Weather Helm

[billmoff]

Jibs don't reef?!

You don't think jibs reef? Why do they call it "roller reefing?" The very purpose is to shorten the sail. Moreover, I have had two previous boats with hanked on sails on which one could reef the jib by reducing the foot. Jibs do reef, and don't you forget it, sailor - you may need it some day!

 

[Mike Burke]

heel me

I'm kinda new at this but I'm reading with great interest. It seems to me that weather helm increases as wind speed increases because 1 the main has more power2 the heeled rudder has less effect therefore reefing the main or depwering the main with the traveler or sheets lessens the heel angle which gives more bite to the rudder requiring less rudder to correct. ie less weather helm?Don't know all the facts but this seems pretty clear

 

[Justin Wolfe]

Mike, ummm???

Mike,Why would the main have more power? I assume you mean more power than the jib, but why would it suddenly have more? If the jib & main were producing the same power in 10 knots for instance, why would the main produce more power (heeling force) than the jib in 20 knots. The jib isn't immune to wind increases. While not exact due to rig height, the heeling force of the main & jib are going to increase proportionally regardless of wind strength. Why would the rudder be less effective as the boat heels? Unless the rudder starts to come out of the water (which even on a very wide Hunter this doesn't happen) what would cause the rudder to be less effective. Hydrodynamics would say that the faster a foil goes through the water the more effective it is. It is true that the rudder is not very good at bearing away as the boat heels, since the boat wants to turn into the wind as it heels the rudder has to overcome this to get the boat to bear off. Of course the rudder is very effective at turning the boat into the wind when heeled. Is that what you mean?

 

[Mickey McHugh]

Slot effect on weather helm

One reason a 155 Genoa is so much more effective to windward than say a 130, is the slot formed by the jib and the main. In light air I barely move with my 130 but hoist that 155 and Yaga takes off! Slot control (jib and main with the same twist) is very important in light air and if the rig is not properly designed, well you are just out of luck. The 40.5 has the right design and tools (adjustments to manage the slot) although a Barber hauler to move the sheet outboard with the same tension, might be nice. I enjoy standing on the stern rail seat (while holding on the split back-stay) and watching the slot work. It is best seen as far aft and as high as possible. [Back to Earth Mickey!]By roller reefing my 155 Genoa, I effectively open the slot so less air is compressed on the lee side of the main and the whole rig is instantly de-powered – what every heeling boat needs. Reefing the main also reduces power but the slot is still there, only the lift from the main sail moves forward therefore less weather helm so I tend to reef the main first. Buying that used miter cut 155 Genoa was the best $600 I ever spent (it was used twice on a 40.5 in San Diego). BTW, the miter cut holds its shape when reefed and the high clew keeps me from having to move the lead block as I reef since the sheet always bisects the clew angle maintaining an even luff. I do plan to add Genoa lead block adjustment lines so I can easily move them fwd and aft to open & close the upper leech under tension.

 

[Michael Cohn]

Jibs DO NOT reef!

Jibs really don't reef, except for the rare one that actually has reef points and the hardware to use them..A partially retracted furler turns a jib into a lumpy sack that cannot be properly called a sail, regardless of what the sailmakers tell you about foam luffs and the like. Granted, you can go downwind with one, but just try pointing - it doesn't work very well at all. The major advantages of a furler are convenience, and keeping people off the foredeck.The few reefable headsails I've seen work a bit better but are still not ideal..and they are very tough to deal with in terms of reefing and setting them properly.MC

 

[Bob E.]

Two more factors

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned mast rake as a factor in weather helm. If a boat has too much weather helm over a braod range of wind speeds (not just when it's really blowing), it probably means that the mast is raked too far aft and should be straightened by tightening the forestay and easing off the backstay (or swept shrouds).Another factor that I haven't seen mentioned (and I'm not sure is really important) could be drag from the keel. As the boat heels, the keel moves to windward and its drag adds to the forces turning the boat into the wind. So maybe fairing those keels would make a contribution to reducing weather helm. Any other opinions?

 

[Rick D]

Well, Bob E. Mast Rake..

..is certainly a factor. Had a 26' T-Bird for 19 years. It has a very fractional, bendy rig very much like a Star. It could develop impressive weather helm if the main wasn't depowered quickly and the last thing to go was the genny. It balanced well with a full genny and a no. 1 reef in the main. I first tried going down to a 110 before reefing and that was a big mistake. Also had a lot of weather helm corrected by raking the mast forward. Really helpful. FYI, with my V32, things are much simpler. I followed this string with some amusement, but also some longing for more stuff to play with <grin> RD

 

[Mike Burke]

mike umm

oh no no, I mean to say with an increasing wind the main will have more power than a main with less wind, irrespective on the jib. the main is primarily responsible ffor weather helm.. I always understood a heeled rudder to have less effect then a verticle rudder because the rudder isn't really turning the boat effeciently. in otherwords the heeled rudder is putting some of its effort into the verticle rather than horizontal plane. So the more heeled the boat the less efffect the rudder will have in the horizontal. This doesn't mean that the boat will go skyward or anything just less control

 

[Mickey McHugh]

For the record

I thought I should respond to Mike’s comments since they are about my post. He said - Jibs really don't reef, except for the rare one that actually has reef points and the hardware to use them.I say I must have a rare Genoa that DOES reef with very good shape without reef points and goes to windward in +30 knot winds.He said - A partially retracted furler turns a jib into a lumpy sack that cannot be properly called a sail, regardless of what the sailmakers tell you about foam luffs and the like. Granted, you can go downwind with one, but just try pointing - it doesn't work very well at all.I say my stock 130 jib IS a lumpy sack when rolled up, as most jibs would be. BUT as I said, I found a 155 Genoa that keeps its shape reefed to 50. Beyond that its useless. The foam luff and Miter cut apparently makes a big difference because I can point very well reefed at 100 in 20 kt winds, just as I can with full sail in 10 kt winds. He said - The major advantages of a furler are convenience, and keeping people off the foredeck.I say if you can make jib roller/REEFING work as a good way to easily reduce sail and maintain shape, then THAT becomes the major advance. Why keep a Genoa full as the winds increase when you have already reefed the main but you still have weather helm from excessive heeling? Full jib or nothing is not much of an option and I prefer not to have to change headsails in high winds. All of this is about reducing excessive weather helm.He said -The few reefable headsails I've seen work a bit better but are still not ideal and they are very tough to deal with in terms of reefing and setting them properly.I think Mike is talking about headsails with reef points. That’s old technology. Roller/reefing and a properly designed Genoa is current technology that might work on your boat. (maybe not) And you may have to spring the bucks for a new sail and maybe a roller furler designed to allow reefing.I am not a sailmaker, or a sail salesman – this WORKS on my 40.5 extremely well. I get excited when I think how lucky I was to see a classified ad on HOW for a used 155 Genoa and it turned out to be a great sail (Thanks Phil!). I just wanted to share my experiences, not get shot down. This will be my last post on this tread. Sorry it was so long, thanks to all for your time.

 

[Justin Wolfe]

Mike B. Okay...

Fair enough.I like the part about the heeled rudder. That is a good point. It just adds one more feather to why flat is fast.I think the observation about how a heeled keel (and rudder too) contribute to weather helm by creating drag that wants to turn the boat into the wind. That's neat. Something I hadn't considered. We're going cruising for the next 4 weeks. I'm going to play with some of these ideas and see what I learn...

 

[Mike DiMario]

Y'all invited !

To y'all experts,Our last boat b4 the H376 was a Prindle 16' CATAMARAN. Anybody wants to see the effects of rudder, mast rake, sail area, reeefing, barber hauling, sheeting, travelling, movable weight, rudder angle, mast bend are all invited 'cuz iwe still have the CAT. The ones that say they know might be dry after 5 minutes, the rest ..............! Well, come on down and give 'er a try.P.S. Y'all bring your wet suits he'ar? Might be a little nippy.Mike D.Media, PAS/V SerenityH376

 

[Justin Wolfe]

Sounds fun.

Mike D.Sounds great. When does the ice start forming out there. I grew up racing Sol Cat 18, Nacra 5.2, and Hobie 18's. I know what you mean. But my wife and recently owned and raced a 49er (olympic class, similar to an Aussie 18 or International 14) for a year. Gave new meaning to the term stability. Now the cat seems cushy. Still tons o' fun though. We still have our wetsuits and harnesses!