I have a Morgan 41 Out Island Ketch and I was sailing yesterday and noticed I was getting pretty bad weather helm. Apparent wind was 7-8kt, SOG was 4kt average, 130-140° AWA off my starboard, gusting up to 11kt, seas were 2-3ft@3-4sec coming from 160-170° off my port, heeling about 2-3°, 5° during puffs. I have a 135 Genoa with the Genoa blocks set at a neutral position currently. The rudder was at 8-10° port just to try and sail the boat straight. My autopilot pump failed so Im having to hand steer the remainder of this trip. I eased the main and the mizzen, yet was still getting bad weather helm. I dropped the main entirely and still had the same results. Dropped the mizzen as well, and the same thing. I'm baffled and confused. Should I move my Genoa blocks forward or aft? Reef the Genoa? I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I know I'm doing something wrong.
Weather Helm while Broad Reaching w/ only headsail?
- Thread starter charisma850
- Start date
Sounds like you understand the relationship between trim, balance and helm. Especially with a ketch rig where helm issues are easily addressed. You didn't say how long this has been occurring but sounds like something new. I'd take a look under the boat; see if anything is amiss that you can't see. You could have snagged something, a stray mooring line for instance. Or perhaps the person who cleans the bottom of your boat is not doing a complete job. That happened to me a few years back, Here in california we leave the boats in the water year round and employ divers to do monthly maintenance on the hulls. I had guy who got lazy and decided he would just wipe down the water line, thinking I'd never know, because I don't dive on the bottom that much. Anyway, I notice my boatspeed wasn't what I was used to and after a few times out... I became concerned and put on the gear to take a look myself. Damn if there wasn't a huge forest of growth on the keel.... looked like a big tumbleweed had attached itself... needless to say I was pretty angry.
Anyway, I'm just suggesting this because you seemed to have covered the above water fixes... good luck. Would be interested to know what you find out.
Anyway, I'm just suggesting this because you seemed to have covered the above water fixes... good luck. Would be interested to know what you find out.
Check your rig tuning. Did you notice a difference between port and starboard tack? Make sure the mast is centered, prebend and rake are within suggested range per your manufacturer.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,683
Wind 130º-140º from starboard aft beam.
With only your Genoa eased to trim for broad reach, the sail should be causing you to fall off to the lee (fall off to port).
To sail straight you would need to steer to weather.
Two ideas for consideration:
You say that the wave action is hitting the aft port side. With wind from starboard and waves from port I wonder if there was a current pushing the boat hull against the wind. Such a current and wind condition could set up a short period square wave pattern that caused what you described.
The other thought, have you checked the rudder alignment with what you identify on the wheel as centered. Considering you state there was a failure of the Auto Pilot, slippage of the steering cable can cause what you described.
With only your Genoa eased to trim for broad reach, the sail should be causing you to fall off to the lee (fall off to port).
To sail straight you would need to steer to weather.
Two ideas for consideration:
You say that the wave action is hitting the aft port side. With wind from starboard and waves from port I wonder if there was a current pushing the boat hull against the wind. Such a current and wind condition could set up a short period square wave pattern that caused what you described.
The other thought, have you checked the rudder alignment with what you identify on the wheel as centered. Considering you state there was a failure of the Auto Pilot, slippage of the steering cable can cause what you described.
I seem to have fixed it, somehow. I was looking through weather helm threads on another site and one suggestion was to reef the Genoa down to about a 90-100% Jib. I tried that, and now with all sails out and trimmed properly with the wheel at neutral 0 degrees, she sails perfectly in a straight line, even during puffs. No need for autopilot. Sailed today from Venice, FL to Egmond Key in Tampa. About 6 hours sailing. Only touched the wheel about 3 times.
I know I do need a bottom job in the next few months, but when I left 2 weeks ago, I had the bottom and prop cleaned. I think it is still pretty clean cause I've been on the move, but the water is really murky and pretty gross right now so I have no clue. Where I was in South Florida, we need bottom cleanings every 2 weeks. Current water temp here is 89°F. And I've honestly never really had this problem because I rarely sail on a Broad Reach. Most of my sailing is done on a Close/Beam Reach or Running.
I appreciate the advice though! Thank you!
This is not that weird. With the sails eased well off, the direction of pull was from well to port of the keel. Thus, the boat wanted to rotate to starboard. Easing the sails at this point will just make it worse, because the flow is stalled and the lever just moves farther outboard. The true wind was nearly dead astern. waver were striking the quarter. Of course you had weather helm. Dropping the main and mizzen does not solve the problem on all boats.
Wing and wing would solve it. Run DDW wing-and-wing. Do you have a whisker pole? Heating up the course (AWA ~ 100 degrees) would probably help a good bit, because the flow over the rudder will improve. But at 4 knots the rudder is inefficient. Probably small for the boat.
I have no idea what neutral lead position means. Center of the track? Obviously, they should be hauled outboard. The jib only pushes the bow to leeward with the wind forward of ~ 120 degrees apparent. Aft of that, weather helm. The rules change.
[I'm guessing the autopilot has been working hard and you did not notice.]
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Reefing the jib brings it closer to the boat and moves the lever from port to more centered. Another solution.
Wing and wing would solve it. Run DDW wing-and-wing. Do you have a whisker pole? Heating up the course (AWA ~ 100 degrees) would probably help a good bit, because the flow over the rudder will improve. But at 4 knots the rudder is inefficient. Probably small for the boat.
I have no idea what neutral lead position means. Center of the track? Obviously, they should be hauled outboard. The jib only pushes the bow to leeward with the wind forward of ~ 120 degrees apparent. Aft of that, weather helm. The rules change.
[I'm guessing the autopilot has been working hard and you did not notice.]
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Reefing the jib brings it closer to the boat and moves the lever from port to more centered. Another solution.
I did notice both my forward leaning lower shrouds are pretty loose while the aft leaning lower shrouds are taught, in idle position. I'll try messing with them a bit.
I did manage to balance the boat out, oddly enough. I read somewhere to try and reef the Genoa down to a 90-100%. I did that and trimmed the main and mizzen and viola. She balanced out perfectly and stayed at 330° heading for nearly 6 hours with very little deviation, even during puffs.
I appreciate the reply! Still working out the kinks and learning this boat as she's my first ketch rigged boat and also the only ketch rig I've ever sailed so it's pretty new to me. Thank you!
Yeah, the seas have been pretty funky with ground swell not matching up with wind direction. And, my boat has full hydraulic steering. The failure seems to be either the autopilot hydraulic pump or the computer itself. Won't know until I get to my destination and fully test everything.
I seemed to have figured out the weather helm. I ended up having to reef my Genoa down to about a 90-100% Jib. With the main and mizzen trimmed properly, she sailed like a dream and kept heading just like it would with autopilot. It makes little to no sense in my head why that worked but it works.
Thank you for the advice and for responding!
I think you're spot on with the assessment. I reefed the Genoa down to about a 90-100%, eased the main and mizzen out while trimming the Genoa in, and she balanced out very well.
From my knowledge, neutral lead position for Genoa blocks is set where the leech and the foot have the same tension on them. Might be another term for them though.
I do have a whisker pole as well and could run DDW. Actually curious on how to balance the helm running DDW. Do you just furl the Genoa until it's about the same size as the main running wing on wing? Do I run with the Genoa, main and mizzen all staggered(genoa to port, main to starboard and mizzen to port)? This is my first Ketch rig and I'm still learning the proper ways to sail it. Quite a bit different than a standard sloop or cutter rig.
Thank you for responding and giving a very detailed answer!
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 21,683