Although the harbor is solid right now, I'm trying to figure out how to improve my control downwind...The challenge is that waves on the great lakes are very steep and close together: when sailing downwind, even 3-4 foot waves will make my wing keel C36 surf and, as the wave passes under her, the helm gets really twicthy...steering downwind, broad reach or run, requires rather aerobic helmsmanship. I've been reading that a small drogue will help prevent the high-speed surges and reduce the "twitchiness" but I'm struggling to find the right size. The size charts I've seen all assume you want a drogue for control in massive storms and want to limit your speed to just a couple of knots....I want my normal speeds, but not the wild surfing at 10+ knots and more stable steering under more routine conditions. Does anybody have experience or suggestins for a smallish drogue that will do the job here? A related question: If I'm towing a drogue, are there any special lights/dayshapes I should be showing? It seems like there ought to be but I can't find any listed...
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Series Drogue
What you should try is a series drogue. I recently built one for storm purposes but because this is made up of over a hundred small diameter cones it can be adjusted to any length and number of cones you want...it will provide complete adjustability for your purpose. You can buy the required materials from Sailrite. You probably only need a small amount of resistance so I'd start with say 10 cones and you can add more if you need them. dave
What you should try is a series drogue. I recently built one for storm purposes but because this is made up of over a hundred small diameter cones it can be adjusted to any length and number of cones you want...it will provide complete adjustability for your purpose. You can buy the required materials from Sailrite. You probably only need a small amount of resistance so I'd start with say 10 cones and you can add more if you need them. dave
Dave explain further
Dave, I am picking up my new 426 in June at Sailing Specialties and will live aboard all summer with no specific port and also feel I need to have a drouge for storm purposes. Not sure about the type you have mentioned or how it works - please educate me. Ed
Dave, I am picking up my new 426 in June at Sailing Specialties and will live aboard all summer with no specific port and also feel I need to have a drouge for storm purposes. Not sure about the type you have mentioned or how it works - please educate me. Ed
Study the "Drag Device Data base"
Ed, You are quite right to take the selection of a suitable drag device quite serious. Of all the factors that regularly return in the critical analyses of ill-fated fleets (e.g. Sydney-Hobart or the Queen's Birthday Storm) the lack of a suitable drag device on board -- or the failure to deploy it -- appears to be the most constant shortcoming cited by the various Boards of Inquiry. Also, the so-called "series drogue" appears to be one of the best. However, for a 426 with a lot of windage you are going to need a heck of a lot of cones and you will end up with an enormous pile of rode and cones. Anyone who is serious about the selection and possible use of drogues and/or sea anchors should read Victor Shane's "Drag Device Data Base" with more than 100 critically analyzed reports from users on a broad range of vessels and under all sorts of emergency conditions. Other than that it is just the same as with opinions on anchors, rigs, keels, etc., namely "every sailor has one". Very few sailors, however, have actually deployed and retrieved drag devices "in anger". And even those who did can only tell you what worked for them THAT time on THAT boat. Even the Drag Device Data Base will certainly leave some questions unanswered, though. So, in the end, it is YOUR choice, and no one else's.... Best of Luck with the Delivery! Flying Dutchman
Ed, You are quite right to take the selection of a suitable drag device quite serious. Of all the factors that regularly return in the critical analyses of ill-fated fleets (e.g. Sydney-Hobart or the Queen's Birthday Storm) the lack of a suitable drag device on board -- or the failure to deploy it -- appears to be the most constant shortcoming cited by the various Boards of Inquiry. Also, the so-called "series drogue" appears to be one of the best. However, for a 426 with a lot of windage you are going to need a heck of a lot of cones and you will end up with an enormous pile of rode and cones. Anyone who is serious about the selection and possible use of drogues and/or sea anchors should read Victor Shane's "Drag Device Data Base" with more than 100 critically analyzed reports from users on a broad range of vessels and under all sorts of emergency conditions. Other than that it is just the same as with opinions on anchors, rigs, keels, etc., namely "every sailor has one". Very few sailors, however, have actually deployed and retrieved drag devices "in anger". And even those who did can only tell you what worked for them THAT time on THAT boat. Even the Drag Device Data Base will certainly leave some questions unanswered, though. So, in the end, it is YOUR choice, and no one else's.... Best of Luck with the Delivery! Flying Dutchman
Ed - Series Drogue Explanation
Ed. The Sailrite web page has a complete technical paper from the navy on this device. Do not listen to naysayers that claim it will be too much rode and too many cones. Briefly, it is made up of a very long length of line sized for your boat. For my 35 I used 5/8, but the diameter can be reduced as the line gets longer as the line near the end has much less stress than where it attaches to the boat. The cones are about 8 to 10 inches in diameter and are made of rip stop nylon. They effectively take water and funnel it through a small opening (just like a funnel) which creates drag. For my boat I have about 250 feet of line and about 100 cones. It fits neatly in a plastic box ready for deployment. On the end of the line you attach a ten to fifteen pound weight (scuba weights or in my case I used a mushroom anchor) this keeps the line in the water. Since it is so long it doesn't fatigue by constantly opening and closing like a parachute. The length insures some of the cones will always be under stress. The literature says to deploy it from the stern using a bridle which is how mine is set up. I see no reason it couldn't be deployed from the bow if you wish. Supposedly it will prevent pitchpoling. I needed a drogue as part of the safety equipment for the marion to bermuda race (yet to enter) so I made this instead of buying a parachute. Easy to make and it sharpened my skills at doing eyesplices. I bought remnant lenghts of line from defender so I got good deals on the line, putting in my own eyesplices saved me further. I have never used it but am confident when I need it I will be very pleased. For your purpose you could use a 50 to 100 foot length of line and just a few cones and add more until you get the amount of drag you want. Check out the sailrite web page for the article. Best regards. Dave
Ed. The Sailrite web page has a complete technical paper from the navy on this device. Do not listen to naysayers that claim it will be too much rode and too many cones. Briefly, it is made up of a very long length of line sized for your boat. For my 35 I used 5/8, but the diameter can be reduced as the line gets longer as the line near the end has much less stress than where it attaches to the boat. The cones are about 8 to 10 inches in diameter and are made of rip stop nylon. They effectively take water and funnel it through a small opening (just like a funnel) which creates drag. For my boat I have about 250 feet of line and about 100 cones. It fits neatly in a plastic box ready for deployment. On the end of the line you attach a ten to fifteen pound weight (scuba weights or in my case I used a mushroom anchor) this keeps the line in the water. Since it is so long it doesn't fatigue by constantly opening and closing like a parachute. The length insures some of the cones will always be under stress. The literature says to deploy it from the stern using a bridle which is how mine is set up. I see no reason it couldn't be deployed from the bow if you wish. Supposedly it will prevent pitchpoling. I needed a drogue as part of the safety equipment for the marion to bermuda race (yet to enter) so I made this instead of buying a parachute. Easy to make and it sharpened my skills at doing eyesplices. I bought remnant lenghts of line from defender so I got good deals on the line, putting in my own eyesplices saved me further. I have never used it but am confident when I need it I will be very pleased. For your purpose you could use a 50 to 100 foot length of line and just a few cones and add more until you get the amount of drag you want. Check out the sailrite web page for the article. Best regards. Dave
Jordan Series Drogue Report
The report on the Jordan Series Drogue can be found at several web sites including http://www.multihullboatbuilder.com/droguereport/ It is published by the US Coast Guard (not the Navy) who participated in the development of the Jordan Drogue. The conclusion in the report is that virtually no drogue streamed from the bow can hold a modern sailboat bows on to the waves. A drogue streamed astern is much more effective and the series drogue is more effective than a single drag device. It should be noted that in all tests including in this report and in the new edition of "Heavy Weather Sailing" all models were capsized in severe waves except those towing a drogue.
The report on the Jordan Series Drogue can be found at several web sites including http://www.multihullboatbuilder.com/droguereport/ It is published by the US Coast Guard (not the Navy) who participated in the development of the Jordan Drogue. The conclusion in the report is that virtually no drogue streamed from the bow can hold a modern sailboat bows on to the waves. A drogue streamed astern is much more effective and the series drogue is more effective than a single drag device. It should be noted that in all tests including in this report and in the new edition of "Heavy Weather Sailing" all models were capsized in severe waves except those towing a drogue.
Drouge attachment points
From the USCG Drouge report: "The drogue is deployed from the stern and attached to the boat with a bridle. The bridle performs two functions; it provides a turning moment to keep the boat stern to the wave, and it divides the total load and feeds the load into strong points at the corners of the transom. The attachments at each side of the transom should be designed to take 70% of the design load." So, pay close attention to the stern cleats, etc. that you'll use for attachment points. That "design load" they talk about is about the same as the boat's displacement. Read section 6.0 of that report carefully. --Ron
From the USCG Drouge report: "The drogue is deployed from the stern and attached to the boat with a bridle. The bridle performs two functions; it provides a turning moment to keep the boat stern to the wave, and it divides the total load and feeds the load into strong points at the corners of the transom. The attachments at each side of the transom should be designed to take 70% of the design load." So, pay close attention to the stern cleats, etc. that you'll use for attachment points. That "design load" they talk about is about the same as the boat's displacement. Read section 6.0 of that report carefully. --Ron
Drag drogue, not sea anchor
The Coast Guard study was for a sailboat lying ahull and using the drogue to prevent breaking wave capsizing the sailing yachts. The CG conclusion was a drogue type sea anchor was best used on the stern of a modern sailboat. I thought that the original question was what size drag device is needed to reduce boat speed when you are running in a following sea. If that is the case, the amount of drag needed is only to reduce the boat speed by 3 or 5 knots instead of lying ahull with minimum boat speed in a following sea. If you want a drag device to provide better helm response while running in a following sea, than you are talking about using a "Gale Rider" or "Delta Drogue” by Para-Tech Engineering. These drag devices increases the drag on your sailboat to prevent you from having to "S" curve on the front of the wave. The drag drogue helps you reduce speed and avoid hitting the backside of the wave in front of you as you surf down the face of the wave. The amount of stress on your stern cleats will be significantly less than a sea anchor drogue. There shouldn't be any kind of lights or flags, since you are still sailing and just using a drag drogue to slow you down in a following sea; you not at anchor and you are not towing another vessel. Fair Winds. Clyde
The Coast Guard study was for a sailboat lying ahull and using the drogue to prevent breaking wave capsizing the sailing yachts. The CG conclusion was a drogue type sea anchor was best used on the stern of a modern sailboat. I thought that the original question was what size drag device is needed to reduce boat speed when you are running in a following sea. If that is the case, the amount of drag needed is only to reduce the boat speed by 3 or 5 knots instead of lying ahull with minimum boat speed in a following sea. If you want a drag device to provide better helm response while running in a following sea, than you are talking about using a "Gale Rider" or "Delta Drogue” by Para-Tech Engineering. These drag devices increases the drag on your sailboat to prevent you from having to "S" curve on the front of the wave. The drag drogue helps you reduce speed and avoid hitting the backside of the wave in front of you as you surf down the face of the wave. The amount of stress on your stern cleats will be significantly less than a sea anchor drogue. There shouldn't be any kind of lights or flags, since you are still sailing and just using a drag drogue to slow you down in a following sea; you not at anchor and you are not towing another vessel. Fair Winds. Clyde
DDDB is only a start...
Colin, the advice to consult Victor Shane's Drag Design Data Base (latest edition, as the most value comes from the individual incidents reported to him, and they build over time) is a good one...but beware of accepting the generic advice and, in particular, notice how the many incidents lack a common outcome. Personally, I think the series (Jordan) drogue is damn dangerous and the wrong approach for a conventional sailboat offshore...but that opinion comes from reading actual incidents, some of which turned out fine. If this is really an important issue for you, I'd recommend you supplement Shane's work with some other references (e.g. VanDorn's Oceanography & Seamanship - a superb reference - and Anchors & Anchoring by Earl Hinz, also a worthy purchase given its recent updating). This is not a slam-dunk puzzle to solve. And my suspicion is that no single solution will suit a given boat in all conditions. Jack
Colin, the advice to consult Victor Shane's Drag Design Data Base (latest edition, as the most value comes from the individual incidents reported to him, and they build over time) is a good one...but beware of accepting the generic advice and, in particular, notice how the many incidents lack a common outcome. Personally, I think the series (Jordan) drogue is damn dangerous and the wrong approach for a conventional sailboat offshore...but that opinion comes from reading actual incidents, some of which turned out fine. If this is really an important issue for you, I'd recommend you supplement Shane's work with some other references (e.g. VanDorn's Oceanography & Seamanship - a superb reference - and Anchors & Anchoring by Earl Hinz, also a worthy purchase given its recent updating). This is not a slam-dunk puzzle to solve. And my suspicion is that no single solution will suit a given boat in all conditions. Jack
Dangerous Drag Drogue?
Why do you think the series drogue is dangerous and the wrong approach for a sailboat offshore? You make this comment with no details to why you formed this opinion. One of the benefits of making the drogue is it forces you to make a bunch of eyesplices so you get to practice. In my case out of necessity I invented the perfect tool for making eyesplices in double braid line. It is in the archives if interested. Dave
Why do you think the series drogue is dangerous and the wrong approach for a sailboat offshore? You make this comment with no details to why you formed this opinion. One of the benefits of making the drogue is it forces you to make a bunch of eyesplices so you get to practice. In my case out of necessity I invented the perfect tool for making eyesplices in double braid line. It is in the archives if interested. Dave
Dangerous because...
Dave, I say 'dangerous' because, depending on the boat, seas, wind & the length and therefore resistance of the series drogue, it is quite easy to end up slowing the boat too much while running before the seas AND the drogue not allowing the boat to change speeds sufficiently to adjust for the larger waves. Especially in this case, but even under all conditions when using a series drogue, the boat is taking the hit right where it's least designed to handle it: into a blunt transom, the flat aft end of the cabin trunk and perhaps even a crew member. A series drogue can work too well, and few boats can withstand this punishment over the course of a lengthy blow. If the intent is to run before big seas with the boat's windage as the only propulsion, then a choice like the Galerider is far safer to the boat & crew, as I see it. I think there are several incidents written up in DDDB IV, as I recall, that illustrate both these points. Jack
Dave, I say 'dangerous' because, depending on the boat, seas, wind & the length and therefore resistance of the series drogue, it is quite easy to end up slowing the boat too much while running before the seas AND the drogue not allowing the boat to change speeds sufficiently to adjust for the larger waves. Especially in this case, but even under all conditions when using a series drogue, the boat is taking the hit right where it's least designed to handle it: into a blunt transom, the flat aft end of the cabin trunk and perhaps even a crew member. A series drogue can work too well, and few boats can withstand this punishment over the course of a lengthy blow. If the intent is to run before big seas with the boat's windage as the only propulsion, then a choice like the Galerider is far safer to the boat & crew, as I see it. I think there are several incidents written up in DDDB IV, as I recall, that illustrate both these points. Jack
Sailing vs. Bare Poles
Based on the current data, the Jordan Series Drogue appears to be the most optimum form of sea anchor currently available. From a sail maker's web site that sells the Jordan Series Drogue: "By Don Jordan, inventor, retired aeronautical engineer The series drogue was developed to perform two separate functions: 1. To prevent the capsize of monohull and multihull sailboats in the event of a large breaking wave strike. 2. To improve the motion of the boat in storm waves and to reduce drift." His invention as meant to be used with "Bare Poles" and when you are not actively sailing. The series drogue can reduce a boat's speed to 1.5 knots, which does not provide adequate steerage speed for most sailboats in a following sea. You could modify the Jordan Series Drogue by shorting the length and reducing the number of cones to greatly reduce the drag, but the series drogue was really not meant to be used while sailing in a following sea. From the Hathaway, Reiser and Raymond web site, the makers of Galerider: "The Galerider's flow concept through its apertures allows the necessary two or three knots for good steerage control. On the face of the wave it provides elastic but high resistance to eliminate surfing and any tendency to pitchpole. In the trough it provides low resistance, permitting continued steering control. At the same time, Galerider allows the helmsman considerable latitude in setting and maintaining a downwind course of his choosing. This could be of extreme importance, depending on the proximity of land which may represent either hazard or refuge." The Galerider can be used while sailing since it will allow minimum steerage speed while sailing in a following sea. Most Offshore sailors have both a Galerider for sailing in a following sea and some kind of sea anchor. From the makers of "Delta Drogue", Para-Tech Engineering. "Speed Limiting Drogue A speed-limiting Drogue is towed off the stern. It's purpose is to (a) limit the boat's speed, (b) reduce her angle of yaw and (c) to provide for steering assist in strong following seas. You can, and may have to, steer the boat with the Drogue in tow. There is a "Catch 22" with any speed limiting Drogue: The same low pull that allows for steering control may also allow the boat to broach, capsize and/or pitchpole in the heaviest seas. The forces that pitchpole yachts are formidable enough to yank the Drogue through the water in the course of throwing the boat end-over-end. Sailors should be aware of this "Catch 22" and make allowances for it in the course of their decisions at sea. WARNING: In all likelihood the insufficient drag of a speed-limiting Drogue will not prevent pitchpole in the heaviest storms, especially those packing ESW's (Extreme Storm Waves), rogues and "Three Sisters" type developments. Four Uses For Drogues 1. The above notwithstanding, speed-limiting Drogues can be of immense value in strong following seas and have been used to stabilize craft since antiquity. No doubt there are many yachts sailing today that would have gone down had it not been for the grace of God and some sort of device that slowed the boat down. 2. Towed off the stern with a bridle a speed-limiting Drogue can be used as an emergency steering device to yaw the boat if steering fails. 3. Towed off the windward quarter a speed-limiting Drogue can help maintain directional stability while negotiating a dangerous harbor entrance. 4. Towed off the stern of a vessel in tow a Drogue can all but eliminate the "whiplash" effect and contribute to better control by the towing vessel. " The Delta Drogue in my opinion should be used in moderate sea conditions and the Galerider in extreme sea conditions when you are sailing in a following sea. If you are going to go "Bare Poles" and are not going to be actively sailing, then use a Jordan Series Drogue. If you are going to be actively sailing in a following sea and need a drag device to help you maintain helm control, use either the "Galerider" or the "Delta Drogue". Which one to use will depend on the sea conditions, what size sailboat you have and how you are going to be sailing in the following seas. As stated by others, these are only one sailor's opinions and my not be what you need. The bottom line is to try out different drag devices and see which ones are effective for your sailboat. Fair Winds. Clyde
Based on the current data, the Jordan Series Drogue appears to be the most optimum form of sea anchor currently available. From a sail maker's web site that sells the Jordan Series Drogue: "By Don Jordan, inventor, retired aeronautical engineer The series drogue was developed to perform two separate functions: 1. To prevent the capsize of monohull and multihull sailboats in the event of a large breaking wave strike. 2. To improve the motion of the boat in storm waves and to reduce drift." His invention as meant to be used with "Bare Poles" and when you are not actively sailing. The series drogue can reduce a boat's speed to 1.5 knots, which does not provide adequate steerage speed for most sailboats in a following sea. You could modify the Jordan Series Drogue by shorting the length and reducing the number of cones to greatly reduce the drag, but the series drogue was really not meant to be used while sailing in a following sea. From the Hathaway, Reiser and Raymond web site, the makers of Galerider: "The Galerider's flow concept through its apertures allows the necessary two or three knots for good steerage control. On the face of the wave it provides elastic but high resistance to eliminate surfing and any tendency to pitchpole. In the trough it provides low resistance, permitting continued steering control. At the same time, Galerider allows the helmsman considerable latitude in setting and maintaining a downwind course of his choosing. This could be of extreme importance, depending on the proximity of land which may represent either hazard or refuge." The Galerider can be used while sailing since it will allow minimum steerage speed while sailing in a following sea. Most Offshore sailors have both a Galerider for sailing in a following sea and some kind of sea anchor. From the makers of "Delta Drogue", Para-Tech Engineering. "Speed Limiting Drogue A speed-limiting Drogue is towed off the stern. It's purpose is to (a) limit the boat's speed, (b) reduce her angle of yaw and (c) to provide for steering assist in strong following seas. You can, and may have to, steer the boat with the Drogue in tow. There is a "Catch 22" with any speed limiting Drogue: The same low pull that allows for steering control may also allow the boat to broach, capsize and/or pitchpole in the heaviest seas. The forces that pitchpole yachts are formidable enough to yank the Drogue through the water in the course of throwing the boat end-over-end. Sailors should be aware of this "Catch 22" and make allowances for it in the course of their decisions at sea. WARNING: In all likelihood the insufficient drag of a speed-limiting Drogue will not prevent pitchpole in the heaviest storms, especially those packing ESW's (Extreme Storm Waves), rogues and "Three Sisters" type developments. Four Uses For Drogues 1. The above notwithstanding, speed-limiting Drogues can be of immense value in strong following seas and have been used to stabilize craft since antiquity. No doubt there are many yachts sailing today that would have gone down had it not been for the grace of God and some sort of device that slowed the boat down. 2. Towed off the stern with a bridle a speed-limiting Drogue can be used as an emergency steering device to yaw the boat if steering fails. 3. Towed off the windward quarter a speed-limiting Drogue can help maintain directional stability while negotiating a dangerous harbor entrance. 4. Towed off the stern of a vessel in tow a Drogue can all but eliminate the "whiplash" effect and contribute to better control by the towing vessel. " The Delta Drogue in my opinion should be used in moderate sea conditions and the Galerider in extreme sea conditions when you are sailing in a following sea. If you are going to go "Bare Poles" and are not going to be actively sailing, then use a Jordan Series Drogue. If you are going to be actively sailing in a following sea and need a drag device to help you maintain helm control, use either the "Galerider" or the "Delta Drogue". Which one to use will depend on the sea conditions, what size sailboat you have and how you are going to be sailing in the following seas. As stated by others, these are only one sailor's opinions and my not be what you need. The bottom line is to try out different drag devices and see which ones are effective for your sailboat. Fair Winds. Clyde
drogues
disclaimer first-I've never been caught out in bad enough weather to need a drogue, but I've been doing a lot of reading. since modern fin keel boats usually don't heave to very well, a controlled downwind run seems to be the preferred tactic. You need to maintain steering, and actively steer the boat, while minimizing surfing down the faces. slowing down too much exposes you to waves catching up and breaking into the cockpit, hitting the crew and possibly breaking in the hatchboards. this is the big concern with aft cockpit, open transom boats and the jordan-perhaps less of a concern with center cockpits. I think the solution is to be prepared with several options, and select based on the conditions
disclaimer first-I've never been caught out in bad enough weather to need a drogue, but I've been doing a lot of reading. since modern fin keel boats usually don't heave to very well, a controlled downwind run seems to be the preferred tactic. You need to maintain steering, and actively steer the boat, while minimizing surfing down the faces. slowing down too much exposes you to waves catching up and breaking into the cockpit, hitting the crew and possibly breaking in the hatchboards. this is the big concern with aft cockpit, open transom boats and the jordan-perhaps less of a concern with center cockpits. I think the solution is to be prepared with several options, and select based on the conditions
Plan, Practice & Do it
If I were to summarize my reading and (limited) experience on heavy weather sailing the keys seem to be: Have a well understood plan, with contingencies for heavy weather. You probably won't be able to try more than one approach if things get really bad. Practice is key. Most of these devices are not easy to deploy or recover. Active sailing is always better - but if a storm lasts more than 24 hours, an exhausted crew will need a strategy to rig the boat, and ride out the storm below. Drag devices should be streamed beyond one wavelength. If the device is in the top of a wave, moving with the wave, it will do little to slow a boat moving down the face of a wave. This means lengths like 500 feet in a serious storm. None of the impartial sources settle on a single solution - we each need a plan for our boat, sailing grounds, possible storms, and crea capabilities. David Lady Lillie
If I were to summarize my reading and (limited) experience on heavy weather sailing the keys seem to be: Have a well understood plan, with contingencies for heavy weather. You probably won't be able to try more than one approach if things get really bad. Practice is key. Most of these devices are not easy to deploy or recover. Active sailing is always better - but if a storm lasts more than 24 hours, an exhausted crew will need a strategy to rig the boat, and ride out the storm below. Drag devices should be streamed beyond one wavelength. If the device is in the top of a wave, moving with the wave, it will do little to slow a boat moving down the face of a wave. This means lengths like 500 feet in a serious storm. None of the impartial sources settle on a single solution - we each need a plan for our boat, sailing grounds, possible storms, and crea capabilities. David Lady Lillie
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