I've been looking at a boat that has a cutter rig. The literature I've read says they're great for storms because it's easier to put up a balanced sail plan. However, I have no plans on being in a situation where I'm likely to encounter a storm. I'm a weekend bay sailor with just a little bit of coastal cruising tossed in. Seems to me that they would be hard to tack since it means getting a big old genoa jib in the little slot between the two forestays. And I don't have a clue on how anybody could jibe and get the jib through the slot. I would think they are primarily meant for long downwind cruises rather than tacking upwind. However, not having sailed one before, this is all guesswork on my part. For those of you have any opinions, I'd sure like to hear about the pros and cons of this type of rig.
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Proper Cutters
True Cutters have bowsprits. True Cutters do not have (or need) Genoas. On a true Cutter, the forestays'l sets from the stem of the boat on the Forestay (hence the name). The sail does not overlap the main and can be self tacking. The jib is set flying (no stay) from the bowsprit and may overlap the forestays'l but certainly not the main. Jibs have high clews and tack quite nicely ahead of the forestays'l. In heavy weather, the jib is not flown and the bowsprit is stowed on deck. The reefed main and forestays'l keep the boat nicely balanced. The solution to the modern twin forestay sloop you describe is to combine a full sized (even to the point of overlapping) inner stay sail and a high clewed Yankee on the forward stay. If the boat needs a Genoa sized sail on the forward stay, it was designed poorly.
True Cutters have bowsprits. True Cutters do not have (or need) Genoas. On a true Cutter, the forestays'l sets from the stem of the boat on the Forestay (hence the name). The sail does not overlap the main and can be self tacking. The jib is set flying (no stay) from the bowsprit and may overlap the forestays'l but certainly not the main. Jibs have high clews and tack quite nicely ahead of the forestays'l. In heavy weather, the jib is not flown and the bowsprit is stowed on deck. The reefed main and forestays'l keep the boat nicely balanced. The solution to the modern twin forestay sloop you describe is to combine a full sized (even to the point of overlapping) inner stay sail and a high clewed Yankee on the forward stay. If the boat needs a Genoa sized sail on the forward stay, it was designed poorly.
Cutters
Seems like you have a few correct ideas about the advantages and disadvantages of cutter rigs. It helps to have a better crew when you sail one because there are a few more things to do like moving the jib across. Most have running backstays that need adjustment to offset the fore of the inner forestay. More hardware, more money and more work for your crew. It's usually not a bad job unless you have a big genoa. You have many more sail plan options when the wind picks up and you need to reduce sail area. It's my observation that most cutters are heavier than sloops the same size. They're generally not as fast down wind (unless you do the spinnaker thing) Going off shore or sailing in heavy air I personally would rather be on a cutter especially going up wind. They seem to have a nice traditional look. I think one of the most under rated cutters out there is the Hunter 37C. You'ld spend twice the price to boat made by someone else with the same features. Find a cutter in your area and ask for a ride or an afternoon crew position
Seems like you have a few correct ideas about the advantages and disadvantages of cutter rigs. It helps to have a better crew when you sail one because there are a few more things to do like moving the jib across. Most have running backstays that need adjustment to offset the fore of the inner forestay. More hardware, more money and more work for your crew. It's usually not a bad job unless you have a big genoa. You have many more sail plan options when the wind picks up and you need to reduce sail area. It's my observation that most cutters are heavier than sloops the same size. They're generally not as fast down wind (unless you do the spinnaker thing) Going off shore or sailing in heavy air I personally would rather be on a cutter especially going up wind. They seem to have a nice traditional look. I think one of the most under rated cutters out there is the Hunter 37C. You'ld spend twice the price to boat made by someone else with the same features. Find a cutter in your area and ask for a ride or an afternoon crew position
More pieces and more money
Sailed a sloop around the islands in Pacific northwest. Hunter 34. Sailed a Cutter offshore from Alaska across the gulf then later to Hawaii. Valiant 40. Having said all that, I just bought a Catalina 30 sloop. It seems like it is a lot more parts and money for an extra sail to deal with. (Cutter that is) Unless you are planning on open ocean, why not look at a sloop. Just as fast and there are plenty around. Whatever your choice you will know it is the right boat when you sail her. Good luck on which ever way you decide and fair winds Ken
Sailed a sloop around the islands in Pacific northwest. Hunter 34. Sailed a Cutter offshore from Alaska across the gulf then later to Hawaii. Valiant 40. Having said all that, I just bought a Catalina 30 sloop. It seems like it is a lot more parts and money for an extra sail to deal with. (Cutter that is) Unless you are planning on open ocean, why not look at a sloop. Just as fast and there are plenty around. Whatever your choice you will know it is the right boat when you sail her. Good luck on which ever way you decide and fair winds Ken
got one
the major problem is if you are running only the front sail (Jib, genoa) and main. When you tack, someone has to actually move the sail between the staysail stay. Other wise with all three sails up it's no problem. My boat is 20,000lbs.
the major problem is if you are running only the front sail (Jib, genoa) and main. When you tack, someone has to actually move the sail between the staysail stay. Other wise with all three sails up it's no problem. My boat is 20,000lbs.
Tricing line ......
Tacking or gybing a cutter with a large genoa is fairly easy with a 'tricing line': Run a small line from the cockpit to a block on the stem/bowsprit then back to the clew on the genoa - when tacking/gybing pull the tricing line to 'bunch' the sail as you turn - the clew will go forward and the 'bunch' will easily go through between the forestay and the jibstay. If this works, then consider to add cringles/rings for the tricing line on the sail higher up so that more the middle of the sail is 'bunched'. (The 1987 Americas Cup boats used tricing lines and if you ever have access to a video of the 87AC series you can see precisely how to use a tricing line). The usage of a boomed staysail (self tacking) and with the staysail flying will allow a large genoa to 'slide across' the staysail instead of being caught on the bare forestay. Be sure to use a single sheet with the 'middle' of the sheet attached to the genoa clew with a clove hitch .... NO large knots !!!!!!!! Tacking/gybing a cutter in light winds is a royal PITA. For those conditions consider to add a releaseable tack connection to the forestay and simply store the stay on the mast, etc. and sail the boat like a sloop. In light winds the staysail is virtually useless unless you get good air flow... without good airflow, drop the staysail and disconnect and store the stay. To properly shape and trim a staysail go to http://www.arvelgentry.com/magaz.htm then select "double headed rig". This is probably the ****ONLY article ever written**** that correctly explains stays'l trim and shape and interaction with the main/jib - especially when on a beat. If you try to make a staysail 'draw' when flown under a large genoa while beating you will be kidding yourself and the boat will simply not point !!!!! If you carefully understand and use this article as a reference, your pointing ability and speed will increase significantly .... its all aerodynamics; and, aerodynamics is ***NOT*** something one can base on INTUITION. The other articles on this website are THE seminal articles of how sails actually work and their correct interactions .... especially look at the articles: Checking Trim on the Wind, November 1973 Achieving Proper Balance, December 1973 Sailing to Windward, January 1974 Are You at Optimum Trim?, March 1974 ... as these are "THE definitive original work" on how to use ***TELL TALES*** to shape and trim sails. These articles are 'technical'. If you have difficulty in following these articles .... then get a copy of Don Guilettes "sail trim users guide'.... then read the article on double headed rigs, etc. Correct nomenclature for stays on a cutter: Genoa/yankee - jibstay; stays'l - forestay (originally called the forestaysail). hope this helps.
Tacking or gybing a cutter with a large genoa is fairly easy with a 'tricing line': Run a small line from the cockpit to a block on the stem/bowsprit then back to the clew on the genoa - when tacking/gybing pull the tricing line to 'bunch' the sail as you turn - the clew will go forward and the 'bunch' will easily go through between the forestay and the jibstay. If this works, then consider to add cringles/rings for the tricing line on the sail higher up so that more the middle of the sail is 'bunched'. (The 1987 Americas Cup boats used tricing lines and if you ever have access to a video of the 87AC series you can see precisely how to use a tricing line). The usage of a boomed staysail (self tacking) and with the staysail flying will allow a large genoa to 'slide across' the staysail instead of being caught on the bare forestay. Be sure to use a single sheet with the 'middle' of the sheet attached to the genoa clew with a clove hitch .... NO large knots !!!!!!!! Tacking/gybing a cutter in light winds is a royal PITA. For those conditions consider to add a releaseable tack connection to the forestay and simply store the stay on the mast, etc. and sail the boat like a sloop. In light winds the staysail is virtually useless unless you get good air flow... without good airflow, drop the staysail and disconnect and store the stay. To properly shape and trim a staysail go to http://www.arvelgentry.com/magaz.htm then select "double headed rig". This is probably the ****ONLY article ever written**** that correctly explains stays'l trim and shape and interaction with the main/jib - especially when on a beat. If you try to make a staysail 'draw' when flown under a large genoa while beating you will be kidding yourself and the boat will simply not point !!!!! If you carefully understand and use this article as a reference, your pointing ability and speed will increase significantly .... its all aerodynamics; and, aerodynamics is ***NOT*** something one can base on INTUITION. The other articles on this website are THE seminal articles of how sails actually work and their correct interactions .... especially look at the articles: Checking Trim on the Wind, November 1973 Achieving Proper Balance, December 1973 Sailing to Windward, January 1974 Are You at Optimum Trim?, March 1974 ... as these are "THE definitive original work" on how to use ***TELL TALES*** to shape and trim sails. These articles are 'technical'. If you have difficulty in following these articles .... then get a copy of Don Guilettes "sail trim users guide'.... then read the article on double headed rigs, etc. Correct nomenclature for stays on a cutter: Genoa/yankee - jibstay; stays'l - forestay (originally called the forestaysail). hope this helps.
Thanks for the kind words....
When sailing a cutter one has to remember that the CE is usually in FRONT of the mast (usually in the staysail) so that when sailing with a single sail up .... its usually with a large overlapping genoa or staysail. All the 'balance' stuff is easy once you know exactly where the CE is located .... and its NOT like a sloop!!!!!
When sailing a cutter one has to remember that the CE is usually in FRONT of the mast (usually in the staysail) so that when sailing with a single sail up .... its usually with a large overlapping genoa or staysail. All the 'balance' stuff is easy once you know exactly where the CE is located .... and its NOT like a sloop!!!!!
I like it...
because it is an easy-to-handle sail plan, works well in coastal California environment, and helps make the boat more stable in heavy conditions (which the Bay provides). It takes some time and experience to work out reducing power, but I agree with the comment that the boat is easily controlled with only a staysail and a reefed main (in 30 plus knots). Light air is a challenge downwind, but that was solved by the PO by adding a drifter. When it flies, he told me, you can drop the staysail, and go for it. FYI, the 37cutters were designed as cutters, as were the IPs mentioned before. They can be altered to sloops, but that's not what Cherubini intended, as has been discussed at length on this board in the past. (Obviously, I agree with Daryl...:>) Thanks for bringing up an interesting subject. Sanders s/v Good News H37c
because it is an easy-to-handle sail plan, works well in coastal California environment, and helps make the boat more stable in heavy conditions (which the Bay provides). It takes some time and experience to work out reducing power, but I agree with the comment that the boat is easily controlled with only a staysail and a reefed main (in 30 plus knots). Light air is a challenge downwind, but that was solved by the PO by adding a drifter. When it flies, he told me, you can drop the staysail, and go for it. FYI, the 37cutters were designed as cutters, as were the IPs mentioned before. They can be altered to sloops, but that's not what Cherubini intended, as has been discussed at length on this board in the past. (Obviously, I agree with Daryl...:>) Thanks for bringing up an interesting subject. Sanders s/v Good News H37c
RichH
If the CE is in front of the mast, wouldnt that mean that you would have Lee Helm instead of Weather Helm?
If the CE is in front of the mast, wouldnt that mean that you would have Lee Helm instead of Weather Helm?
No -
On a cutter the mast is about 40-45% between the bow and stern. On a masthead sloop its about 35-40% back from the bow, fractional sloop about 30-35% back. The CE on a cutter is slightly in front of the CLR, (just like a sloop) and it therefore 'balances'. The mast location really has no influence on where the CE-CLR line is. On sloops the balance point is usually just behind the mast and on cutters its usually just before the mast (usually near the middle of the staysail) Actually and unless you are using plywood sheets for sails the CE-CLR ratio is only a static 'concept'. When sailing its the dynamic components (due to sail shape and trim, etc. ) that derive the 'balance'. The designers CE-CLR is great but only if you are stopped and 90 degrees to the wind. <g>
On a cutter the mast is about 40-45% between the bow and stern. On a masthead sloop its about 35-40% back from the bow, fractional sloop about 30-35% back. The CE on a cutter is slightly in front of the CLR, (just like a sloop) and it therefore 'balances'. The mast location really has no influence on where the CE-CLR line is. On sloops the balance point is usually just behind the mast and on cutters its usually just before the mast (usually near the middle of the staysail) Actually and unless you are using plywood sheets for sails the CE-CLR ratio is only a static 'concept'. When sailing its the dynamic components (due to sail shape and trim, etc. ) that derive the 'balance'. The designers CE-CLR is great but only if you are stopped and 90 degrees to the wind. <g>
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