO - one of the larger PHRF groups in North America - clearly spells out that the maximum length of a whisker pole (WPL) without penalty for jibs 125 or less is the actual J measurement. For jibs over 125, the WPL is to be .8 x LP. There are handicap adjustments for those using whisker poles longer than shown above. The LP is shortest distance from projected intersection of the leech and the foot of a jib to the luff in a direction 90 degrees to the luff.
PHRF-LO - one of the larger PHRF groups in North America - clearly spells out that the maximum length of a whisker pole (WPL) without penalty for jibs 125 or less is the actual J measurement. For jibs over 125, the WPL is to be .8 x LP. There are handicap adjustments for those using whisker poles longer than shown above. The LP is shortest distance from projected intersection of the leech and the foot of a jib to the luff in a direction 90 degrees to the luff.
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