For a year now, I've been struggling trying to figure out how water keeps getting into my bilge. What was confusing was that sometimes the water was fresh and sometimes it was salt water. I finally realized that in both cases, the water was entering through the opening in the mast for the in-mast roller furling main. (It's a keel-stepped mast, so it travels all the way down into the bilge.) The salt water was the result of sailing in rough seas; waves would splash up and over the deck and back to the mast. So my question is whether this is inevitable. Are roller furling masts designed to allow water to enter, or are they supposed to be sealed off below the furling mechanism? I saw the suggestion on another thread to drill a small hole and fill the mast with foam and then drill another hole above the foam to allow the water to exit. I suppose I could try this, but I'm reluctant to mess with the mast anymore than I have to.
Water entry through roller furler
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For those who figure
and have a lot of figures and formulas roaming around in their heads. Mostly just for fun. Ross?? I believe that this is the same place I get water into mine, although I do not have roller furling. On my mast, I have about 45' of exposed sail track. Below the goose neck, there is an insert in the track that covers it. Here on the gulf coast we get some pretty severe thunderstorms, particularly in the spring. Sometimes 3" or more per hour. So, lets suppose that a thunderstorm rolls through. Rain of 3" per hour, for an hour, and winds of 30 knots from dead astern. How much water is going to get into the track, and run down to the bilge. That part is for fun. Here is the best solution I have come up with. I am thinking of drilling a small hole into the insert that covers the track, inside the boat. I have about 3/4" of mast that is covered by a trim piece where it comes through at the ceiling. My idea is to drill a small hole, right where the mast enters the boat, on the inside. Squirt some closed cell foam into the track at this point. Put the trim piece back on to cover the hole. Then, outside, under the mast boot, drill a drain hole into the insert. So figure away. And tell me whether or not you think my fix will work. I really do not want to fill the mast with foam. Radar is in my future, and I don't want to block the inside of the mast.
and have a lot of figures and formulas roaming around in their heads. Mostly just for fun. Ross?? I believe that this is the same place I get water into mine, although I do not have roller furling. On my mast, I have about 45' of exposed sail track. Below the goose neck, there is an insert in the track that covers it. Here on the gulf coast we get some pretty severe thunderstorms, particularly in the spring. Sometimes 3" or more per hour. So, lets suppose that a thunderstorm rolls through. Rain of 3" per hour, for an hour, and winds of 30 knots from dead astern. How much water is going to get into the track, and run down to the bilge. That part is for fun. Here is the best solution I have come up with. I am thinking of drilling a small hole into the insert that covers the track, inside the boat. I have about 3/4" of mast that is covered by a trim piece where it comes through at the ceiling. My idea is to drill a small hole, right where the mast enters the boat, on the inside. Squirt some closed cell foam into the track at this point. Put the trim piece back on to cover the hole. Then, outside, under the mast boot, drill a drain hole into the insert. So figure away. And tell me whether or not you think my fix will work. I really do not want to fill the mast with foam. Radar is in my future, and I don't want to block the inside of the mast.
It's not clear to me where the water is coming
in from: through the mast partners where it penetrates the deck or through the inside of the mast because of the opening in the aft side of the mast for the roller furling gear. All of the C34s and most likely the C36s also have spinnaker halyard exit plates near the top of the mast. These are "upside down" plates that let water in. Many skippers have plugged those plates to minimize ingress. If the mast partners are the issue, with a sail track at the aft side, there are any number of ways to deal with the "hole." Spartitie is one way, as is the link, see reply #6 with pictures. We have Harken BattCars on a track up the mast, don't use sail slugs, but the slot is still there in the mast extrusion. Don't know what to do if it's any opening because of the roller furling gear, but it would seem to me that that should have been a design issue where the spar manufacturer would have figured out a way to avoid water coming in at the base of the furling gear. I would be hesitant to drill any holes in the mast before figuring out other ways to avoid the problem, or learn to live with it. That's why there are bilge pumps. If it's fresh water, it's cleaning. If it's salt water, then it's either coming in the mast partners (see above) or through the furling gear. It seems that you are in the best position to answer the question of how the gear on YOUR boat is built. Have you tried spraying water through a hose at the base of the gear and seeing what happens? Others with roller furling mains could best answer what their installation consists of.
in from: through the mast partners where it penetrates the deck or through the inside of the mast because of the opening in the aft side of the mast for the roller furling gear. All of the C34s and most likely the C36s also have spinnaker halyard exit plates near the top of the mast. These are "upside down" plates that let water in. Many skippers have plugged those plates to minimize ingress. If the mast partners are the issue, with a sail track at the aft side, there are any number of ways to deal with the "hole." Spartitie is one way, as is the link, see reply #6 with pictures. We have Harken BattCars on a track up the mast, don't use sail slugs, but the slot is still there in the mast extrusion. Don't know what to do if it's any opening because of the roller furling gear, but it would seem to me that that should have been a design issue where the spar manufacturer would have figured out a way to avoid water coming in at the base of the furling gear. I would be hesitant to drill any holes in the mast before figuring out other ways to avoid the problem, or learn to live with it. That's why there are bilge pumps. If it's fresh water, it's cleaning. If it's salt water, then it's either coming in the mast partners (see above) or through the furling gear. It seems that you are in the best position to answer the question of how the gear on YOUR boat is built. Have you tried spraying water through a hose at the base of the gear and seeing what happens? Others with roller furling mains could best answer what their installation consists of.
I am sure
Stu, I'm pretty sure John is talking about water coming down inside the mast, and I am for sure talking inside inside the mast. I have done all the sealing, new boot stuff at the partner, and have it completely sealed up. But I do get water down the inside. As Ross had earlier stated, not much chance to get as much water as I get, from the openings for halyards etc. Several other Seidelman owners have exactly the same problem as I do. After a good hard rain, 2" or more of water into the bilge. I will NOT drill a hole in my mast. But, I have no problem with drilling a hole in the insert that covers the mast track, below the goose neck, and squirting some closed cell foam in there. I also suspect some water entry from the back side of the camel back helm seat. And your right, it's not a great big deal. The bilge pump easily handles the water that comes in. It is an irritant for my anal mind, plus a problem to play with, discuss, think about, experiment with and eventually solve.
Stu, I'm pretty sure John is talking about water coming down inside the mast, and I am for sure talking inside inside the mast. I have done all the sealing, new boot stuff at the partner, and have it completely sealed up. But I do get water down the inside. As Ross had earlier stated, not much chance to get as much water as I get, from the openings for halyards etc. Several other Seidelman owners have exactly the same problem as I do. After a good hard rain, 2" or more of water into the bilge. I will NOT drill a hole in my mast. But, I have no problem with drilling a hole in the insert that covers the mast track, below the goose neck, and squirting some closed cell foam in there. I also suspect some water entry from the back side of the camel back helm seat. And your right, it's not a great big deal. The bilge pump easily handles the water that comes in. It is an irritant for my anal mind, plus a problem to play with, discuss, think about, experiment with and eventually solve.
When...
When you find a way of keeping water out of the inside of a keel stepped mast please let myself and the other 10,000+ keel stepped boat owners know how you did it... There really is NO way your ever going to get it perfectly leak proof. I have a catch basin on my boat, specifically for the mast, that I drain after rain or fog. If it over flows it goes into the bilge but it has yet to happen...
When you find a way of keeping water out of the inside of a keel stepped mast please let myself and the other 10,000+ keel stepped boat owners know how you did it... There really is NO way your ever going to get it perfectly leak proof. I have a catch basin on my boat, specifically for the mast, that I drain after rain or fog. If it over flows it goes into the bilge but it has yet to happen...
First off . You can't blow foam into a vertical pipe and get it to
stay where you want it. It falls down . Next consider how high above the deck you would like to get the mast water tight. Sea water can be kept out with just a band on the mast that closes the slot below the sail. Does the furler mechanism extend below deck? If not then you could insert a bladder from a foot ball and inflate it just below the furler lower end. To answer your question ;"Are they designed to allow water to drain into the boat?" No. They just aren't designed not to.
stay where you want it. It falls down . Next consider how high above the deck you would like to get the mast water tight. Sea water can be kept out with just a band on the mast that closes the slot below the sail. Does the furler mechanism extend below deck? If not then you could insert a bladder from a foot ball and inflate it just below the furler lower end. To answer your question ;"Are they designed to allow water to drain into the boat?" No. They just aren't designed not to.
Charleston Spar
I spoke with a guy named Dave Lively from Charleston Spar, the manufacturer of this mast and furling system. (Incidentally, he is very busy but extremely helpful when one can finally get ahold of him.) He says that the later models of in-mast furling are designed to keep water out. they have a seal below the furling mechanism and a little weep hole just above this seal. As somebody else already stated, he also said that you cannot just blow foam into the mast, that it will fall down to the bottom if you try. He said that I need to look for the weep hole, and if I have one, see if it's plugged up. If not, or if I don't have one, then there is no such seal. He said that there's a way to seal it using some sort of balloon first. I'll let people know what comes of this. (He also e mailed me a copy of the manual for this system.)
I spoke with a guy named Dave Lively from Charleston Spar, the manufacturer of this mast and furling system. (Incidentally, he is very busy but extremely helpful when one can finally get ahold of him.) He says that the later models of in-mast furling are designed to keep water out. they have a seal below the furling mechanism and a little weep hole just above this seal. As somebody else already stated, he also said that you cannot just blow foam into the mast, that it will fall down to the bottom if you try. He said that I need to look for the weep hole, and if I have one, see if it's plugged up. If not, or if I don't have one, then there is no such seal. He said that there's a way to seal it using some sort of balloon first. I'll let people know what comes of this. (He also e mailed me a copy of the manual for this system.)
Ross, You just don't blow the foam in
It's under pressure in an aerosol type can, and the hole you drill is small, just large enough for the little plastic tube. You shoot it into place through the small plastic tube over to and against the far internal wall. You wipe the end of the little tube around the internal wall, and put some on the wires and anything else you can touch with the tube, and the goo sticks to everything it touches, and then it expands. then you add a little more, and in a couple of minutes you have a block of the stuff that sticks and expands into everything. If you haven't tried it you should. It's not all that expensive. Fisheries Supply (my local supplier) has "Fiber Glass-Evercoat expanding Foam Filler" a 12 oz sealant foam spray urethane FEC#654 for $18.05 list (you can get it for less). The description says "Seal, fill, caulk and insulate with this one component urethane foam. Foam expands and moisture cures to form a semi-rigid closed cell mass". The Features are:Fills large voids before the fiberglass work is done; reduces penetration;and 12 oz is equivalent to 24 tubes of calk. I haven't used the stuff in some time now, but it does work. Try it, you might like it. Good sailing Joe S
It's under pressure in an aerosol type can, and the hole you drill is small, just large enough for the little plastic tube. You shoot it into place through the small plastic tube over to and against the far internal wall. You wipe the end of the little tube around the internal wall, and put some on the wires and anything else you can touch with the tube, and the goo sticks to everything it touches, and then it expands. then you add a little more, and in a couple of minutes you have a block of the stuff that sticks and expands into everything. If you haven't tried it you should. It's not all that expensive. Fisheries Supply (my local supplier) has "Fiber Glass-Evercoat expanding Foam Filler" a 12 oz sealant foam spray urethane FEC#654 for $18.05 list (you can get it for less). The description says "Seal, fill, caulk and insulate with this one component urethane foam. Foam expands and moisture cures to form a semi-rigid closed cell mass". The Features are:Fills large voids before the fiberglass work is done; reduces penetration;and 12 oz is equivalent to 24 tubes of calk. I haven't used the stuff in some time now, but it does work. Try it, you might like it. Good sailing Joe S
JoeS. I am quite familar with Great stuff urethane foam
and Hilti canned foam neither of which cost more than ten dollars per can and expand to make about a gallon of foam. The stuff has a terrible tendency to sag without support. I have used it to set framing lumber in place in masonary structures where the old wood rotted away, to seal around water pipes and electrical penetrations on foundations and I agree it is excellant but it needs a little support in a vertical cavity.
and Hilti canned foam neither of which cost more than ten dollars per can and expand to make about a gallon of foam. The stuff has a terrible tendency to sag without support. I have used it to set framing lumber in place in masonary structures where the old wood rotted away, to seal around water pipes and electrical penetrations on foundations and I agree it is excellant but it needs a little support in a vertical cavity.
Drill a hole in the mast just a little bigger than the nozzle tube
I think the tube which is attach to foam can was about a 1/4" in dia and about 8" long. Put a small balloon over the tube and insert both into the hole that was drilled into the mast and squirt away. For the distance how far up the mast to drill the hole and depth, what size ballon to use..... Use Rule 26b A weep hole would be nice...again the size of hole and location....Use Rule 26b And for those of you positive positive thinkers....You CAN'T put a man on the paulj and if you failed to hold onto the ballon.....Well Rule 26b
I think the tube which is attach to foam can was about a 1/4" in dia and about 8" long. Put a small balloon over the tube and insert both into the hole that was drilled into the mast and squirt away. For the distance how far up the mast to drill the hole and depth, what size ballon to use..... Use Rule 26b A weep hole would be nice...again the size of hole and location....Use Rule 26b And for those of you positive positive thinkers....You CAN'T put a man on the paulj and if you failed to hold onto the ballon.....Well Rule 26b
Use Rule 26b
Ross Take another drive and think about it......come back and try it in a ballon. Now take another drive....now you can see how to do it. I'm trying to help John in Alameda. paulj
Ross Take another drive and think about it......come back and try it in a ballon. Now take another drive....now you can see how to do it. I'm trying to help John in Alameda. paulj
Paulj , I have a better idea! Before you try to sell a
method try it in your shop and make certain that it works. I speak from experience not from having watched a clever parlor trick. I never offer any solution as workable until I have proven it in my own work and experience. I do offer posible solutions that I think might work and that I would try in a similar situation.
method try it in your shop and make certain that it works. I speak from experience not from having watched a clever parlor trick. I never offer any solution as workable until I have proven it in my own work and experience. I do offer posible solutions that I think might work and that I would try in a similar situation.
I'm not sure
how much water comes in around the roller furler, or what the objectives are in that situation. In mine, I get a lot of water in during a hard rain. While I would like to be able to stop all of it, my main objective is to limit it down to a managable amount. Say a gallon or so, as opposed to the ten or fifteen gallons I now get in. I am still convinced that most of the water comes in from the mast track. Just can't see this much water getting into the halyard openings. Some one in a previous post had suggested a bunch of caulk on a sail slug, and sliding it down the track. By whatever method I end up using, I believe that sealing, or partially sealing the mast track, below the goose neck, and then drilling a small weep hole above the sealed area is the best solution. I am not familiar with the masts that use in mast furling, but don't think this would work on a furling mast.
how much water comes in around the roller furler, or what the objectives are in that situation. In mine, I get a lot of water in during a hard rain. While I would like to be able to stop all of it, my main objective is to limit it down to a managable amount. Say a gallon or so, as opposed to the ten or fifteen gallons I now get in. I am still convinced that most of the water comes in from the mast track. Just can't see this much water getting into the halyard openings. Some one in a previous post had suggested a bunch of caulk on a sail slug, and sliding it down the track. By whatever method I end up using, I believe that sealing, or partially sealing the mast track, below the goose neck, and then drilling a small weep hole above the sealed area is the best solution. I am not familiar with the masts that use in mast furling, but don't think this would work on a furling mast.
N&E , there is a gray semi plastic putty that electricians use
to seal penetrations in walls. It is quite durable and very removable so you could try that in various places and check the result. When you find one that works then you can make it more pemanent.
to seal penetrations in walls. It is quite durable and very removable so you could try that in various places and check the result. When you find one that works then you can make it more pemanent.
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