What am I looking at here (surveying a C30)?

[Qorgyle]

I had more questions but limited time and went away without asking them. I'm going to go back but I figured I could ask a few things in the meantime from the hive mind here.

Is this butyl slapped on as a temporary sealer? The boat appears quite dry on the inside (no rusty bolts or stains that I saw at ALL), but this seems messy. I could re-bed it myself at a later date, but is this necessarily "bad" if you intend to fix it moving onwards (owner says new hardware is on hand, just lack of time prevents install which, you know, I sympathize).

Second, I was just looking through some more of my pictures and ... are these bolts upside down? Not sure if this is normal or just sloppy, I don't see any bedding squeezout there either. Again, something I could definitely re-bed myself later, but just wondering if this is a Catalina peculiarity. You can see ones further down the deck are the more expected orientation.

Thanks. I'm reading (and re-reading) "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" but some of these things are still a little bit of a mystery - although each boat visit clears up more and more things.

 

[dlochner]

Walk away.

The first picture is a really poor attempt to stop a chain plate leak. Leaks can not be stopped by applying lots of caulk on the outside of the fitting. The caulk, butyl or any other caulk needs to go between the fitting and the hull/deck/cabinside that it is attached to. If the job is this poorly done, no telling what else has been poorly completed.

The second photo is of a stud for a canvass fitting, perhaps a "lift a dot fitting." These are typically not bedded or a little bit of caulk is applied before the stud is screwed into the deck. Hard to tell from this photo, however, these are commonly used with dodgers or other canvass.

 

[Qorgyle]

commonly used with dodgers

Ah, that makes sense, there are other dodger fittings around that area.

lots of caulk on the outside of the fitting

Ah, bummer. At least good to know my initial "what the heck is this nonsense" feeling was right, so thanks for that.

Owner has only had it a year, so hopefully it was just his temporary patch job until he got the hardware (already has it) installed. I'll ask and see - it does seem quite nice otherwise.

On the other hand ... why is he letting it go then after only a year (just to get a C32, a small increase in size), right?

 

[jssailem]

Hey there OR sailor. Welcome to the SBO forum.

Pretty much just conjecture: impossible to know what motivates a person to buy a boat then sell it a year later. When you quickly buy a boat, discover it is not up to the dream you envision, and requires more work than what you want to give, a quick sale having parts in a box you were going to install to clean up the problems you discovered but have not resolved, happens more often than you would expect.

The sloppy attempt to plug a leak around what looks like rusty chain plates is what triggers the above conjecture. As instructed by @dlochner you will need to correct that area. It would not surprise me that you will find stains on the interior of the cabin. Likely the deck core has become wet. You would want to define the size and cost of the repair. Let that influence the price you are willing to pay.

If you buy the boat do the chain plate repair before you put stress on the mast rigging. (Go sailing in 30 knots of Columbia gorge wind)
You might want a rigger to give you an opinion on the strength of the structure if this boat is a lot of boat bucks for your budget.

 

[dLj]

From the looks of the pictures you have shown, and the statement that the inside looks great - I would hesitate to buy this boat. It sounds to me like the current owner went through the interior and cleaned well so you don't see where any/all the problems lie. I would be concerned that there are many more problems than what you are seeing. Those chain plates look in very poor condition and you should definitely see something on the inside. That throws a lot of red flags in my mind.

dj

 

[dmax]

And to add to what everyone has said, when you start tearing it apart, it is almost always worse than what it looks like on the outside.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Walk away.

Really? Based on some goop around the chainplate cover? You wouldn't consider the asking price before saying that? You wouldn't look at the entire boat and perhaps do some moisture testing?

I'll admit, what little is shown in the photographs isn't encouraging, but you seem to be like a blind person grasping the elephants tail and saying the elephant is very much like a vine!

It is fairly obvious that the sealant has been there for years and if the seller has only had it for a year, then I doubt he is responsible for that sloppy application of sealant. There may have been a drip there 5 or 6 years ago and it may have been stopped with that gob of sealant. The sloppiness doesn't necessarily mean it isn't doing it's job. Readings from a moisture meter and tapping on the hull and deck with a soft hammer may provide a lot more information about the condition of the core.

The "bolt" is a canvas fitting as Dave says.

I would agree that the condition of the toggle and the chainplate itself looks suspect, but this is just one tiny example that may not represent the boat overall. Perhaps it is priced in a range where it is logical to replace all of the rigging? We don't have this information. Perhaps the deck and the core is just very dirty but otherwise in perfect structural condition. We don't know that, either.

I don't think it is unusual for somebody to purchase a 30' boat in dirty condition and quickly realize they want a 32' boat in clean condition. Perhaps that is why it doesn't look so great. If I was selling it, I would certainly clean it up to seek a higher price, but we don't know this sellers circumstance and we don't know if it is priced appropriately for it's condition or not.

 

[jssailem]

As @Scott T-Bird wisely states it, not much detail is known.

A decision may be premature. As many of the sailors here have shared, if getting out on the water is your dream, buy a boat that is ready to sail, rather than a project.

Projects have a habit of seeing you at the marina or on land spending the time, you could be sailing, working on the boat. All boats have maintenance. All boats will occupy some of your time working on them. It is a way boats have of bonding with you. If you like projects, by all means buy a project boat. Working on "Your boat " in itself can be rewarding.

Just don't spend all your time working while the dream of sailing and adventures withers.

 

[markwbird]

That is a poor attempt at fixing a leak. That said, it does not mean that the deck necessary has water damage. Is the deck soft anywhere? What is the asking price? Unless you are buying a newish boat you are going to have to deal with this kind of thing to some extent. I do recommend pulling the boat out of the water and getting a look at the keel. Also, if you end up buying the boat you should do a proper repair on that chain plate.

 

[Qorgyle]

When you quickly buy a boat, discover it is not up to the dream you envision, and requires more work than what you want to give, a quick sale having parts in a box you were going to install to clean up the problems you discovered but have not resolved, happens more often than you would expect.

Owner did in fact say pretty much this. Suddenly realized the projects vs. time ratio wasn't working out for them - I guess that's an indicator for me as well.

It would not surprise me that you will find stains on the interior of the cabin. Likely the deck core has become wet

I haven't, oddly - I went over it quite a bit. I'm still new to inspecting though, but I did realize those looked sketch. The chainplates had some very light yellowish stain on them - maybe an incomplete rust cleanup? :/ Unfortunately I'm not sure what a sound vs. wet deck sounds like when tapped, but that's probably experience I'll pick up as I keep doing this. At some point I'll need to commit to a survey so that I can learn what I'm looking for - maybe on this one.

It sounds to me like the current owner went through the interior and cleaned well so you don't see where any/all the problems lie

It *is* very nice. This seems more and more plausible.

Perhaps it is priced in a range where it is logical to replace all of the rigging?

16.9k. I'm ready to do immediate or near immediate haulout for bottom paint and to replace the running and maybe even the standing rigging at that price, but that'd be about the extent of it. I'd re-bed the rest of the deck hardware myself over time, that seems straightforward enough. If the deck's thoroughly wet that seems like a much bigger problem - and then there's whatever the survey finds that will probably be a bigger unexpected yikes.

It is fairly obvious that the sealant has been there for years

Tthis is good intel - I had no idea how this stuff ages, so thought maybe he was responsible for an "in the meantime" sloppy fix. That he hasn't addressed it while he had it is another good data point. To add to that, the running rigging is pretty poor all around and he mentioned he had a tarp over it in the winter so maybe this just means it leaks a lot so he hasn't sailed it much at all!

Oh yeah, this stuff was slapped on some of the ports as well, from the outside. :/

Is the deck soft anywhere

I walked all around it and poked at it and I would say no, but as I said, still new to this. I'm just not sure what I'm looking for there. I'm not quite ready to start pulling off deck hardware and poking the core with awls, as the "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" book says.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Sounds like I should be far more cautious and investigate a lot more before even deciding to spend the money on a survey, much less making a purchase decision.

 

[Terry Cox]

Is this butyl slapped on as a temporary sealer?

In addition to the comments already made, if water seeped down into and around where the shroud stay attaches to the hull, likely requires a better and professional look-see. It appears the PO experienced some water leaking by the deck bracket and tried a cheap and dirty way to stop it. Our stays attach to a SS deck-mounted and bedded bracket similar to yours and they do not leak.. That bracket connects to a rod that extends down to the hull where it connects to another bracket (chain plate) that is bedded into the hull during layup. All that needs to be inspected by a marine surveyor for corrosion damage. The condition of that hull bracket must withstand sufficient load as to prevent a rig failure. As with our boat, it may require removing some cabinetry in order to make a visual inspection of all the hidden components that make up the below deck stay assembly.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

You can buy a soft hammer at Home Depot Estwing 12 oz. Double-Face Soft Hammer DFH12 - The Home Depot and use this to tap on the hull and the deck. It won't cause any damage and you don't have to whack very hard. You will hear a thud if the hull or deck is soft and delaminated. You will hear a more solid ring if the material is solid. What year is this boat? I think Catalina has a very good reputation for protecting against water intrusion into the deck. My experience in looking at several 20-year old Catalinas has been very little to no concern over soft decks.

A moisture meter is basically useless in the wrong hands. A surveyor with good experience with a moisture meter will give you good information, but watch out ... in the wrong hands, you may find a surveyor telling you there is moisture when there is not. False readings are common, especially around metal fittings. It is also not a do-it-yourself tool unless you have experience.

Whether or not you or the seller is going to pay for new standing rigging is a very tricky proposition. A little rust staining on the rigging does not necessarily indicate imminent failure. I would look out for "fish hooks". Those are breaks in the tiny individual wires of a strand. They tend to curl out, thus the term "fish hook". You might find them with a microfiber rag at the deck level. They are almost always found at fittings where a hard bend may cause damage.

If the seller represents that the rigging is sound and you find damage, then I would expect a price reduction or no deal. Where it gets tricky is where you don't find any evidence of damage but the rigging is 20-years old or older. When I bought my boat, the rigging was 20-years old and showed no sign of damage. The seller, no doubt, wasn't adjusting his price for rigging replacement. Why should he? His mind tells him the rigging is fine even though every sailor knows that 20-year old rigging is recommended to be replaced by the "experts". I knew that I was going to replace the rigging simply because it was 20-years old and the boat is new to me. I didn't ask for a price reduction because I figured that would kill the deal. So I payed full price and the first off-season I replaced all the standing rigging. You can play that differently, but you can see that this will always be a negotiation. There will be other similar issues but the key is to identify defects that the seller represents are fine if you need to discount the price, I think.

 

[BarryL]

Hey,

Some more or less random comments.
WE (the internet) have NO idea what is going with the boat your are considering. We can guess, make some very educated guess, but we can't see it, touch it, sound it, poke it, etc.
I can tell your with CERTAINTLY that NO boat you buy is going to be perfect. EVERY boat you look at will have one issue or another. You just can't buy a perfect (or even close to it) boat for small money. That doesn't mean you can't find a nice boat in good condition and happily sail for years and years. But you can inspect 100's of boats for under $20K and reject them all because of one problem or another, Be realistic - as long as the engine and transmission are solid, the hull solid and the rig is decent, then the rest is really up to you.

IMHO people make way too big a deal over 'wet decks.' Yes, some decks are so wet they need to be replaced ASAP because they are dangerous and will fail. But I know people who have a wet spot, soft spot, whatever, and sail the boat for years and years and nothing goes wrong. Yes you should try to prevent the water from getting into the deck, properly bed fittings, keep on top of chainplates and that sfuff, but a wet anchor locker lid, lazarette cover is not a deal breaker.

Sailing boats is fun, great fun. Looking and a few boats is fun. Traveling hours to see poorly maintained, crappy boats, filled with dirty bilges and lockers, is no fun at all.

good luck,
barry

 

[Qorgyle]

as long as the engine and transmission are solid, the hull solid and the rig is decent, then the rest is really up to you.

Yeah, that's where we're at. Unfortunately, the softness and wetness of the deck, as well as the state of the engine, are things that I have no expertise on so I think it's survey time. It'll be a learning experience as well so I can do the majority of these things by myself the next time (if this ends up a bust).

Mind you, now 2 separate people told me that surveying anything under 40k is a waste of time. I have yet to understand why that is the case, but I assume it comes from having a lot of spare cash lying around to address the 10k worth of fixes that will inevitably come up if you don't survey it.

Traveling hours to see poorly maintained, crappy boats, filled with dirty bilges and lockers, is no fun at all.

Yeah. I've done a good bit of that, and this boat is not that. It just needs some (bit overdue) work, which I *think* I'm capable of. As long as - as you said - the engine and the hull are good.

I'll keep y'all posted. Arranging another visit tomorrow to poke more into, well, anything I can poke at.

 

[Siamese]

My opinion on getting a competent survey is that it's necessary even if it's a free 30 footer. The value of the boat is a factor, but also of importance is how much the boat could cost you if it has problems you didn't anticipate. Better to know what's going on beforehand.

I'm not liking this boat. It has no signs of being cared for. The teak parts are neglected wrecks. That pile of pudding on the deck is bad even for a quick repair, and I agree that it's been that way for years. The frame around the window appears to be packed with the crud of the ages, and it looks like you could grow potatoes in that non-skid. If you're going to sell a boat, even a crummy one, why not take a day to make it presentable? I can guarantee you this vessel is currently owned by a slacker, and he's not the first.

On a more personal note, and this is not intended to be offensive (uh, oh). If you don't recognize a lift the dot fitting and you can't tell whether that goop on the fitting is marine sealant or butyl tape, now is probably not the time for you to purchase and restore a boat. This particular boat likely needs inspection of the chain plates at the very least, and highly likely that it needs all new standing rigging. I'd bet that the running rigging is shabby too, based on the level of care this boat appears to have received.

Based on the info you've been able to provide, I wouldn't bet on this boat being worth your money and effort. But, I won't disregard the comments of those who said just because there's a big gob of sealant on deck doesn't mean you have to walk away. Ya never know, but I'm not optimistic.

 

[Stu Jackson]

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This comes from this sbo thread by weekendrken:



1992 Catalina 30



Also: www.catalina30.com

Mind you, now 2 separate people told me that surveying anything under 40k is a waste of time.

Those 2 folks are seriously uninformed. Why? Because it IS a big investment. If you were buying a used car, would you not take it to a mechanic before you bought it? Also, you personally have expressed little boating knowledge, so you don't know what to look for. The survey $$ itself could save you oodles of dough.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Here's another fine link:

Boat Inspection Trip Tips

I posted this to another forum, and a friend of mine, Maine Sail, asked me to post it to this forum as well, so here it is. Please note: This thread is about going to visit a boat to see if it is worth looking at further. It is not designed to replace a proper survey and sea trial. This...

forums.sailboatowners.com

 

[Kingjim91]

Also, you personally have expressed little boating knowledge, so you don't know what to look for. The survey $$ itself could save you oodles of dough.
[/QUOTE]

For me, even if the surveyor doesn’t find any problems, the peace of mind is very valuable.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

.

Mind you, now 2 separate people told me that surveying anything under 40k is a waste of time. I have yet to understand why that is the case, …

everybody has opinions, others make informed judgments. You get to choose. It’s easy to waste $40k on a boat.

 

[FastOlson]

Some buyers believe that a survey is a reason to knock down a price. Sometimes yes and sometimes no.
Some believe that a survey will inform them if the boat is the 'right' boat for them. Seldom.
Some understand that the survey will provide a maintenance 'road map' for their initial years of ownership and stewardship. Yes, it should do that.
And ultimately most figure out that a survey is required to get insurance... and insurance is required to rent a slip. Pragmatic reason, and usually true.

And, reply #19, nails it pretty well too!
And.... replies 16 and 17.... !