Venture 22: Reinforceing deckplate, hull, chainplate area

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U

UseDaGreyMatter

.
Nov 23, 2010
116
MacGregor Venture 22 OK/TX
There is serious spidering on the out side around chain plates I want to reinforce that entire area. Ive attached photos. hopefully they loaded right if not
I posted photos of the area in question at http://thetoydiybyagirl.blogspot.com/2010/12/deck-plates-and-hulls-and-other-stuff.html
you have to scroll down to the right part.


After I get the area sanded down to fiberglass...... The general idea is make a series of really long patches made of fiberglass cloth and epoxy the proper width, stagger them and epoxy into place to build up this area for strength not only on hull at top but under deck where the hull meets deck to give extra support to the chain plate connections. As you can see in the photo of the inner chain plate there is a gap between it and the hull.
The seal material between the deck plate and hull looks good at least on this section. The bolts look good.
Taking the deck completely off is not an option.
My thought is doing one section at a time;

Have two different ideas on how to deal with existing bolts
Plan A is:
1. take out the existing bolts.
2. do the fiber glass work leaving the original holes on the out side alone so I know where exactly to replace bolts at.
3. drill holes in original spots, put in longer S/S 316 bolts.


Plan B is;
1. one at a time, take out and immediatly replace bolts with longer S/S 316 ones to prevent seal from breaking and deck plate from slipping or shifting. just do not put nuts or washers in place yet

2. make patches but punch holes in them to accommodate longer bolts.
Epoxy punched patches around bolts.

3. install washers/ nuts.

when it is all done replace vinyl covered wood with something.
My son mentioned the idea of using some sort of epoxied and varnished molding to allow for electrical lines to bow area along both sides.
I see no sign of any thing remotely close to a liner.

Thoughts, comments, ideas, help ?
Happy sailing
Barb
 

Attachments

M

MrMikey64

.
Oct 24, 2008
424
Macgregor 25 (1984) Wildomar, So. Cal.
UseDaGreyMatter said:
There is serious spidering on the out side around chain plates I want to reinforce that entire area. Ive attached photos. hopefully they loaded right if not
I posted photos of the area in question at http://thetoydiybyagirl.blogspot.com/2010/12/deck-plates-and-hulls-and-other-stuff.html
you have to scroll down to the right part.


After I get the area sanded down to fiberglass...... The general idea is make a series of really long patches made of fiberglass cloth and epoxy the proper width, stagger them and epoxy into place to build up this area for strength not only on hull at top but under deck where the hull meets deck to give extra support to the chain plate connections. As you can see in the photo of the inner chain plate there is a gap between it and the hull.
The seal material between the deck plate and hull looks good at least on this section. The bolts look good.
Taking the deck completely off is not an option.
My thought is doing one section at a time;

Have two different ideas on how to deal with existing bolts
Plan A is:
1. take out the existing bolts.
2. do the fiber glass work leaving the original holes on the out side alone so I know where exactly to replace bolts at.
3. drill holes in original spots, put in longer S/S 316 bolts.


Plan B is;
1. one at a time, take out and immediatly replace bolts with longer S/S 316 ones to prevent seal from breaking and deck plate from slipping or shifting. just do not put nuts or washers in place yet

2. make patches but punch holes in them to accommodate longer bolts.
Epoxy punched patches around bolts.

3. install washers/ nuts.

when it is all done replace vinyl covered wood with something.
My son mentioned the idea of using some sort of epoxied and varnished molding to allow for electrical lines to bow area along both sides.
I see no sign of any thing remotely close to a liner.

Thoughts, comments, ideas, help ?
Happy sailing
Barb
Click to expand
Wow - it looks like you've taken on quite a project!:eek:

As for the liner issue, you most likely do not have one. I did not notice mention of the year of your vessel, but since you say Venture, I believe you're talking pre-1980s, which is when I believe they started installing liners.

The idea of installing moulding where the deck seam is to conceal wiring sounds like a neat idea. In other models I've seen, there is a strip of wood covering where the deck meets the hull.

From what you're describing, it sounds like the easiest (and most direct) way to do this job is to remove the hardware, glass the inside to build it up (if you desire), then drill through the patch where necessary and reinstall the hardware, rebedding in new sealant. In the area of the chainplate, if you're skillful enough you can create a backing plate for where it goes through the deck - or use some fender washers along with the nut-bolt combination.

As for the exterior (didn't see pics of spidering), you might be able to resolve this with the use of epoxy putty and refinishing.

Looking at the pics, it looks like you've got some fiberglass work to do anyway. Plus, you might want to consider rebedding most of the hardware on deck, as it has probably been a number of years since it has been done last.

The idea of working around the chainplate hull attachment seems a bit excessive to me, unless removal of the chainplate would cause damage to the hull itself.

You might want to consider picking up the book "Fix It and Sail" by Brian Gilbert. It documents his restoration of a 1972 Venture 222. Many good tips and advice.

Just my thoughts on the matter.:D

PS - You mention in your blog areas of "vinyl covered wood" and "carpeting". Perhaps someone with a Venture can comment as to whether these are original or mods made by the prior owner. I suspect they are mods.
 
Freedom77

Freedom77

.
Jul 29, 2010
1,392
Macgregor 76 V-25 #928 Lake Mead, Nevada
Re: Venture 22: Reinforceing deckplate, hull, chainplate are

I think you have the right idea. Only thing I would ad as a suggestion is to put an extra backing plate, aluminum works fine, on all thru hull fittings. This will help with the checking and cracking. I backed up all stanchions, winches, cleats, etc. this way. Fair Wnds and Full Sails...
 
U

UseDaGreyMatter

.
Nov 23, 2010
116
MacGregor Venture 22 OK/TX
MrMikey64 said:
Wow - it looks like you've taken on quite a project!:eek:

As for the liner issue, you most likely do not have one. I did not notice mention of the year of your vessel, but since you say Venture, I believe you're talking pre-1980s, which is when I believe they started installing liners.

The idea of installing moulding where the deck seam is to conceal wiring sounds like a neat idea. In other models I've seen, there is a strip of wood covering where the deck meets the hull.

From what you're describing, it sounds like the easiest (and most direct) way to do this job is to remove the hardware, glass the inside to build it up (if you desire), then drill through the patch where necessary and reinstall the hardware, rebedding in new sealant. In the area of the chainplate, if you're skillful enough you can create a backing plate for where it goes through the deck - or use some fender washers along with the nut-bolt combination.

As for the exterior (didn't see pics of spidering), you might be able to resolve this with the use of epoxy putty and refinishing.

Looking at the pics, it looks like you've got some fiberglass work to do anyway. Plus, you might want to consider rebedding most of the hardware on deck, as it has probably been a number of years since it has been done last.

The idea of working around the chainplate hull attachment seems a bit excessive to me, unless removal of the chainplate would cause damage to the hull itself.

You might want to consider picking up the book "Fix It and Sail" by Brian Gilbert. It documents his restoration of a 1972 Venture 222. Many good tips and advice.

Just my thoughts on the matter.:D

PS - You mention in your blog areas of "vinyl covered wood" and "carpeting". Perhaps someone with a Venture can comment as to whether these are original or mods made by the prior owner. I suspect they are mods.
Click to expand
thanks for the heads up on teh book, sounds like jsut exactly waht Im loking for,. yes its a 1971 , and yes on the re bedding. I keep forgetting to mention that for some silly reason.

Smooth seas
 
U

UseDaGreyMatter

.
Nov 23, 2010
116
MacGregor Venture 22 OK/TX
Thanks

Freedom77 said:
I think you have the right idea. Only thing I would ad as a suggestion is to put an extra backing plate, aluminum works fine, on all thru hull fittings. This will help with the checking and cracking. I backed up all stanchions, winches, cleats, etc. this way. Fair Wnds and Full Sails...
Click to expand
backing plates. got it. thanks

fair winds
 
MrBill_FLL

MrBill_FLL

.
May 4, 2005
4,062
Macgregor 26d Ft Lauderdale, Fl
Re: Venture 22: Reinforceing deckplate, hull, chainplate are

I'd probably use polyester resin, sand surface then wipe down with acetone or mek, put down some mat, then biaxal cloth, then some more mat. with the mat a few inches larger than the biaxil cloth. let it harden and redrill.

Epoxy sticks better to polyester reisin, but the poly resin will stick to itself for a 2nd and 3rd coat better than epoxy to itself.
-ymmv.


http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...Fiberglass+Biaxial+Cloth+Tape+-+4+inches+Wide
 
U

UseDaGreyMatter

.
Nov 23, 2010
116
MacGregor Venture 22 OK/TX
The good news???????

http://thetoydiybyagirl.blogspot.com/2010/12/today-is-about-chain-plates.html


If you look at the chain plate pics ( scroll down) you can see there is not a lot of room on the exterior side of the down plate/ shaft. As I sit here starring at the pics, the only reasonable idea that comes to my newbie mind is thicken the deck plate under neath, put the shaft part of chain plate through that and then since the deck plate wil be wider put a backing plate on AND increase the size of the top plate, length and width. Comments? Thoughts? am I on the right track?
 
U

UseDaGreyMatter

.
Nov 23, 2010
116
MacGregor Venture 22 OK/TX
No Doubt

Freedom77 said:
I think you have the right idea. Only thing I would ad as a suggestion is to put an extra backing plate, aluminum works fine, on all thru hull fittings. This will help with the checking and cracking. I backed up all stanchions, winches, cleats, etc. this way. Fair Winds and Full Sails...
Click to expand
NO Doubt about that one. Am wondering. what thickness do I want to use?
 
U

UseDaGreyMatter

.
Nov 23, 2010
116
MacGregor Venture 22 OK/TX
Mods

MrMikey64 said:
PS - You mention in your blog areas of "vinyl covered wood" and "carpeting". Perhaps someone with a Venture can comment as to whether these are original or mods made by the prior owner. I suspect they are mods.
Click to expand
As for the carpet and vinyl covered wood, they are getting GONE!!
The dirt daubers had multiple condominiums under the wood and carpet in a boat that small just don't make sense to me. It just holds water which is not something I want to put up with.
 
M

MrMikey64

.
Oct 24, 2008
424
Macgregor 25 (1984) Wildomar, So. Cal.
Re: Venture 22: Reinforceing deckplate, hull, chainplate are

A lot of questions. And quite a comprehensive blog you've got going there!
Maybe I can answer a few:

* Looking at the chain plates, I get the impression that the function of the part you are worried about is to act as a seal for the vertical, while allowing for a tiny bit of play. The full load of the shrouds is on the vertical piece and its connection to the hull. That being said, I don't think you need to make the topside piece any bigger. I would repair the spidering that has occured, thicken the underside if you feel it's necessary, and reuse the topside piece, placing some fender washers or a piece of aluminum (slightly larger than the outside piece) on the underside (to help spread the stress of any load that might be there).

*Some aluminum for backing is a good idea on all thru-hull fixtures. Once again it spreads the stress of the fastening points over a larger area. I would think something in the range of 1/16" of an inch or so maximum should be sufficient.

* Carpet and vinyl? Get rid of it! You might want to keep some of the pieces for templates, if you need to replace a piece of a particular shape. Think of your boat as a blank canvas, and have some fun with it!

* Sealant: for thru-hull fixtures, the one I've heard mentioned most is 3M 4200. There is also 5200 out there, but you only want to use that in areas where you want the seal to be permanent (as it is very difficult to remove). A good place to use 5200 would be the joint between the deck and the hull.
 
Phyrexii

Phyrexii

.
Sep 4, 2010
115
MacGregor Venture 25 Ocean Grove, Swansea MA
Freedom77 said:
I think you have the right idea. Only thing I would ad as a suggestion is to put an extra backing plate, aluminum works fine, on all thru hull fittings.
Click to expand
Be careful using aluminum, especially if you are using stainless fasteners - you will get a galvanic reaction between the two, especially if it gets exposed to salt water.This summer, I made all aluminum plates for my '76 V25. About a week after I installed them, a fellow I work with (an experienced sailor), pointed out the possibility of a reaction, which was confirmed by a quick internet search on the subject. Now I'm in the process of making all new backing plates out of stainless :doh:.
 
Timo42

Timo42

.
Mar 26, 2007
1,042
Venture 22 Marina del Rey
Re: Venture 22: Reinforceing deckplate, hull, chainplate are

As someone else mentioned, the plates in the deck are only covers, with no structural function, No point in reinforcing that area. You definitely want to remove the chainplates as well as the covers and rebed, replace the chainplate bolts as well, SS allen head button head capscrews work better than flathead screws, either the butyl tape or 4200 works for bedding, I used 4200. The spidering around the covers is probably from either bouncing off stuff or people hanging on the shrouds, most likely cosmetic and not structural. Aluminum and ss dont like each other, so use something like Tef Gel between the two. Personally I would ditch those winches, they are a pita. Lewmar 6's work well on mine , you can get spare parts and handles anywhere, but wait till you have sailed it a bit, you may not use them, depending on conditions and your upper body strength. Don't spend too much time on cosmetics at first, get out sailing and get everything working right.
 
U

UseDaGreyMatter

.
Nov 23, 2010
116
MacGregor Venture 22 OK/TX
MrMikey64 said:
A lot of questions. And quite a comprehensive blog you've got going there!
Maybe I can answer a few:

* Looking at the chain plates, I get the impression that the function of the part you are worried about is to act as a seal for the vertical, while allowing for a tiny bit of play. The full load of the shrouds is on the vertical piece and its connection to the hull. That being said, I don't think you need to make the topside piece any bigger. I would repair the spidering that has occured, thicken the underside if you feel it's necessary, and reuse the topside piece, placing some fender washers or a piece of aluminum (slightly larger than the outside piece) on the underside (to help spread the stress of any load that might be there).
Click to expand
My big concern is why does the port side have a really bad crack yet the starboard side does not. I'm thinking when the previous repair was done they did not bother to fill in the holes and put the screws in the same place. I'm thinking that caused undue pressure to make the crack under the port chain plate. I could be dead wrong. I just want to make sure once I get this fixed it is a non issue. Once is enough!
Fitting an under plate that close to the hull wall is going to be a challenge!


MrMikey64 said:
*Some aluminum for backing is a good idea on all thru-hull fixtures. Once again it spreads the stress of the fastening points over a larger area. I would think something in the range of 1/16" of an inch or so maximum should be sufficient.
Click to expand
I'll take the 1/16" but think I'll go with the SS 316 ( sailing kitty is really groaning on that but hey is cheaper in the long run)


MrMikey64 said:
* Carpet and vinyl? Get rid of it! You might want to keep some of the pieces for templates, if you need to replace a piece of a particular shape. Think of your boat as a blank canvas, and have some fun with it!
Click to expand
not even keeping them for template. the only piece of carpet left is in starboard aft under cockpit and the only reason it is there is I forgot about it.


MrMikey64 said:
* Sealant: for thru-hull fixtures, the one I've heard mentioned most is 3M 4200. There is also 5200 out there, but you only want to use that in areas where you want the seal to be permanent (as it is very difficult to remove). A good place to use 5200 would be the joint between the deck and the hull.
Click to expand
not doing 5200 for anything but permanent repairs additions. I read the forums on that and its to darned much work if I change my mind. LOL

Using 5200 for the deck hull joint is an idea I had not thought of. It sure beats my idea of maybe fiber glassing the two together. Permanent there is a good thing IMHO.


:dance:
 
M

MrMikey64

.
Oct 24, 2008
424
Macgregor 25 (1984) Wildomar, So. Cal.
UseDaGreyMatter said:
My big concern is why does the port side have a really bad crack yet the starboard side does not. :dance:
Click to expand
With the spridering and the indentation in that area on the rubrail, I might suspect a collision with something (perhaps it hit a concrete pylon while at dock, with no fenders present?).

Just something to consider
 
U

UseDaGreyMatter

.
Nov 23, 2010
116
MacGregor Venture 22 OK/TX
Could be

MrMikey64 said:
With the spridering and the indentation in that area on the rubrail, I might suspect a collision with something (perhaps it hit a concrete pylon while at dock, with no fenders present?).

Just something to consider
Click to expand
You know after thinking about that idea, you could very well be right on target. I'm certainly not an expert and We can only speculate of course but, if that is what happened, How in the heck they would miss hitting the deck unless the dock was really low? Regardless Im just glad the deck is ok. Shes in pretty good condition other then that. It looks like she even has all of her blocks or very close to it. :dance:
Waiting for warmer weather so I can go outside and play in my toy..LOL
 
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