Hey, All! This is my second season sailing my Mac 22. So, I'm still getting to know the boat. My question is about the shrouds. Initially, while still on a trailer befor launch, all the shrouds and stays are nice and tight, mast is straight and firm in position. But every time I'm close hauled or on close reach in winds over 15knots my leeward shrouds go slack so much, so the leeward spreader is just dangling there... Does it mean that I don't have the shrouds tight enough initially? Is it because of stretch in winward shrouds? Does it mean that I have to adjust the shrouds and take up the slack? Does it mean I have bad shrouds?(too thin?) I have 1/8 1x19 stainless(304)? Or do I just have too much sail up ..and better reef??? I know for a fact that on Soling it's expected and they are designed for shroud adjustments on tack...but Soling is a racing boat...unlike Mac. So what do you say? do your shrouds on Mac go slack??? I have updated the boat quiet a bit from it's original condition practically, every single bolt on it was changed over this summer (incluing one of the upper shrouds) So, here it is with my Honey proud and happy :O)
- Status
Get a Loos tension guage
Your rig is not tensioned properly. You can buy a tension guage at West Marine: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/72023/10001/10900/11208/800 It comes with instructions and a suggested starting point for how many lbs of tension you need on which wires. Plus that model stays on the wire as you adjust it, so you know when to stop. Other guages require you to use one hand to hold something or pull on something in order to get a tension reading, and they're just not as useful. You've got a good looking boat there! I like the adjustable backstay and traveler setup you have going on.
Your rig is not tensioned properly. You can buy a tension guage at West Marine: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/72023/10001/10900/11208/800 It comes with instructions and a suggested starting point for how many lbs of tension you need on which wires. Plus that model stays on the wire as you adjust it, so you know when to stop. Other guages require you to use one hand to hold something or pull on something in order to get a tension reading, and they're just not as useful. You've got a good looking boat there! I like the adjustable backstay and traveler setup you have going on.
Spreader angle.
I was looking at you picture and thinking about your problem. It is difficult to tell for sure from the picture but it looks like your spreaders are at the wrong angle. Picture two angles. One is the angle formed by the spreader and the stay above the spreader going to the top of the mast; and the other is the angle formed by the spreader and the stay below the spreader going down to the deck. In the original literature for my 1970 V-21 it says that these two angles should be equal. When they are equal the spread tip is elevated above the horizontal. This physically this distributes the load and the tension in the stay. In the your picture it appears that the spreaders are horizontal. This inequality could possible cause the problem you are having.
I was looking at you picture and thinking about your problem. It is difficult to tell for sure from the picture but it looks like your spreaders are at the wrong angle. Picture two angles. One is the angle formed by the spreader and the stay above the spreader going to the top of the mast; and the other is the angle formed by the spreader and the stay below the spreader going down to the deck. In the original literature for my 1970 V-21 it says that these two angles should be equal. When they are equal the spread tip is elevated above the horizontal. This physically this distributes the load and the tension in the stay. In the your picture it appears that the spreaders are horizontal. This inequality could possible cause the problem you are having.
sloppy
Two things I noticed. 1 spreaders height as the other fellow mentioned. 2 back stay adjuster. These boats are a fractional rig and the tension on the forestay comes from the upper shrouds. Since you said you were pointing I am assuming that you had your backstay tight. This would take tension off the upper shrouds, and may be part of the reason your lee upper shrouds are going loose. You didn't say if they were loose after your days sailing at the dock. If they were still tight then and only go loose when pointing and cranking down on the back stay, then I'd guess that's just how they are going to work for you. Watch out when tacking as this will also allow for a dynamic shock to the shrouds as you come through the wind. I have the 23 and my shrouds are 5/32", but 1/8" seems right for your boat.
Two things I noticed. 1 spreaders height as the other fellow mentioned. 2 back stay adjuster. These boats are a fractional rig and the tension on the forestay comes from the upper shrouds. Since you said you were pointing I am assuming that you had your backstay tight. This would take tension off the upper shrouds, and may be part of the reason your lee upper shrouds are going loose. You didn't say if they were loose after your days sailing at the dock. If they were still tight then and only go loose when pointing and cranking down on the back stay, then I'd guess that's just how they are going to work for you. Watch out when tacking as this will also allow for a dynamic shock to the shrouds as you come through the wind. I have the 23 and my shrouds are 5/32", but 1/8" seems right for your boat.
it's masthead rig, not fractional
Hey, All. Great replies so far, I'll look into all of them tomorrow on the water and will try to snap some pix. Greg, my boat is not fractional, it's a masthead rig, but the upper shrouds do too contribute to the forstay tension. The thing is that the lower shrouds on lee go loose too (so does a the baby stay, that I have connected at the same point as lower shrouds. Will not have a chance to get a tension gauge before tomorrow morning, though. But' will try to tighten the shrouds a bit more. "THEY" say, the shrouds shouldn't have any tone in them when plucked like a bass guitar string :O) We'll see. I'll report on it tomorrow, Al
Hey, All. Great replies so far, I'll look into all of them tomorrow on the water and will try to snap some pix. Greg, my boat is not fractional, it's a masthead rig, but the upper shrouds do too contribute to the forstay tension. The thing is that the lower shrouds on lee go loose too (so does a the baby stay, that I have connected at the same point as lower shrouds. Will not have a chance to get a tension gauge before tomorrow morning, though. But' will try to tighten the shrouds a bit more. "THEY" say, the shrouds shouldn't have any tone in them when plucked like a bass guitar string :O) We'll see. I'll report on it tomorrow, Al
backstay
Sorry, haven't seen a masthead rigged mac. Still from what I could see in the picture, your upper shrouds still come aft like the fractional rigs. Applying tension to the backstay will take tension off of the shrouds. The windward shroud won't go slack, it's holding the force of the mast trying to go to leeward, but the leeward shrouds will go slack then. And as tension is applied to the backstay, the uppers should go more slack than the lowers, unless the mast is bowing to leeward in the center. Which may happen with too much compression. You would have to have a forestay going to the top of the mast (mast head rig) to do this. Your right, Mac says not to over tighten their shrouds. They shouldn't make a note when strummed, but shouldn't sound limp when struck. One trick used when dynamic tunning is to tighten a loose shroud about half of what would be needed to make it taunt, then come about and tighten its partner the same. Not a lot of fun to do if there is much wind and you are using the original fittings. Not too hard if you have turnbuckels. If 3 twists get rid of the slack, back off 1 and 1/2 then come about and tighten the other 1 and 1/2 too. You didn't say if you had the back stay tight when this problem occured, but I would do all the tunning with minimum tension on the back stay, and then enjoy all the benifits the adjustable back stay gives you when all else is at its optimum.
Sorry, haven't seen a masthead rigged mac. Still from what I could see in the picture, your upper shrouds still come aft like the fractional rigs. Applying tension to the backstay will take tension off of the shrouds. The windward shroud won't go slack, it's holding the force of the mast trying to go to leeward, but the leeward shrouds will go slack then. And as tension is applied to the backstay, the uppers should go more slack than the lowers, unless the mast is bowing to leeward in the center. Which may happen with too much compression. You would have to have a forestay going to the top of the mast (mast head rig) to do this. Your right, Mac says not to over tighten their shrouds. They shouldn't make a note when strummed, but shouldn't sound limp when struck. One trick used when dynamic tunning is to tighten a loose shroud about half of what would be needed to make it taunt, then come about and tighten its partner the same. Not a lot of fun to do if there is much wind and you are using the original fittings. Not too hard if you have turnbuckels. If 3 twists get rid of the slack, back off 1 and 1/2 then come about and tighten the other 1 and 1/2 too. You didn't say if you had the back stay tight when this problem occured, but I would do all the tunning with minimum tension on the back stay, and then enjoy all the benifits the adjustable back stay gives you when all else is at its optimum.
swept spreaders
Greg, your comments regarding the aft-swept spreaders are confusing me. I have never seen a Mac that had spreaders that aren't swept, whether the boat had a masthead or fractional rig. Swept spreaders has nothing to do with fractional vs masthead rig. It has to do with how large the main is compared to the jib. Boats with proportionally large mains typically have swept spreaders to help distribute the load of the large main when going downwind. Mac 19's, 21's, and 22's all have masthead rigs. I've also seen a few 25's that have been converted to masthead rigs.
Greg, your comments regarding the aft-swept spreaders are confusing me. I have never seen a Mac that had spreaders that aren't swept, whether the boat had a masthead or fractional rig. Swept spreaders has nothing to do with fractional vs masthead rig. It has to do with how large the main is compared to the jib. Boats with proportionally large mains typically have swept spreaders to help distribute the load of the large main when going downwind. Mac 19's, 21's, and 22's all have masthead rigs. I've also seen a few 25's that have been converted to masthead rigs.
My .02...
Well, my opinion is that at 15 kts. you are going to see some slack in the leeward shrouds on light boats with light masts like a Mac. You've got a lot of effort on the sails pulling the mast to lee. In order to make mast raising easy, the masts are a thinner wall than fixed keel boats and therefore will give a little more. As well the mast step configuration will allow for some give too. MacGregor calls for the upper shroud to mount to the aft hole on the chainplates and it looks like that is how yours is rigged, so I wouldn't see that as being a problem.
Well, my opinion is that at 15 kts. you are going to see some slack in the leeward shrouds on light boats with light masts like a Mac. You've got a lot of effort on the sails pulling the mast to lee. In order to make mast raising easy, the masts are a thinner wall than fixed keel boats and therefore will give a little more. As well the mast step configuration will allow for some give too. MacGregor calls for the upper shroud to mount to the aft hole on the chainplates and it looks like that is how yours is rigged, so I wouldn't see that as being a problem.
just a little bit
Abby, you're right, you do need a teeny bit of slack in the leeward shrouds, but not just in high winds. And it has nothing to do with the mast being "bendy". North Sails offers the following rig tuning advice for the J/22, but it applies at least to the 21, 22, and 25, as the rigs are very similar to the J/22: "When sailing upwind under proper sail trim watch the leeward upper shroud and if it has a great deal of “wiggle” (more than 1/2" back and forth) tighten both sides equally until the leeward upper is again, just starting to go slack. If the breeze lightens, or you start out too tight (no wiggle at all) back off both uppers equally until the slight wiggle just begins to appear." The full article is very interesting, and offers ways to double check your rig tension visually. They seem to be saying that you don't need a tension guage at all, but I disagree. Guages are useful for making sure you're in the ballpark for proper tension at the dock, as well as checking that the shrouds on each side of the mast are tensioned equally, and that the ratios of upper tension to lower tension are the same on each side. Anyway, check out the article here: http://www.northsailsod.com/class/j22/j22_tuning.html. Start reading section III: Visual Shroud Tension Setting
Abby, you're right, you do need a teeny bit of slack in the leeward shrouds, but not just in high winds. And it has nothing to do with the mast being "bendy". North Sails offers the following rig tuning advice for the J/22, but it applies at least to the 21, 22, and 25, as the rigs are very similar to the J/22: "When sailing upwind under proper sail trim watch the leeward upper shroud and if it has a great deal of “wiggle” (more than 1/2" back and forth) tighten both sides equally until the leeward upper is again, just starting to go slack. If the breeze lightens, or you start out too tight (no wiggle at all) back off both uppers equally until the slight wiggle just begins to appear." The full article is very interesting, and offers ways to double check your rig tension visually. They seem to be saying that you don't need a tension guage at all, but I disagree. Guages are useful for making sure you're in the ballpark for proper tension at the dock, as well as checking that the shrouds on each side of the mast are tensioned equally, and that the ratios of upper tension to lower tension are the same on each side. Anyway, check out the article here: http://www.northsailsod.com/class/j22/j22_tuning.html. Start reading section III: Visual Shroud Tension Setting
dead link
I would like to know how to properly tension the rig on my 25. The last time I rigged the boat I got the forstay too tight and induced a bend in the mast.(fractional rig) I guess I should loosen the back stay. It seems it is just guess work on these boats. I've never seen good instructions on rig tuning for a M25.
I would like to know how to properly tension the rig on my 25. The last time I rigged the boat I got the forstay too tight and induced a bend in the mast.(fractional rig) I guess I should loosen the back stay. It seems it is just guess work on these boats. I've never seen good instructions on rig tuning for a M25.
turnbuckles vs pin hole things
I'm not sure what the proper terminology is, but the boats come stock with those pin hole things that you can tighten by pulling down on the wire and putting the pin in a different hole. The problem with this design is that it's very difficult to get enough tension, as it's hard to be pulling down on the wire without bending it whatsoever, while also holding the pin things aligned as someone else puts the pin through the holes. Actual turnbuckles that you twist to tighten / loosen are much better, not only because they give you more fine control over tension, but also it's much easier to adjust, and the wires stay fully attached while you're making adjustments. Before I had turnbuckles, it was always scary taking out the pin for the forestay to tighten it, because if the wind decided to blow hard right then it'd rip the wire out of my hand and down the mast would go. (this was while I was at the dock, not sailing). Also, if you're going to replace that one shroud anyway, might as well do your whole rig. If you're really concerned about the wire itself stretching, you could step up to 5/32" diameter, but 1/8" should be fine as well. You shouldn't need a hinge on your mast. It's already got that one bolt to hold it, and if it's the step itself that wiggles, a hinge wouldn't help you. But if your mast step _does_ wiggle side to side, you probably shouldn't be sailing your boat, because that deck is about to fail. It all comes back to the rigging. You just have to iron out the issues it has so you can get it tight enough that it doesn't move.
I'm not sure what the proper terminology is, but the boats come stock with those pin hole things that you can tighten by pulling down on the wire and putting the pin in a different hole. The problem with this design is that it's very difficult to get enough tension, as it's hard to be pulling down on the wire without bending it whatsoever, while also holding the pin things aligned as someone else puts the pin through the holes. Actual turnbuckles that you twist to tighten / loosen are much better, not only because they give you more fine control over tension, but also it's much easier to adjust, and the wires stay fully attached while you're making adjustments. Before I had turnbuckles, it was always scary taking out the pin for the forestay to tighten it, because if the wind decided to blow hard right then it'd rip the wire out of my hand and down the mast would go. (this was while I was at the dock, not sailing). Also, if you're going to replace that one shroud anyway, might as well do your whole rig. If you're really concerned about the wire itself stretching, you could step up to 5/32" diameter, but 1/8" should be fine as well. You shouldn't need a hinge on your mast. It's already got that one bolt to hold it, and if it's the step itself that wiggles, a hinge wouldn't help you. But if your mast step _does_ wiggle side to side, you probably shouldn't be sailing your boat, because that deck is about to fail. It all comes back to the rigging. You just have to iron out the issues it has so you can get it tight enough that it doesn't move.
- Status