My wife and I purchased a 95 Hunter 23.5 last year and we are not very experienced sailers. We often sail on Lake Michigan between Arcadia and Frankfurt, usually there is plenty of wind and waves. We both get a little nervous when the lev-o-gauge says 20 degrees most of the time and gusts can take us up to 30 or 35. We would like to keep it at 10 - 15 with gusts up to 20. I know a lot of it is inexperience but any suggestions on making this boat a little more stable would be appreciated.
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Reefing is my first choice
Hopefully your sail has a reef point or two and since you didn't mention if you were reefed under these conditions my first choice would be to throw a reef in. Adding a reef point isn't that expensive. While it's possible to sail a boat well heeled the concern I'd have is for the "wear-and-tear" on your sails, both main and jib. Under heavy wind loads with OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) sails, which are not the heaviest material, they will stretch with time and the draft will increase. Once the draft has increased, when sailing by the luff or telltails, the boat will heel even more than when it was new. By reefing the main one can protect it from getting blown out and the boat will stand up better. The jib is another matter. Furling the jib will not give it the best sail shape but a sailmaker can offer suggestions about how to make a "reefing" jib. One of the things they do is install foam strips on the luff to take up the slack when the jib is partially furled. Changing to a smaller and heavier fabric jib is another option but not a lot of fun when it's already nasty. If it's suspected that the sail might be blown out you should take some pictures looking up the mast that can show the cross section shape. Show them to a sailmaker for their thoughts. A fix can be a recut or as another option, one can check out the availability of used sails. Anyway, thats my thought for starters. There is also the Doyle Sailmaker forum here too.
Hopefully your sail has a reef point or two and since you didn't mention if you were reefed under these conditions my first choice would be to throw a reef in. Adding a reef point isn't that expensive. While it's possible to sail a boat well heeled the concern I'd have is for the "wear-and-tear" on your sails, both main and jib. Under heavy wind loads with OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) sails, which are not the heaviest material, they will stretch with time and the draft will increase. Once the draft has increased, when sailing by the luff or telltails, the boat will heel even more than when it was new. By reefing the main one can protect it from getting blown out and the boat will stand up better. The jib is another matter. Furling the jib will not give it the best sail shape but a sailmaker can offer suggestions about how to make a "reefing" jib. One of the things they do is install foam strips on the luff to take up the slack when the jib is partially furled. Changing to a smaller and heavier fabric jib is another option but not a lot of fun when it's already nasty. If it's suspected that the sail might be blown out you should take some pictures looking up the mast that can show the cross section shape. Show them to a sailmaker for their thoughts. A fix can be a recut or as another option, one can check out the availability of used sails. Anyway, thats my thought for starters. There is also the Doyle Sailmaker forum here too.
I agree with John
Ryan, We have a H26 and on the standard eqiupment Doyle main sail the only reef point was in the #2 position. I posted a question on this form about a month ago asking about adding another reef point. The strong response was to add another, but to put it in at the #3 position. I had it done last week at a local sail shop for about $100. Check the h26 archive for the posting. Good luck, Ray
Ryan, We have a H26 and on the standard eqiupment Doyle main sail the only reef point was in the #2 position. I posted a question on this form about a month ago asking about adding another reef point. The strong response was to add another, but to put it in at the #3 position. I had it done last week at a local sail shop for about $100. Check the h26 archive for the posting. Good luck, Ray
My Way
I, too, own a 23.5, which my wife and I have sailed for five years. We know what you mean about uncomfortable heeling in strong winds. I don't know what the "purists" would say, but we occasionally use only one sail (either the jib or the main) in a heavy blow. As for reefing, I have not had the best success with reefing my main. I don't seem to get a very good sail shape with the reef--too much bagginess. The other solution is to head back to port, which we have done many times when the wind overpowers us. Early in our sailing life, with our smaller first boat, I made the mistake of trying to tough it out one heavy-weather afternoon. There was a serious question as to whether or not I would ever get my wife back on a boat. Best wishes.
I, too, own a 23.5, which my wife and I have sailed for five years. We know what you mean about uncomfortable heeling in strong winds. I don't know what the "purists" would say, but we occasionally use only one sail (either the jib or the main) in a heavy blow. As for reefing, I have not had the best success with reefing my main. I don't seem to get a very good sail shape with the reef--too much bagginess. The other solution is to head back to port, which we have done many times when the wind overpowers us. Early in our sailing life, with our smaller first boat, I made the mistake of trying to tough it out one heavy-weather afternoon. There was a serious question as to whether or not I would ever get my wife back on a boat. Best wishes.
heeling
You are correct in that 10-15 deg of heel is OK, but after that you don't gain any boat speed and the crew gets uncomfortable. Are you easing your main sheet when you get a gust? And use your boom vang to flatten the main and take out some of the twist. Its OK to cleat your vang, but stay heads-up on the mainsheet. Learn to anticipate the gusts by watching the ripple pattern on the water, then ease the sheet as neeeded.
You are correct in that 10-15 deg of heel is OK, but after that you don't gain any boat speed and the crew gets uncomfortable. Are you easing your main sheet when you get a gust? And use your boom vang to flatten the main and take out some of the twist. Its OK to cleat your vang, but stay heads-up on the mainsheet. Learn to anticipate the gusts by watching the ripple pattern on the water, then ease the sheet as neeeded.
Add a Backstay Adjuster
To improve both jib and mainsail shape when beating the addition of a backstay adjuster would really help. Look at any of the boats that race, at least the ones that come in near the top of their class, and you'll see they all have backstay adjusters. What this will do when tensions is added to the backstay is decrease the sag in the headstay which in turn reduces the draft of the jib. Other thing to check: Ensure the jib and main halyards are appropriately tensioned for windward work. There should be no horizontal wrinkles in the luff. As sails age the bolt rope shrinks so this makes it harder to eliminate the horizontal luff wrinkles. A cunningham on the main can also help improve the tension on the luff. One thing I like about the Hunter trailerables is they have a lot of sail area compared to the competition. One big name sail magazine (Cruising World or Sail, forgot which one) test last year said the Hunter was "tender" compared to the other boats tested. What they didn't factor in was that the main with a reef was the same size as the main on the competition. What the bigger main allows is more power in light wind and for downwind sailing, that way you don't have to use the motor as often. People put a lot of faith in what is said in big-name magazines and when this concept is overlooked it makes me doubt their professionalism as sailors. Personally, I'd much rather have the option to put a reef in the main and be able to sail in light winds than have a small sail plan and have to motor but then not everybody feels the way I do. And thanks for the ata-boy, Ray, it's appreciated!
To improve both jib and mainsail shape when beating the addition of a backstay adjuster would really help. Look at any of the boats that race, at least the ones that come in near the top of their class, and you'll see they all have backstay adjusters. What this will do when tensions is added to the backstay is decrease the sag in the headstay which in turn reduces the draft of the jib. Other thing to check: Ensure the jib and main halyards are appropriately tensioned for windward work. There should be no horizontal wrinkles in the luff. As sails age the bolt rope shrinks so this makes it harder to eliminate the horizontal luff wrinkles. A cunningham on the main can also help improve the tension on the luff. One thing I like about the Hunter trailerables is they have a lot of sail area compared to the competition. One big name sail magazine (Cruising World or Sail, forgot which one) test last year said the Hunter was "tender" compared to the other boats tested. What they didn't factor in was that the main with a reef was the same size as the main on the competition. What the bigger main allows is more power in light wind and for downwind sailing, that way you don't have to use the motor as often. People put a lot of faith in what is said in big-name magazines and when this concept is overlooked it makes me doubt their professionalism as sailors. Personally, I'd much rather have the option to put a reef in the main and be able to sail in light winds than have a small sail plan and have to motor but then not everybody feels the way I do. And thanks for the ata-boy, Ray, it's appreciated!
Gusty Winds
We sail on lakes with gusty winds. You can read the ripples on the water but often there's a surprise in the intensity or direction of a gust. You can change the rigging to some extent but the H23.5 is still a small WB boat and it's tender. I've been knocked down.... main sail kissing the water and a soggy jib, with no damage except to my ego. The real danger is in going overboard so the wearing of the "orange" is prudent in strong winds. It's really scary to be over-sailed and have the bow dive. As for strong straight line winds, a second reef point and a storm-jib are a real help. A roller furling is not a good substitute for a real storm jib! If you're squeamish about heeling to 30 or even 40 degrees occasionally, it's time to look at larger keel boats. Ken S/V Wouf Hong
We sail on lakes with gusty winds. You can read the ripples on the water but often there's a surprise in the intensity or direction of a gust. You can change the rigging to some extent but the H23.5 is still a small WB boat and it's tender. I've been knocked down.... main sail kissing the water and a soggy jib, with no damage except to my ego. The real danger is in going overboard so the wearing of the "orange" is prudent in strong winds. It's really scary to be over-sailed and have the bow dive. As for strong straight line winds, a second reef point and a storm-jib are a real help. A roller furling is not a good substitute for a real storm jib! If you're squeamish about heeling to 30 or even 40 degrees occasionally, it's time to look at larger keel boats. Ken S/V Wouf Hong
tips on sailing
As a general rule, heeling over 10-12 degrees is too much. You sail faster flatter. Suggest that you get roller furling for the jib if the boat does not have it already. You can furl the sail in first and then if you have to reef, then reef. Rule of thumb without furling is to reef in 11-13 knots of wind. then if the winds get to 16-18, drop jib. If you then cannot handle the boat, come in as you have no buisness out there. Been doing this ever since I towed the first 23.5 out of the factory. Crazy Dave Condon
As a general rule, heeling over 10-12 degrees is too much. You sail faster flatter. Suggest that you get roller furling for the jib if the boat does not have it already. You can furl the sail in first and then if you have to reef, then reef. Rule of thumb without furling is to reef in 11-13 knots of wind. then if the winds get to 16-18, drop jib. If you then cannot handle the boat, come in as you have no buisness out there. Been doing this ever since I towed the first 23.5 out of the factory. Crazy Dave Condon
Has to be fun.
Im no old salt, bought my first sailboat, an H26, 5 months ago. After sailing every weekend like a madman I figured that if I felt uncomfortable while sailing, I must of been doing something wrong. I sail in blue water and have sailed, in what i think are, pretty big waves. Ive learn the hard way to predict puffs so I just ease the mainsheet a lot. If its too much I close the jib, if its still too much ill try reefing, or just turn back and finish the beers at my slip
. Or get few overweight friends and sit them on the rail, that might work too. Just have fun. Carlitos H26 MArtina
Im no old salt, bought my first sailboat, an H26, 5 months ago. After sailing every weekend like a madman I figured that if I felt uncomfortable while sailing, I must of been doing something wrong. I sail in blue water and have sailed, in what i think are, pretty big waves. Ive learn the hard way to predict puffs so I just ease the mainsheet a lot. If its too much I close the jib, if its still too much ill try reefing, or just turn back and finish the beers at my slip
. Or get few overweight friends and sit them on the rail, that might work too. Just have fun. Carlitos H26 MArtinaInvite Experience Aboard
Ryan, As you may have discovered already, sailors are a friendly group of people for the most part. Invite an experienced sailor aboard for a sail. There is probably someone from your dock that would be happy to give you some tips. One that has the same boat would be great! They can show you and your wife things in one day that would take months of fumbling around in the water to learn. It will also give you some immediate confidence in your boat by showing you what it can and can't handle. Good Luck, Jeff S/V "Festivity" H26 1996
Ryan, As you may have discovered already, sailors are a friendly group of people for the most part. Invite an experienced sailor aboard for a sail. There is probably someone from your dock that would be happy to give you some tips. One that has the same boat would be great! They can show you and your wife things in one day that would take months of fumbling around in the water to learn. It will also give you some immediate confidence in your boat by showing you what it can and can't handle. Good Luck, Jeff S/V "Festivity" H26 1996
Beware of the "Experienced"
I've had three very experienced 'old salts' aboard and they love the H23.5! They can 'put the toe in water' and go for it..... things they'd never try with their 40' boats. It was the first time I'd seen the windows in the water. It probably stresses the sails and rigging a little but what fun! If you're up to the ride, then invite 'em aboard. Ken S/V Wouff Hong
I've had three very experienced 'old salts' aboard and they love the H23.5! They can 'put the toe in water' and go for it..... things they'd never try with their 40' boats. It was the first time I'd seen the windows in the water. It probably stresses the sails and rigging a little but what fun! If you're up to the ride, then invite 'em aboard. Ken S/V Wouff Hong
Sail trim and reefing
While my wing-keel H23 is not identical to the water-ballast H23.5, there are some basic techniques that can still be applied regardless: 1) do not be reluctant to reduce sail area. If the thought of reefing the main crosses your mind, go ahead and do it right away. Even better, put in a reef before you leave the dock if it looks like it's going to be very windy. It's easier to shake out a reef on the water than to put one in. As mentioned earlier, Hunters have powerful mains and should be reefed earlier than most other boats. 2) If reefing doesn't help the situation much, drop or furl the jib. Don't worry about what the "purists" would say; your comfort and safety are more important. Hunters sail fine under main alone. 3) work on your sail trim. The main can be depowered by tightening the outhaul, cunningham and backstay. Some of these controls are more effective than others and are dependent on the boat to some extent, so you will have to experiment a little. Also make sure that your topping lift and vang are loose if you're going upwind, otherwise the other controls won't work. Tightening the sail only works up to a point, because it also reduces twist, or the ability of the sail to spill wind. 4) use your main sheet and traveler more. You may have to ease the sheet or drop the traveler in the puffs to keep the boat on its feet. You can make good boatspeed upwind with the jib trimmed properly and a big bubble in the main. It looks ugly but you will be safe and comfortable. 5) Increase the twist of your sails to spill the wind off their tops. If you have adjustable jib leads, pull them aft. This tightens the foot of the jib and opens the leech. Pull the traveler UP and ease the mainsheet to keep the boom in position for proper trim on the bottom of the sail. This reduces the downward pull of the mainsheet and allows the boom to rise a bit, which opens the leech, increases the twist of the mainsail and spilling the wind off the top of the sail. This reduces heel while still giving you plenty of power to work the boat through the waves. 6) practice. Go out on windy days with just the reefed main and add more sail as your confidence level increases. It's the only way to develop the skills and experince to sail under less than ideal conditions. Who knows, you may need them one day. Good luck and happy sailing! Peter S/V Raven (Go Baltimore!)
While my wing-keel H23 is not identical to the water-ballast H23.5, there are some basic techniques that can still be applied regardless: 1) do not be reluctant to reduce sail area. If the thought of reefing the main crosses your mind, go ahead and do it right away. Even better, put in a reef before you leave the dock if it looks like it's going to be very windy. It's easier to shake out a reef on the water than to put one in. As mentioned earlier, Hunters have powerful mains and should be reefed earlier than most other boats. 2) If reefing doesn't help the situation much, drop or furl the jib. Don't worry about what the "purists" would say; your comfort and safety are more important. Hunters sail fine under main alone. 3) work on your sail trim. The main can be depowered by tightening the outhaul, cunningham and backstay. Some of these controls are more effective than others and are dependent on the boat to some extent, so you will have to experiment a little. Also make sure that your topping lift and vang are loose if you're going upwind, otherwise the other controls won't work. Tightening the sail only works up to a point, because it also reduces twist, or the ability of the sail to spill wind. 4) use your main sheet and traveler more. You may have to ease the sheet or drop the traveler in the puffs to keep the boat on its feet. You can make good boatspeed upwind with the jib trimmed properly and a big bubble in the main. It looks ugly but you will be safe and comfortable. 5) Increase the twist of your sails to spill the wind off their tops. If you have adjustable jib leads, pull them aft. This tightens the foot of the jib and opens the leech. Pull the traveler UP and ease the mainsheet to keep the boom in position for proper trim on the bottom of the sail. This reduces the downward pull of the mainsheet and allows the boom to rise a bit, which opens the leech, increases the twist of the mainsail and spilling the wind off the top of the sail. This reduces heel while still giving you plenty of power to work the boat through the waves. 6) practice. Go out on windy days with just the reefed main and add more sail as your confidence level increases. It's the only way to develop the skills and experince to sail under less than ideal conditions. Who knows, you may need them one day. Good luck and happy sailing! Peter S/V Raven (Go Baltimore!)
an experienced instructor
Taking someone experienced aboard is good advise. The warning is also good advise. You may want to hire a licensed captain/instructor for a day to help with sailing technique, anchoring, heaving-to, etc. The best advise...have fun.
Taking someone experienced aboard is good advise. The warning is also good advise. You may want to hire a licensed captain/instructor for a day to help with sailing technique, anchoring, heaving-to, etc. The best advise...have fun.
heeling , balt, n
Peter as usual gives great advice, then something strange happened, what was that off the wall remark about the browns, ravens ?????????/another nfl team waiting to depart in the darkness of night, or the fact that finally after 40 years artie ,has his ring, , ???/I am saddened, good ridiance to bad rubbish,/ enough ,Mike an Ohio sailor,
Peter as usual gives great advice, then something strange happened, what was that off the wall remark about the browns, ravens ?????????/another nfl team waiting to depart in the darkness of night, or the fact that finally after 40 years artie ,has his ring, , ???/I am saddened, good ridiance to bad rubbish,/ enough ,Mike an Ohio sailor,
Just a former 'Skins fan sounding off (for Mike B)
Sorry If I rubbed salt in your wound, Mike. Since I left Maryland eight years ago, I haven't been able to find a suitable replacement for my beloved Washington Redskins. All you get on TV here is Dolphins, Jags, Bucs, Gators and Seminoles. I was just glad to see a team from back home in Maryland (and the underdog to boot) stick it to old NFC East rival Giants. That, plus the coincidental name of my H23 (a name that has been handed down from two previous owners) did it for me. I can understand your disgust with Art Modell, because Browns fans were known as some of the most loyal in the league. These days, it seems nothing matters to sports team owners but the bottom line. It's their loss... Peter S/V Raven
Sorry If I rubbed salt in your wound, Mike. Since I left Maryland eight years ago, I haven't been able to find a suitable replacement for my beloved Washington Redskins. All you get on TV here is Dolphins, Jags, Bucs, Gators and Seminoles. I was just glad to see a team from back home in Maryland (and the underdog to boot) stick it to old NFC East rival Giants. That, plus the coincidental name of my H23 (a name that has been handed down from two previous owners) did it for me. I can understand your disgust with Art Modell, because Browns fans were known as some of the most loyal in the league. These days, it seems nothing matters to sports team owners but the bottom line. It's their loss... Peter S/V Raven
heeling raven,
Peter, not at all, it only sounded like that, sorry I gave u the wrong impresion, I always enjoy your advice, I am not at all a fan of anything from ny and think md is a beautiful state, Many people feel strongly on the issue, I am however an OSU fan and as long as they stay here I will be ok lol, have a great one, and go ravens, Mike B
Peter, not at all, it only sounded like that, sorry I gave u the wrong impresion, I always enjoy your advice, I am not at all a fan of anything from ny and think md is a beautiful state, Many people feel strongly on the issue, I am however an OSU fan and as long as they stay here I will be ok lol, have a great one, and go ravens, Mike B
Go Heels!
In North Carolina, we like to heel. Our Heels (Tar Heels) just put a reef in Duke's sails--in Cameron Indoor Stadium, Duke's home port. Are you sure that the ballast tank is full? We sometimes have to hold the valve open to make sure it fills completely on our 93 23.5. If its ok, put another reef in and enjoy the ride.
In North Carolina, we like to heel. Our Heels (Tar Heels) just put a reef in Duke's sails--in Cameron Indoor Stadium, Duke's home port. Are you sure that the ballast tank is full? We sometimes have to hold the valve open to make sure it fills completely on our 93 23.5. If its ok, put another reef in and enjoy the ride.
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