Vintage Wilcox Crittenden Head

NYSail · Feb 21, 2012

Now thats a nice looking toilet.....

redhead78 · Feb 21, 2012

Wow, looks like the marine version of Al Bundy's, "Fergeson 5000......Red

CalebD · Feb 21, 2012

I remember seeing these pictures at the sailnut forum. I encouraged you to post here so we could hear Peggy Hall's verdict. She is the "head mistress" after all.
I do hope there is some way you can scavenge most of the parts you might need for a 'service kit' or fabricate your own parts. It really is a unique looking head. It would be a pity to have to get a new one for lack of spare parts. They don't make stuff like they used to.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Feb 21, 2012

I'm 99% certain that model is the W-C "Winner" and it is from the 30s, maybe even the 20s. The last one I saw was on a Trumpy from that era.

Thetford Norcold bought Wilcox Crittenden several years ago...and then, because there isn't anywhere near as much profit in repair parts for high quality bronze thrones built to last 100 years as there is in repeat sales of cheap "disposable" toilets built to last only a year or two, they discontinued the whole W-C line including repair parts. Except for what few parts are still left in inventory, repair kits for more recent models--Skipper, Imperial and Headmate--are about all you can still get. BUT--there's one person at Thetford who'd know if you can still get anything for the Winner--Jock Allpress. Send him an email: JockO@thetford.com. He's pretty good at responding.

BCritter · Feb 22, 2012

I noticed that West Marine has a few parts for Wilcox Crittenden heads. Perhaps some of those parts may fit your model.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...44&adpos=1t1&gclid=CKeWk7Dtsa4CFSFeTAodADm9PA

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Feb 22, 2012

The Skipper and Imperial kits are the only ones are likely to have ANY parts that would fit the Winner...and I wouldn't spend $150+ unless I were sure that at LEAST 90% of 'em will.

These toilets are in a completely difference class than the most popular manual toilets. They cost $500-$700 25 years ago...are solid bronze (a shame the PO chromed the bronze 'cuz salt air does pit chrome) and built to last 100 years--which explains why the kits cost more than than a whole compact toilet. W-C--and also Groco, with their EB (also discontinued now) and model K toilets--designed 'em to be clones of the British toilets. Blakes Victory and Baby Blake...the undisputed best manual marine toilets in the world. The Blakes Victory has a price tag of about $10,000 (no, that's not a typo, that IS $10K) at today's rate of exchange and is only made to order. The Baby Blake is quite reasonably priced by comparison...only about $3500 at today's rate of exchange. The owners of these toilets rarely leave 'em on the boat when they sell it...they take 'em to the next boat.

The whole concept has become totally obsolete because our society now puts immediate gratification (quick profit) ahead of quality, reliability and durability...and not only mfrs, but consumers. I can't count the number of people over the years I've run into who've told me they took one of these wonderful machines to the dumpster because they could replace it with a Jabsco for less than the cost of the kit.

CalebD · Feb 22, 2012

See, Peggy knows her heads.
A quick internet search turns up the service kit for the WC "Winner" head: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|51|806|315199|315203&id=199113
She also makes it sound as though you should buy a bunch of these kits before there are no more - as they are not making new ones anymore.
My link shows the kit laid out (if they actually still have it). I still think you could make some of the rubber parts from an inner tube tire (or tyre) and cobble the rest of it together from various bits of metal and plastic. It would be best though to use a bona fide service kit to figure out how to fabricate one if/when you have to.
Hopefully the 'Joker valve' is more or less universal.
As always, Peggy's depth and breadth of knowledge on marine heads is evident.

jonagne · Feb 24, 2012

I don't think that's a 'Winner' as I have one on my catboat. I think it's a model or two up the ladder, and as soon as I can find my WC catalog from the 1930's, I'll let you know.

Speaking of 'Winners', what would be the best size holding tank to consider for these heads? My boat came with one of those 3 or 4 gallon tanks and a Y-valve. I've rebuilt the head (still have one repair kit left), and am thinking of installing a better holding tank. I'd like to have a outlet for the pump-out, and a separate outlet for an overboard pump.

I get the impression that these old pumps use more water per use, so I do not want to undersize my tank.

jonagne · Feb 24, 2012

Here is a 'Winner.'

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w6/jonagne/WinnerHead/SurpriseWork043.jpg

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Feb 24, 2012

They're both Winners...the Winner is the only one that had that pump handle design...but yours is either an earlier or later version. I could have have mis-identified his...but I don't think that Jock Allpress--who was with W-C for decades before Thetford bought 'em--would. I suspect his is the later version, 'cuz the Winner pre-dates the Skipper and Imperial and by the time they came along, the pump had been redesigned to, among other things, replace the wet/dry lever at the top of the pump with the completely separate foot pedal operated intake valve on the base that was common to all the W-C bronze "thrones."

what would be the best size holding tank to consider for these heads? I get the impression that these old pumps use more water per use, so I do not want to undersize my tank.

The wet/dry function in both old AND new manual toilets allows the user to control the amount of flush water...if you flail away only in the wet mode, any toilet is gonna use a lot more water than it will if you learn to use the dry mode to do more than just remove the last of the water from the bowl. How to flush to conserve tank space and how to calculate tank size needed has been discussed many times in the HM forum...you might want to spend some time there.

I'd like to have a outlet for the pump-out, and a separate outlet for an overboard pump.

Your best source for a tank is Ronco Plastics Ronco Plastics Marine Catalog They make TOP quality tanks for a very reasonable price and have more than 400 shapes/sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular...and they install fittings in the sizes, locations and quantities specified by the customer when they make the tank.

You might also want to check out the link in my signature...

jonagne · Feb 25, 2012

Thanks Peggie for the prompt reply. I spent some time yesterday on this forum, and the sheer amount of information is somewhat daunting, and very much appreciated. I'll spend some more time searching along your guidelines.

I had almost decided to take out the Winner and install an AirHead when I found out about your forum. I'm also researching the Raritan Electro San for possible installation in place of a holding tank. I'm a little concerned about being able to get the top of the tank lower than the output of the Winner. As you probably know, the vertical space in a catboat is challenging.

Jon

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Feb 25, 2012

If you decide to go with an ElectroScan, there are workarounds that'll let you install it where it needs to go. Send me an email if you want some help with it.

robertsapp · Mar 2, 2012

Peggie Hall-HeadMistress said:
The whole concept has become totally obsolete because our society now puts immediate gratification (quick profit) ahead of quality, reliability and durability...and not only mfrs, but consumers. I can't count the number of people over the years I've run into who've told me they took one of these wonderful machines to the dumpster because they could replace it with a Jabsco for less than the cost of the kit.

ECON101 - Public corporations do not exist to save the world, improve our lives, or create beautiful things. They are economic vehicles for wealth creation. You buy your shares, and you demand your return on investment. Therefore a public corporation that ISN'T putting profit above everything else is failing in its fiduciary obligation to its shareholders, and it's management should be replaced. Beautiful pieces of elegant and durable craftsmanship come from artists, sole proprieterships, partnerships, or privately held corporations where the wants and needs of the owners can come first. Why are there no longer any $5,000 solid bronze bullet proof crappers? Because if you try to sell them, you go bankrupt.

Having said that, Peggie, I am in awe of your knowlege, greatly respect your extensive experience, and value your topical advice. And I bought your book. Thank you for putting up with our crap.

robertsapp · Mar 2, 2012

Daring2 said:
Hi all
Need some help trying to figure out what model head this is, i was told its from the 1930 or so, and on the bronze tube it says type n, i do know the chrome is not orignal as the last owner had this done, the head is in great shape and it would be a shame to throw it out, i was hoping to find a rebuild kit for it, seals and gaskets, i was also told it could be an orignal imperial or junior model but not shure of this, any help would be great as this would look great in one of my boats. thanks to all in advance.

Personally, now that I've had a chance to peruse your pictures, I think this gem is being wasted on your boat. Here's what you should do. Replace it with a modern marine toilet, and then take it to a plumber and work out a way to adapt an elbow trap and wall mounted flush tank with pull chain to it so that it can be conventionally flushed. Then remodel your bathroom at home into a "throne room," with this beauty as the centerpiece. Throw in a claw foot tub and some old style chrome and porcelain fixtures, and you'd probaby get a feature in Home Beautiful.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Mar 2, 2012

Actually there are

Why are there no longer any $5,000 solid bronze bullet proof crappers? Because if you try to sell them, you go bankrupt.

Apparently you've never heard of Blake marine toilets. Google "Baby Blake" and "Blake Victory"...Blake also makes the far more affordable Lavac Lavac Marine Toilets btw.
And don't tell me that no one can afford them...Apparently you haven't seen $8000 Japanese DOMESTIC toilets! Or are aware that the mega-yacht sector of the marine industry is the only part of it in which boats are selling well.

Don't lecture me on economics either...as a 70 year old supported entirely now by interest and dividend income (book royalties and speaking fees only contribute about 1%), I have a vested interest in corporate profit and loss. For more than a century, US companies made high quality, durable, reliable products that were affordable AND profitable. And we had a sound economy based on PRODUCTIVITY that created a thriving and upwardly mobile middle class. Companies were managed by producers who knew how make quality goods AND a profit selling them for a reasonable price. Products "Made in America" were coveted all over the world. Now we no longer make anything here...we accept cheap disposable crap as a norm, MBAs now run the companies who sell it...and our economy is in the toilet, likely to remain there for at least another decade.

So which is REALLY more profitable: an economy that produces quality goods, creates jobs and sustains growth...or what we have now?

robertsapp · Mar 2, 2012

Peggie Hall-HeadMistress said:
US companies made high quality, durable, reliable products that were affordable AND profitable. And we had a sound economy based on PRODUCTIVITY that created a thriving and upwardly mobile middle class.

We're probably in agreement on the benefits of a productivity based economy, where people earned their way through their labor instead of voting for whoever will give them the most entitlements for the least effort. I feel you've made a common economic error though, in your comparison of today with "the good old days." I mean no disrespect, but if you are 70 years old (congratulations, looking good!) then let me ask you this. As a small child, how many cars did your family own? How many televisions? Radios? Cameras? Hell, how many pairs of shoes did you have when you were ten? Yes, we made great stuff in America. And it was all EXPENSIVE AS HELL. Oh, not in actual dollars, because inflation has so badly eroded the value of our currency. That 1934 Chevrolet was probably only $600. But hardly anyone could afford one, much less two. A baby doll and a board game was a big Christmas, and maybe if you were really lucky, a new bike that probably had to last you at least five years. How many middle class families owned a YACHT in 1940? One that would have one of these georgeous finely crafted poop machines onboard? But how about today? The typical family now has several cars, TV's, computers, cell phones, two pairs of shoes for every day of the week, and a huge closet to contain their extensive wardrobe. A reasonably sized sailboat is well within the reach of the middle class. So which is preferable? Wonderfully built pieces of machinery that hardly anyone could afford? Or today's Walmart economy where we all live better and have things that exceed the wildest dream's of the wealthiest person from 100 years ago, but which wear out and need to be replaced? I know how I vote. All brought to you by the publically held corporations' ceaseless emphasis on profit. No, I'm sorry, but today's "cheap crap" is the only reason we aren't still having to huddle around the very well built coal stove to stay warm in the winter like the average American had to in the '30's and '40's.

We should probably move this to the war room if you'd like to continue. Again though, I respect your knowledge and advice on all matters of marine plumbing. I just have a few thoughts about some of your economic views.

Vintage Wilcox Crittenden Head

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