I am new to a C-22, but believe I am experiencing excessive weather helm in moderate to heavy air. My mast is raked fairly forward, so I don’t think that is it. The rudder seems to be a poor design. (It is the non-kickup type.) I am considering drawing the lower part of my rudder forward by re-drilling the hole(s) in the top rudder mount brace, forcing the top of the rudder aft and the bottom forward. I have heard this has helped. (In fact an article in the Main Brace talks about a non-class legal rudder you can buy that has a much more pronounced leading edge.) Has anyone performed this or a similar type of mod? What were your results?
Weather Helm Rudder Mod
- Thread starter Mike4049
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New Plastic Rudder
I would redrill the rudder. Class rules listed on the Association website define how far forward you can move the rudder. If you are not racing, drill it for a good feel. I bought one of the plastic rudders. I love it! It always has a good feel. David
I would redrill the rudder. Class rules listed on the Association website define how far forward you can move the rudder. If you are not racing, drill it for a good feel. I bought one of the plastic rudders. I love it! It always has a good feel. David
Mast
Rake your mast the other way! Most masts should be tuned aft. Check the website previously mentioned
Rake your mast the other way! Most masts should be tuned aft. Check the website previously mentioned
Be Careful with the Plastic Rudder
Mike: I don't know if the plastic rudder that David Williams and David F. are talking about is the "kick-up" rudder or the standard rudder. I just listened to two Catalina 22 sailors last evening discuss the problems with their new High Density Poly Ethylene rudder. It seems that the problems aren't worked out of it yet. The problems were that it apparently absorbed water and swelled, and this swelling defeated the kick-up feature. They couldn't even PULL it back, due to the swelling. The swelling also made it very difficult to pull the shear pin out of the rudder and aluminum housing. Another problem is that the aluminum plates hit the little plastic trim piece that is screwed onto the stern, when the rudder is turned from side to side. So, this is limiting the arc that the rudder can actually be turned through. Another problem was that the heights of the pintles didn't agree with the height of the gudgeons so spacer washers had to be added to one of the pintles so that both would bear the weight of the rudder. They said that this was a bigger issue that it would seem to be, because the rudder had a tendency to float, so it had to be held downward until it could be pinned so that the rudder wouldn't push itself out of the gudgeons. Another issue was that it was suppose to not require bottom paint, but this is apparently not the case. They said that "all kinds of stuff" was growing on it. They seemed to like the performance of the rudder, and said that the boat turned quicker with it. They also said that the craftsmanship was good. I'm just mentioning the above issues to you because many hundreds of dollars have been involved with that rudder, both from the original purchase price, and also machine shop rework charges, and it still requires considerable additional rework. I just went through a fiasco of my own on a sail that I had made for my C-22. I was able to return the sail, and financially I got out of it OK, but the time wasted is unbelievable to me as I look back. You might want to wait a year before you order the plastic rudder, if it's the kick-up type that that you would be considering. Aldo
Mike: I don't know if the plastic rudder that David Williams and David F. are talking about is the "kick-up" rudder or the standard rudder. I just listened to two Catalina 22 sailors last evening discuss the problems with their new High Density Poly Ethylene rudder. It seems that the problems aren't worked out of it yet. The problems were that it apparently absorbed water and swelled, and this swelling defeated the kick-up feature. They couldn't even PULL it back, due to the swelling. The swelling also made it very difficult to pull the shear pin out of the rudder and aluminum housing. Another problem is that the aluminum plates hit the little plastic trim piece that is screwed onto the stern, when the rudder is turned from side to side. So, this is limiting the arc that the rudder can actually be turned through. Another problem was that the heights of the pintles didn't agree with the height of the gudgeons so spacer washers had to be added to one of the pintles so that both would bear the weight of the rudder. They said that this was a bigger issue that it would seem to be, because the rudder had a tendency to float, so it had to be held downward until it could be pinned so that the rudder wouldn't push itself out of the gudgeons. Another issue was that it was suppose to not require bottom paint, but this is apparently not the case. They said that "all kinds of stuff" was growing on it. They seemed to like the performance of the rudder, and said that the boat turned quicker with it. They also said that the craftsmanship was good. I'm just mentioning the above issues to you because many hundreds of dollars have been involved with that rudder, both from the original purchase price, and also machine shop rework charges, and it still requires considerable additional rework. I just went through a fiasco of my own on a sail that I had made for my C-22. I was able to return the sail, and financially I got out of it OK, but the time wasted is unbelievable to me as I look back. You might want to wait a year before you order the plastic rudder, if it's the kick-up type that that you would be considering. Aldo
Maybe I'll Alter the Stock Non-Kickup Rudder
Aldo - Thanks for taking the time to reply in detail. Have you heard of anyone modifying their stock non-kickup rudder by redrilling the gudgeon holes to cant the lower part of the rudder forward?
Aldo - Thanks for taking the time to reply in detail. Have you heard of anyone modifying their stock non-kickup rudder by redrilling the gudgeon holes to cant the lower part of the rudder forward?
Interesting Points
Aldo has some interesting points about the plastic rudder. Mine is a kick-up rudder, and it does stick between the plates. This is not because it takes on water and swells. It is because the plastic sticks to the aluminum side plates. I consider this feature both a good and a bad thing. On the good side, I do not have a problem with the rudder sliding back like I did with my original Catalina rudder. It will still kick up, if you hit debre. On the bad side, it is hard to raise. When we went to Florida, I had to stand on my swim ladder and pull my rudder up with my hand to beach land. Normally, I pull my boat out of the water, then raise the rudder. I wouldn't know about the rudder hitting the trim, because my trim is missing. My pintles fit perfectly on the gudgeons. Yes, the sea creatures will attach themselves to the rudder. I am very pleased with my plastic rudder. The boat handles great. This rudder does loose "bite" at a lower heal angle. It makes you sail the boat a little flatter, which is not a bad, because the C-22 is faster this way. It is not class legal for racing. If I was serious about racing, I would get a Catalina fixed rudder. They are lighter, and have a deeper "bite". I cannot pull my boat out of the water with a Catalina fixed rudder; it will hit the ground. I think the new fixed rudders are light. A friend said that his would float. My plastic rudder assymble is heavier than my old Catalina kick-up rudder assymble. David
Aldo has some interesting points about the plastic rudder. Mine is a kick-up rudder, and it does stick between the plates. This is not because it takes on water and swells. It is because the plastic sticks to the aluminum side plates. I consider this feature both a good and a bad thing. On the good side, I do not have a problem with the rudder sliding back like I did with my original Catalina rudder. It will still kick up, if you hit debre. On the bad side, it is hard to raise. When we went to Florida, I had to stand on my swim ladder and pull my rudder up with my hand to beach land. Normally, I pull my boat out of the water, then raise the rudder. I wouldn't know about the rudder hitting the trim, because my trim is missing. My pintles fit perfectly on the gudgeons. Yes, the sea creatures will attach themselves to the rudder. I am very pleased with my plastic rudder. The boat handles great. This rudder does loose "bite" at a lower heal angle. It makes you sail the boat a little flatter, which is not a bad, because the C-22 is faster this way. It is not class legal for racing. If I was serious about racing, I would get a Catalina fixed rudder. They are lighter, and have a deeper "bite". I cannot pull my boat out of the water with a Catalina fixed rudder; it will hit the ground. I think the new fixed rudders are light. A friend said that his would float. My plastic rudder assymble is heavier than my old Catalina kick-up rudder assymble. David
Aldo
In examining your post about people talking about their experiences with new plastic rudders, I note they may have installed new gudgeons improperly. Since you are talking about kick up rudders, and since the last time I checked the position of pintles in kick up rudders is not changed, I suspect the problem of the pintle and gudgeon heights not matching is caused by new gudgeons that were not properly installed to match the pintles on the kick up rudder, a most likely scenario if the original gudgeons were changed from 3/8 to1/2. Does this make sense to you?
In examining your post about people talking about their experiences with new plastic rudders, I note they may have installed new gudgeons improperly. Since you are talking about kick up rudders, and since the last time I checked the position of pintles in kick up rudders is not changed, I suspect the problem of the pintle and gudgeon heights not matching is caused by new gudgeons that were not properly installed to match the pintles on the kick up rudder, a most likely scenario if the original gudgeons were changed from 3/8 to1/2. Does this make sense to you?
Excessive weather helm
Mike: New sailors tend to over trim their mains and under trim their jibs. Also, you may have too much vang applied when you wish it loose to induce sail twist to spill wind. Further, you may need an effective outhaul for the main. You can see mine at the link listed below. With a good outhaul, you can flatten the main that will reduce its power and therefore should reduce weather helm. Try sailing with the main eased to just where it begins to luff and have the jib hauled in as tightly as possible. Further, loosen the vang. You might try sailing with the main reefed to see how the boat handles under that configuration. Try this first before making any rudder modifications. I have the standard rudder and if anything I experience lee helm, although probably caused by my relentless tendency to pinch into the wind.
Mike: New sailors tend to over trim their mains and under trim their jibs. Also, you may have too much vang applied when you wish it loose to induce sail twist to spill wind. Further, you may need an effective outhaul for the main. You can see mine at the link listed below. With a good outhaul, you can flatten the main that will reduce its power and therefore should reduce weather helm. Try sailing with the main eased to just where it begins to luff and have the jib hauled in as tightly as possible. Further, loosen the vang. You might try sailing with the main reefed to see how the boat handles under that configuration. Try this first before making any rudder modifications. I have the standard rudder and if anything I experience lee helm, although probably caused by my relentless tendency to pinch into the wind.
Bayard
Bayard: I don't think that the gudgeons were moved on the particular boat that I mentioned on my previous response. The owner is rather anal about not drilling holes in the boat. What the other owner said was that he thought that the difference in height between the two gudgeons was not standard. I don't think that is the case, but this boat is either a 1986 or 1987, that is, newer than ours, so maybe a change was made by Catalina when that series of C-22s was made. And, the pintles are larger in diameter than on mine, mine are 3/8 inch in diameter if I remember correctly, and theirs are probably 1/2 inch. It was actually the metal part of their old rudder that cracked around the pintles that was the reason that they replaced their rudder in the first place. Aldo
Bayard: I don't think that the gudgeons were moved on the particular boat that I mentioned on my previous response. The owner is rather anal about not drilling holes in the boat. What the other owner said was that he thought that the difference in height between the two gudgeons was not standard. I don't think that is the case, but this boat is either a 1986 or 1987, that is, newer than ours, so maybe a change was made by Catalina when that series of C-22s was made. And, the pintles are larger in diameter than on mine, mine are 3/8 inch in diameter if I remember correctly, and theirs are probably 1/2 inch. It was actually the metal part of their old rudder that cracked around the pintles that was the reason that they replaced their rudder in the first place. Aldo
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