I have read a fair bit about weather helm and think I have a basic understanding of the causes and remedies. One of the major causes is angle of heel and my 1st question relates to the most efficient maximum angle of heel for a 35.5. I understand there will not be a definitive answer but I am looking for a general rule of thumb which would fit the hull design of the 35.5. ( I've had it at 40-45 and realize that is way too much) The 2nd question relates to the rudder angle created by moving the wheel. I have read that more than 3-5 degrees of rudder angle is inefficient. Has anyone actually taken the 35.5 out of the water and measured the rudder angle at various settings. I am often sailing with the wheel turned 90 degrees to compensate for the weather helm and I would like to know what that relates to in degrees of rudder angle. Any feedback would be appreciated, Thanks Don
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Twenty Degrees
Don, I have found the most efficient and balanced (but not necessarily the most exciting) sailing on my 35.5 to be around 20 degrees of heel. If sustained winds cause excessive heel and weather helm, then to balance you need to depower by either reefing the main, furling or changing the headsail, using the traveler to spill off some wind, or a combination thereof. I don't know the relationship between the turn of the wheel and the angle of the rudder, but if everything is in balance, you won't need to turn the wheel 90 degrees to compensate.
Don, I have found the most efficient and balanced (but not necessarily the most exciting) sailing on my 35.5 to be around 20 degrees of heel. If sustained winds cause excessive heel and weather helm, then to balance you need to depower by either reefing the main, furling or changing the headsail, using the traveler to spill off some wind, or a combination thereof. I don't know the relationship between the turn of the wheel and the angle of the rudder, but if everything is in balance, you won't need to turn the wheel 90 degrees to compensate.
Excessive heel
Excessive heel much beyond 15 degrees (20 is ok),adds a great deal of inefficiency to sailing.I am sure there will be people that tell you that a lot of heeling makes you faster but by the laws of physics that is not possible since as you heel,the weather helm increases the angle of yyour rudder against the water flowing by.This increases the resistance to boat movement through the water.There are some good articles at Sailnet on sailing that explains sail trim and physics. Good Luck
Excessive heel much beyond 15 degrees (20 is ok),adds a great deal of inefficiency to sailing.I am sure there will be people that tell you that a lot of heeling makes you faster but by the laws of physics that is not possible since as you heel,the weather helm increases the angle of yyour rudder against the water flowing by.This increases the resistance to boat movement through the water.There are some good articles at Sailnet on sailing that explains sail trim and physics. Good Luck
rudder angle
In answer to your rudder angle question, my ST6000 rudder angle reading when I have the wheel turned 90 degrees is 14 degress of rudder. Not all things are equal here but that might give you an idea. Don Illusion H 40.5
In answer to your rudder angle question, my ST6000 rudder angle reading when I have the wheel turned 90 degrees is 14 degress of rudder. Not all things are equal here but that might give you an idea. Don Illusion H 40.5
Weather helm..
.. can be controlled in other ways than reefing. Reefing is one of the stages, but there are others to be taken before. Depowering the main by flattening is your first option. Flattening is accomplished by mainsheet, vang, backstay, outhaul, cunningham and halyard tension. Do not ease the mainsheet. That will only power up the main and increase helm. This will also decrease your heel. Your most efficient angle of heel is 15-20 degrees. In light air, you move crew to the leeward rail to increase heel, and you do the reverse as the heel passes 20degrees. After flattening, lower the traveller. This changes the angle of attack of the main, which lowers the heeling force. You will find that a small amount of traveller adjustment will make a large change in the helm. Only after that, over 30 knts, will you need to reef.
.. can be controlled in other ways than reefing. Reefing is one of the stages, but there are others to be taken before. Depowering the main by flattening is your first option. Flattening is accomplished by mainsheet, vang, backstay, outhaul, cunningham and halyard tension. Do not ease the mainsheet. That will only power up the main and increase helm. This will also decrease your heel. Your most efficient angle of heel is 15-20 degrees. In light air, you move crew to the leeward rail to increase heel, and you do the reverse as the heel passes 20degrees. After flattening, lower the traveller. This changes the angle of attack of the main, which lowers the heeling force. You will find that a small amount of traveller adjustment will make a large change in the helm. Only after that, over 30 knts, will you need to reef.
alan come sail my boat
i agree with everything you said, except the dont reef til you hit 30 kts comment, have you ever sailed a 35.5 in those conditions without reefing and still had lets say 25 deg or less heel, and no wx helm, if so i need to go sailing with you and learn how its done.
i agree with everything you said, except the dont reef til you hit 30 kts comment, have you ever sailed a 35.5 in those conditions without reefing and still had lets say 25 deg or less heel, and no wx helm, if so i need to go sailing with you and learn how its done.
What Are Your Sails Like?
Don - you didn't mention anything about your sails. Are they original? Do you know if the sail shape is good? Has a sailmaker ever looked at them for draft? A cheap way to find out about the condition of the sails is to take digital pictures from the deck looking up the sail, trying to get the largest section from luff to leach. North Sails, and maybe other lofts, have the capability via a computer program to determine how your draft compares with optimum. It really helps them to have some draft stripes because it makes viewing sail shape much easier. Sail shape is a MAJOR factor in weather helm. Are you in Vancouver BC or Washington?
Don - you didn't mention anything about your sails. Are they original? Do you know if the sail shape is good? Has a sailmaker ever looked at them for draft? A cheap way to find out about the condition of the sails is to take digital pictures from the deck looking up the sail, trying to get the largest section from luff to leach. North Sails, and maybe other lofts, have the capability via a computer program to determine how your draft compares with optimum. It really helps them to have some draft stripes because it makes viewing sail shape much easier. Sail shape is a MAJOR factor in weather helm. Are you in Vancouver BC or Washington?
Pay Out Traveller
I sail my 35.5 at 20-25 degrees of heel without excessive weather helm. But when the wheel starts getting a little tough to handle I drop down the traveller in one or two inch increments until it improves. Actually I prefer sailing the boat flatter as it is less fatiguing and my wife complains less particularly when she is trying to prepare lunch. I also prefer dumping some wind with the traveller [or main sheet or both] to reefing as long as the boat keeps footing. Fred Miller, M Squared
I sail my 35.5 at 20-25 degrees of heel without excessive weather helm. But when the wheel starts getting a little tough to handle I drop down the traveller in one or two inch increments until it improves. Actually I prefer sailing the boat flatter as it is less fatiguing and my wife complains less particularly when she is trying to prepare lunch. I also prefer dumping some wind with the traveller [or main sheet or both] to reefing as long as the boat keeps footing. Fred Miller, M Squared
Hey Fred.........
.......if your last name had started with an "R" instead of an "M", AND IF my boat were docked to port of your boat, we would have quite the combination of sterns!!!
.......if your last name had started with an "R" instead of an "M", AND IF my boat were docked to port of your boat, we would have quite the combination of sterns!!!
Ted,
John makes a good point about the condition of your sails. Blown out dacron sails are impossible to flatten and therefore will have a great deal of weather helm. My sails are fairly new tri-radial kevlar and can be flattened almost to a board. Also the control lines are spectra, which means that they stretch very little. This means that when the lines are tensioned, they maitain the sail shape that I want. I have sailed my 35.5 in winds approaching 50kts with a reef in. I regularly sail in 30 kts with a full main. On a beat with a reefed main and blade #3 the boat is very well balanced and points extremely well.
John makes a good point about the condition of your sails. Blown out dacron sails are impossible to flatten and therefore will have a great deal of weather helm. My sails are fairly new tri-radial kevlar and can be flattened almost to a board. Also the control lines are spectra, which means that they stretch very little. This means that when the lines are tensioned, they maitain the sail shape that I want. I have sailed my 35.5 in winds approaching 50kts with a reef in. I regularly sail in 30 kts with a full main. On a beat with a reefed main and blade #3 the boat is very well balanced and points extremely well.
alan your my hero!
im a puss, ive been in 50kts also but i was all the way down to my third reef.
im a puss, ive been in 50kts also but i was all the way down to my third reef.
Rigg tuning
I had a great deal of trouble with weather helm which was largely due to poor tuning of the rigging. The mast was raked to far aft and the shrouds were out of balance. Crusing Specialists, the dealer who sold me my 35.5 has done gelcoat and chain plate repairs and failed to properly tune the rigging afterward. Once this was complete it greatly improved. Still I find that when sailing close hauled, I need to reef the main above 22 kts and both the main and head sail above 30 kts to maintain control and balance.
I had a great deal of trouble with weather helm which was largely due to poor tuning of the rigging. The mast was raked to far aft and the shrouds were out of balance. Crusing Specialists, the dealer who sold me my 35.5 has done gelcoat and chain plate repairs and failed to properly tune the rigging afterward. Once this was complete it greatly improved. Still I find that when sailing close hauled, I need to reef the main above 22 kts and both the main and head sail above 30 kts to maintain control and balance.
Rig tuning in SF area
David- Crusing Specialists sent me to Nelson's. Not much improvement in quality. Where do you shop for your 35.5 service now? Send email address if you desire to take off forum.
David- Crusing Specialists sent me to Nelson's. Not much improvement in quality. Where do you shop for your 35.5 service now? Send email address if you desire to take off forum.
David is correct....
....about rig tuning. I found, shortly after aquiring my 35.5, that it was VERY sensitive to rig tuning. Had a lot of WX helm when the boat was first purchased in 2000. Also, it was different on each tack. BIG improvement after tuning the rig! As far as the mast being raked too far aft: How much is too far? When the mast is raked with backstay tension the draft will move aft. The remedy is to tighten the cunningham so that the draft moves forward. This goes along with what Alan said about flattening the main. Tighten all the corners after applying backstay tension. Now if I had spectra lines and Kevlar laminate sails like Alan, I might be able to reef down at 30 instead of 20 also.
....about rig tuning. I found, shortly after aquiring my 35.5, that it was VERY sensitive to rig tuning. Had a lot of WX helm when the boat was first purchased in 2000. Also, it was different on each tack. BIG improvement after tuning the rig! As far as the mast being raked too far aft: How much is too far? When the mast is raked with backstay tension the draft will move aft. The remedy is to tighten the cunningham so that the draft moves forward. This goes along with what Alan said about flattening the main. Tighten all the corners after applying backstay tension. Now if I had spectra lines and Kevlar laminate sails like Alan, I might be able to reef down at 30 instead of 20 also.
Pat
I know what you are saying about adding backstay tension to flatten the main and sharpen the entry of the jib, but that is not 'rake', it's mast bend. Rake can ONLY be set with headstay length. The two may seem to one in the same, but they are definitely two different things.
I know what you are saying about adding backstay tension to flatten the main and sharpen the entry of the jib, but that is not 'rake', it's mast bend. Rake can ONLY be set with headstay length. The two may seem to one in the same, but they are definitely two different things.
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