Having a hard time going to windward on my 222 O'Day. I do fine on broad reach and downwind but I can't keep up with the keel O'Days. Catalinas, Hunters,and other brands of keel boats. So in your opinion what is the best style boat to go to windward? Full keel full fin keel swing keel shoal keel with centerboard shoal keel WO centerboard centerboard only dagger board My 222 O'Day is a shoal draft with centerboard.
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What condition are your sails in?
Chuck: What sort of condition are your sails in? This can/will make a tremendous difference in your ability to point too. Just remember if you get a boat with a big keel, it can become a nightmare to trailer.... but they do sail better.
Chuck: What sort of condition are your sails in? This can/will make a tremendous difference in your ability to point too. Just remember if you get a boat with a big keel, it can become a nightmare to trailer.... but they do sail better.
yup . the switch blade works fine.
The reason I know is it weights about 60 pounds and is raised up and down by a simple hand held 3/8's braid line and then cleat it off. I have marked this line so as to know four different positions from full up and full down. You can feel the weight in the line. I knew I could count on some answers on this forum as it certainly is a good group . Thanks
The reason I know is it weights about 60 pounds and is raised up and down by a simple hand held 3/8's braid line and then cleat it off. I have marked this line so as to know four different positions from full up and full down. You can feel the weight in the line. I knew I could count on some answers on this forum as it certainly is a good group . Thanks
Long Thin Sails and Keel
A long thin airfoil is more efficent that a shorter fatter airfoil. Full keels have their advantages but going to windward they are relative dogs. A swing keel is relatively long and thin. With any design condition is a factor. The cleaner and smoother the keel the better it functions. Aerodynamic lift depends upon a smooth flow of water or air over the surface. A rough surface creates drag and turbulance which destroys lift. A light coating of frost on an airplane's wing can stop the airplane from flying!!!! Sail condition is also important. If a sail is stretched out of shape it loses windward performance first.
A long thin airfoil is more efficent that a shorter fatter airfoil. Full keels have their advantages but going to windward they are relative dogs. A swing keel is relatively long and thin. With any design condition is a factor. The cleaner and smoother the keel the better it functions. Aerodynamic lift depends upon a smooth flow of water or air over the surface. A rough surface creates drag and turbulance which destroys lift. A light coating of frost on an airplane's wing can stop the airplane from flying!!!! Sail condition is also important. If a sail is stretched out of shape it loses windward performance first.
PS
I am really bored engineering student.. Oh! in my opinion, for windward-ness the best trailerable design is the shoal keel with a built in centerboard. The best non-trailerable is the deep fin.
I am really bored engineering student.. Oh! in my opinion, for windward-ness the best trailerable design is the shoal keel with a built in centerboard. The best non-trailerable is the deep fin.
Swing Keel not as efficent.
Remember that with the fixed keel boats more of the ballast weight is in the keel so they have a lower center of gravity and also they don't have the swing keel "trunk" which adds a lot of surface area while contributing little to windward performance. As SA increases drag increases. A long leading edge increases efficency. So for any given SA a long thin airfoil is more efficent. Look at gliders they have extremely long leading edges. Low center of gravity just makes the boat stiffer which increases sail efficency. That is why some race boats have big bulbs of lead at the deep end of their keels.
Remember that with the fixed keel boats more of the ballast weight is in the keel so they have a lower center of gravity and also they don't have the swing keel "trunk" which adds a lot of surface area while contributing little to windward performance. As SA increases drag increases. A long leading edge increases efficency. So for any given SA a long thin airfoil is more efficent. Look at gliders they have extremely long leading edges. Low center of gravity just makes the boat stiffer which increases sail efficency. That is why some race boats have big bulbs of lead at the deep end of their keels.
Performance
While bringing my boat from Huntington to East Hampton in very strong winds last year, I noticed at one point we had slowed down. After looking at various alternatives, I discovered we were dragging a bucket -- literally! I have a line attached to a bucket and it had slipped overboard through the open transom and was dragging behind the boat. Easiest performance improvement I ever had. Bent the bucket handle, though.
While bringing my boat from Huntington to East Hampton in very strong winds last year, I noticed at one point we had slowed down. After looking at various alternatives, I discovered we were dragging a bucket -- literally! I have a line attached to a bucket and it had slipped overboard through the open transom and was dragging behind the boat. Easiest performance improvement I ever had. Bent the bucket handle, though.
Change to a masthead rig??
You might be able to get a boost in performance by changing to a mast head rig. A larger headsail shouldn't hurt. My boat won't go to windward very well without the headsail. I have a masthead rig. If you aren't doing it now be sure to raise your keel going downwind. In my previous boats raising the centerboard or swing keel provided a substantial increase in speed going downwind. I could sail a beam reach without the daggerboard. Sure I slipped more but overall I was faster.
You might be able to get a boost in performance by changing to a mast head rig. A larger headsail shouldn't hurt. My boat won't go to windward very well without the headsail. I have a masthead rig. If you aren't doing it now be sure to raise your keel going downwind. In my previous boats raising the centerboard or swing keel provided a substantial increase in speed going downwind. I could sail a beam reach without the daggerboard. Sure I slipped more but overall I was faster.
Can ya move your fairleads aft more?
It could be your slot is too large. Anything you can do to move the apparent wind forward is faster.
It could be your slot is too large. Anything you can do to move the apparent wind forward is faster.
sails
Hello, A deep fin boat will go to weather best of all the other boats you listed. For your boat in particular, how are your sail positioned? I recently started crewing on a C&C 34. The owner is very experienced and the boat is will set up. On windward legs he has the main sheet as tight as it can go, and then he moves the traveler to windward about 4 inches. This brings the boom right in to the center of the boat. The headsail is brought in so that it is about 1" off the spreader (for the #1 and #2, I have not used the #3). When set up like he can sail to 30 degrees off the wind and at very good speed. My boat is an O'day 35 with shoal keel and old sails. I can only point to about 35 degrees, and speed is significantly less than if I sail at 40 degrees. I am going to try a few things to improve pointing ability, but at this time I am limited by old sails (original 20 year of 150 genoa) and the jib leads are out pretty far. Good luck, Barry
Hello, A deep fin boat will go to weather best of all the other boats you listed. For your boat in particular, how are your sail positioned? I recently started crewing on a C&C 34. The owner is very experienced and the boat is will set up. On windward legs he has the main sheet as tight as it can go, and then he moves the traveler to windward about 4 inches. This brings the boom right in to the center of the boat. The headsail is brought in so that it is about 1" off the spreader (for the #1 and #2, I have not used the #3). When set up like he can sail to 30 degrees off the wind and at very good speed. My boat is an O'day 35 with shoal keel and old sails. I can only point to about 35 degrees, and speed is significantly less than if I sail at 40 degrees. I am going to try a few things to improve pointing ability, but at this time I am limited by old sails (original 20 year of 150 genoa) and the jib leads are out pretty far. Good luck, Barry
Randy a Boat Motoring is a motorboat!!!!
Once you start the motor you are a power boat even if you have sails up!!! Barry I seriously doubt that a sailboat can go 30 degrees off true wind. Maybe off apparent wind. The problem is that at a certain point the keel is slipping leeward so much that even if the boat is pointing well the track through the water is much less. Exactly the same thing happens flying a plane. You have a maximum climb rate at a given speed. Making the airplane point up more can actually make you climb more slowly. Pull it way too much and the wing will stall and the plane fall out of the sky. Of course a boat doesn't fall out of the water it just slides to the leeward more once the keel stalls. Stalling means that the water(air) is no longer flowing smoothly over the surface producing lift. Instead there is a lot of turbulance. The keel is then acting like a board stuck in the water instead of like a hydrofoil. A board will slow your drift to the leeward but a hydrofoil acts like a board plus the hydrodynamic shape actually pulls the keel up wind. Try this set a waypoint to the windward in your GPS and slowly try pointing higher and higher and see the speed made good drop off. Pick a waypoint far away to make angle towards the waypoint not important. I learned this on my Laser going upstream in a tidal creek. Watching a landmark I noted what I was doing and my movement relative to the landmark.
Once you start the motor you are a power boat even if you have sails up!!! Barry I seriously doubt that a sailboat can go 30 degrees off true wind. Maybe off apparent wind. The problem is that at a certain point the keel is slipping leeward so much that even if the boat is pointing well the track through the water is much less. Exactly the same thing happens flying a plane. You have a maximum climb rate at a given speed. Making the airplane point up more can actually make you climb more slowly. Pull it way too much and the wing will stall and the plane fall out of the sky. Of course a boat doesn't fall out of the water it just slides to the leeward more once the keel stalls. Stalling means that the water(air) is no longer flowing smoothly over the surface producing lift. Instead there is a lot of turbulance. The keel is then acting like a board stuck in the water instead of like a hydrofoil. A board will slow your drift to the leeward but a hydrofoil acts like a board plus the hydrodynamic shape actually pulls the keel up wind. Try this set a waypoint to the windward in your GPS and slowly try pointing higher and higher and see the speed made good drop off. Pick a waypoint far away to make angle towards the waypoint not important. I learned this on my Laser going upstream in a tidal creek. Watching a landmark I noted what I was doing and my movement relative to the landmark.
Several factors enter in
Is the bottom of your boat clean? (looks great in the photo - is it like that now?) Is your centerboard shaped for hydrodynamic efficiency (reasonable lift without lots of drag)? The board in the photo is squared off on the bottom, though it hangs at an angle. That means the bottom 10 to 12 inches don't do much for lift, and cetainly create drag and turbulence. Are you actually hurting yourself by trying to point too high? - if you pinch the boat, the lessened speed will cost lift to windward (board not moving as fast through the water), thus hurting you two ways. Certainly a decent 27-foot anything should outsail your 222, and that particular one handicaps about a half-minute a mile faster than your boat - that's not a fair comparison. He should eat you alive with his taller mast, greater sail area, and waterline. Are you trimming sails efficiently for the conditions? Your boat is a trailer sailer, with everything that implies, while the Tartan does not make those compromises.
Is the bottom of your boat clean? (looks great in the photo - is it like that now?) Is your centerboard shaped for hydrodynamic efficiency (reasonable lift without lots of drag)? The board in the photo is squared off on the bottom, though it hangs at an angle. That means the bottom 10 to 12 inches don't do much for lift, and cetainly create drag and turbulence. Are you actually hurting yourself by trying to point too high? - if you pinch the boat, the lessened speed will cost lift to windward (board not moving as fast through the water), thus hurting you two ways. Certainly a decent 27-foot anything should outsail your 222, and that particular one handicaps about a half-minute a mile faster than your boat - that's not a fair comparison. He should eat you alive with his taller mast, greater sail area, and waterline. Are you trimming sails efficiently for the conditions? Your boat is a trailer sailer, with everything that implies, while the Tartan does not make those compromises.
O'Day won't point
I second Captain Barry's recommendations as far as moving the traveler (Do you have one?) to weather so the boom is over the centerline or even a little to windward. By the way, Barry, hope that whatever kept you from the rOnDAYvous has gone away. See you next year! My O22 with the box keel had no idea what making progress to weather was-in light winds, sit back and watch the lobster pot buoys pass you. LWL and a little depth conquers all. Bill Coxe, O40 Kukulcán, New London, CT
I second Captain Barry's recommendations as far as moving the traveler (Do you have one?) to weather so the boom is over the centerline or even a little to windward. By the way, Barry, hope that whatever kept you from the rOnDAYvous has gone away. See you next year! My O22 with the box keel had no idea what making progress to weather was-in light winds, sit back and watch the lobster pot buoys pass you. LWL and a little depth conquers all. Bill Coxe, O40 Kukulcán, New London, CT
A couple of things I've learned on my 222.
Chuck, I think I've read that you had added a traveler. That's good. I emulate one on mine with a rigid vang but with the offset back stay I point higher on a port tack than a starboard one. If you have a furler on the forestay that's a disadvantage. With the fractional rig the upper stays give you forestay tension. Falling off of the head sail luff will really affect pointing ability. The original chainplate set-up can't be safely tensioned enough for a good headstay. I've modified mine for more strength but I hesitate to to really tension up the rig. I've left the jib in it's original set-up on it's "inner stay" (the original wire luff furler). That way I can winch it taught for a nice firm luff. It makes a big difference. You can also play with the mast rake. Keep adding aft rake until weather helm becomes objectionable then back off a little. This took me a few tuning sessions but the end result did make a difference. You will end up with the lower stays just tensioned enough for your lower mast pre-bend and to stop any pumping (they won't be very tight compared to the uppers). And your back stay will just pre-bend the top 1/3 of the mast also not that tight compared to the forestay. I agree with the rest of the points made here. Not the best race boat but fun and easy to maintain. Good luck.
Chuck, I think I've read that you had added a traveler. That's good. I emulate one on mine with a rigid vang but with the offset back stay I point higher on a port tack than a starboard one. If you have a furler on the forestay that's a disadvantage. With the fractional rig the upper stays give you forestay tension. Falling off of the head sail luff will really affect pointing ability. The original chainplate set-up can't be safely tensioned enough for a good headstay. I've modified mine for more strength but I hesitate to to really tension up the rig. I've left the jib in it's original set-up on it's "inner stay" (the original wire luff furler). That way I can winch it taught for a nice firm luff. It makes a big difference. You can also play with the mast rake. Keep adding aft rake until weather helm becomes objectionable then back off a little. This took me a few tuning sessions but the end result did make a difference. You will end up with the lower stays just tensioned enough for your lower mast pre-bend and to stop any pumping (they won't be very tight compared to the uppers). And your back stay will just pre-bend the top 1/3 of the mast also not that tight compared to the forestay. I agree with the rest of the points made here. Not the best race boat but fun and easy to maintain. Good luck.
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