OK, I've been through the threads in the Forum Archives regarding weather helm issues and I still cannot determine my specific problem. I have a 78 with the standard mast, not the tall rig. The main is old, probably the original sail. Before you say aha!, let me continue. With Cunningham, outhaul and vang, I can control draft location, but not fullness. The sail is just too baggy to be effectively flattened. The furling jib is a 150 and also is old and full. I have been able to sail in winds of +/-20 knots, full main and jib and no more than 20 degrees of heel, but with excessive weather helm on any point of sail but dead downwind. I mean excessive, sometimes countersteering with as much as 180 degrees of helm. I have tried all kinds of traveler positions and mainsheet tensions, with various block positions and sheet tensions for the jib, with little or no positive results. The mast rake has been measured at +/- 7 inches, which does not sound excessive to me. Rig was tuned in 11/01 One of the threads I followed in the Archives was a discussion of old full mains being the cause of weather helm. I know I'm looking for balance, but I wonder if the old main and old jib would not cancel each other out, i.e. the old main inducing weather helm and the old jib inducing lee helm.
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Seems excessive to me!
David: This seems like excessive mast rake to me (7"). If I were you I'd cut that in half and try it. I sail on a H'30 on a regular basis and I am fairly sure that there is no where near this much mast rake. By the way, we sail in 10-20 mph winds on a regular basis. This boat has a small jib (self tending) and a main that is only 3-5 years old. The helm on this boat is very neutral and very little weather helm. Your sails may be a problem too but it sounds like you want correct your sails problems with rig tuning. You may want to get Toss's rigging books and videos and get some other insite. Check with some other H'30 owners and see how their boats are rigged.
David: This seems like excessive mast rake to me (7"). If I were you I'd cut that in half and try it. I sail on a H'30 on a regular basis and I am fairly sure that there is no where near this much mast rake. By the way, we sail in 10-20 mph winds on a regular basis. This boat has a small jib (self tending) and a main that is only 3-5 years old. The helm on this boat is very neutral and very little weather helm. Your sails may be a problem too but it sounds like you want correct your sails problems with rig tuning. You may want to get Toss's rigging books and videos and get some other insite. Check with some other H'30 owners and see how their boats are rigged.
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henry Weber
Dave, I think you may be correct about the jib countering the weatherhelm problem of the main, BUT only if it is a small jib. With your baggy 150 genny which has so much overlap back of the mast I think you will produce more weatherhelm. It has to do with the effective force vector on the jib moving aft as the size of jib increases.I also sail a H30 1977. With the original small 110 jib there is hardly any wxhelm; I also have an old baggy huge genny (170%); it is good for light air on a reach but with any wind the weather helm is brutal. I also have less rake than your boat. Steve is right. Take out the excessive rake, pick up some decent used sails and you will find you are sailing a dream boat. Good luck, Henry
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coleman brydon
If you have a backstay adjuster, I suggest you let up on it. Think of a windsurfer - to head into the wind, he pulls his mast aft. Yours sounds like it is too far aft.
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David Popken
Mast Rake
7 inches of mast rake is too much? Ok, i'd like to believe that the rake is most of the problem. A related issue. My Harken roller furling appears to not have a turnbuckle to adjust, just about 1-2 inches of a threaded rod exposed below the drum. Anyone familiar with the Harken system and how to adjust?
7 inches of mast rake is too much? Ok, i'd like to believe that the rake is most of the problem. A related issue. My Harken roller furling appears to not have a turnbuckle to adjust, just about 1-2 inches of a threaded rod exposed below the drum. Anyone familiar with the Harken system and how to adjust?
Inside the furler!
David: I think that the turnbuckle is up inside the furler. I assume that you bought this boat with the furler on it! I think that the headstay ususally needs to be replaced when they put the furler on. You may want to pay someone to do the entire job for you and make them responsible for the tuning and replacment of the headstay.
David: I think that the turnbuckle is up inside the furler. I assume that you bought this boat with the furler on it! I think that the headstay ususally needs to be replaced when they put the furler on. You may want to pay someone to do the entire job for you and make them responsible for the tuning and replacment of the headstay.
David, check this out!
http://harken.com/furling/qa-instl.php This may answer some questions about the furler
http://harken.com/furling/qa-instl.php This may answer some questions about the furler
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Peter Roach
check to see if you are backwinding your
main with the jib. You can look at the front of the main to see if there is a noticeable bump from the backwind. This would depower the main A LOT and possibly cause weather helm. The reason this may be a problem is as the jib gets more baggie, most people tighten the leech line to keep it from flogging. If the back of the jib has a noticeable hook in it then it is pretty tight. It might be pushing the wind into your main. If this is the case you need to either let off of your leech line or fly your jib out a little more than normal. Your pointing will suffer but - you have old sails. If that is not your problem then try letting off a couple of turns on your back stay and taking in a couple on your forestay. I know this will detune your rig but - you have old sails. The tuning guide for your boat assumes good sails. In essence you will be tuning your rig for the sails. Good luck - there are a lot of other things that can be the cause of the problem - weight on the boat, main sail is too far out, etc.
main with the jib. You can look at the front of the main to see if there is a noticeable bump from the backwind. This would depower the main A LOT and possibly cause weather helm. The reason this may be a problem is as the jib gets more baggie, most people tighten the leech line to keep it from flogging. If the back of the jib has a noticeable hook in it then it is pretty tight. It might be pushing the wind into your main. If this is the case you need to either let off of your leech line or fly your jib out a little more than normal. Your pointing will suffer but - you have old sails. If that is not your problem then try letting off a couple of turns on your back stay and taking in a couple on your forestay. I know this will detune your rig but - you have old sails. The tuning guide for your boat assumes good sails. In essence you will be tuning your rig for the sails. Good luck - there are a lot of other things that can be the cause of the problem - weight on the boat, main sail is too far out, etc.
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Mike
Reef to cut down weather helm
Should reef way sooner than 20knots. I can't keep my 1981 Hunter 30 on it's feet to windward with full main and 130 jib in 20 knots. One reef (5 ft) and full jib works alot better with some weather helm which is OK in 20 knots. Easing the mainsheet in gusts over 20 also helps control it. My first reef goes in at 14-15 and my second at 25.
Should reef way sooner than 20knots. I can't keep my 1981 Hunter 30 on it's feet to windward with full main and 130 jib in 20 knots. One reef (5 ft) and full jib works alot better with some weather helm which is OK in 20 knots. Easing the mainsheet in gusts over 20 also helps control it. My first reef goes in at 14-15 and my second at 25.
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Tim
Here's what to do.
Weather helm comes from 1. the center of effort moving back, sometimes from the main overpowering the jib 2. the change in the under water shape of the hull changing as the boat heels and moving the center of resistance forward. You can't do much about #2 except to keep the boat on its feet, but you can deal with #1 while under way by doing the following, in order, as the wind increases. -flatten the main by increasing sheet and halyard tension -drop the traveller off to leeward to depower it further -tie in a flattening reef in the main (this is a cringle maybe 12" up the luff of the main) -reef the main At the dock, you can depower the main by increasing mast rake; problem is that the H30's got a tree trunk single spreader masthead rig that's not going to bend much so a backstay adjuster is pretty useless. I'm guessing you basically have a blown out main and someone was trying to fix this somewhat by putting a heckuva rake in your mast. 7" is a lot. No, an old jib does not balance an old main. Sorry, but an old baggy main is just gonna do this to you. This is a great sailing boat and worth investing in. Oh, you're not dragging a 3 blade prop are you? This also moves the center of resistance aft increasing weather helm.
Weather helm comes from 1. the center of effort moving back, sometimes from the main overpowering the jib 2. the change in the under water shape of the hull changing as the boat heels and moving the center of resistance forward. You can't do much about #2 except to keep the boat on its feet, but you can deal with #1 while under way by doing the following, in order, as the wind increases. -flatten the main by increasing sheet and halyard tension -drop the traveller off to leeward to depower it further -tie in a flattening reef in the main (this is a cringle maybe 12" up the luff of the main) -reef the main At the dock, you can depower the main by increasing mast rake; problem is that the H30's got a tree trunk single spreader masthead rig that's not going to bend much so a backstay adjuster is pretty useless. I'm guessing you basically have a blown out main and someone was trying to fix this somewhat by putting a heckuva rake in your mast. 7" is a lot. No, an old jib does not balance an old main. Sorry, but an old baggy main is just gonna do this to you. This is a great sailing boat and worth investing in. Oh, you're not dragging a 3 blade prop are you? This also moves the center of resistance aft increasing weather helm.
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David Popken
Yeah, it's a 3 blade prop
All sail trim techniques that you mentioned have been tried. Also, heel angle has not exceeded 20 degrees, which I have been told is not excessive, i.e. the boat has not been overpowered, but still has excessive weather helm. The mast rake may be a function of the roller furling system. It does not appear to have a turnbuckle, but just a threaded rod and a nut under the drum that cannot be adjusted too far. It looks like I may be able to get about an inch less length on the forestay by tightening the rod nut all the way. I'm not sure how much rake that will eliminate. By the way, mast rake increases weather helm, so less is my goal. A new main also....
All sail trim techniques that you mentioned have been tried. Also, heel angle has not exceeded 20 degrees, which I have been told is not excessive, i.e. the boat has not been overpowered, but still has excessive weather helm. The mast rake may be a function of the roller furling system. It does not appear to have a turnbuckle, but just a threaded rod and a nut under the drum that cannot be adjusted too far. It looks like I may be able to get about an inch less length on the forestay by tightening the rod nut all the way. I'm not sure how much rake that will eliminate. By the way, mast rake increases weather helm, so less is my goal. A new main also....
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