varnish problems

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Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
I've been using Flagship varnish on my exterior teak since 2008. Applied several coats with no problem, great results. Applied in hot summer sun with no problem.

Until last year. It was hot & humid when the varnish 'orange peeled'. I thought it was the heat. Later in cooler weather I had the same problem. I thought it might be the can of varnish. I just put on a fresh coat with a new can, kept it shaded all day, temps in the 70s, no dew overnight. Today it has orange peel. This is on a fresh surface area, not where I've had this problem before.
What is going on? Flagship is a premium varnish and I put on several coats in 2009 & 2010 with zero issues using the same techniques. Sand with 220 to get good tooth, wipe sand dust with damp towel then clean with mineral spirits and let that dry completely. Worked great before...
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,182
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Varnish

New formula? Mine goes on lousy and wears only a third as well. Got some from out of California. But, I suspect they are all getting the low VOC treatment.
 
Mar 1, 2012
2,182
1961 Rhodes Meridian 25 Texas coast
Good question. I just redid some hand rails for someone, and one side orange peeled, the other did fine. Done with same prep, same day, within minutes of each other.

Only thing I can figure is that the one side was laid on too thickly, and didn't give the solvents enough time to evaporate before the surface set. I don't know. 2015 has been my preferred varnish for years for exterior brightwork. 1015 does very well on interiors.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Youre probably not correctly matching the 'proper' amount of thinner / varnish reducer to the varnish and to match the days temperature/humidity conditions.
Do websearch for: "Don Casey" + painting + "glass plate" ............ OR "Don Casey" + "glass plate"

A brief summary of the 'glass plate method' of correct thinner proportions is found here: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/rolling-tipping.asp
Hold the glass plate vertical and/or also horizontal (depending on surface orientation to be varnished) when 'testing' the thinner/reducer – varnish mixture for proper 'flow out' after brushing on.

If you get the thinner to varnish ratio 'perfect', the result should look like a prime 'sprayed on' job found on mega-yachts or private aircraft. Once fully cured and well hardened, you can flat-sand (800-1000 grit) followed by light-pressure power buffing with 3M Finese-IT and 3M Perfect-it once fully cured ..... for an absolute PERFECTION mirror-quality finish.
 
Mar 1, 2012
2,182
1961 Rhodes Meridian 25 Texas coast
Youre probably not correctly matching the 'proper' amount of thinner / varnish reducer to the varnish and to match the days temperature/humidity conditions.
Do websearch for: "Don Casey" + painting + "glass plate" ............ OR "Don Casey" + "glass plate"

A brief summary of the 'glass plate method' of correct thinner proportions is found here: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/rolling-tipping.asp
Hold the glass plate vertical and/or also horizontal (depending on surface orientation to be varnished) when 'testing' the thinner/reducer – varnish mixture for proper 'flow out' after brushing on.

If you get the thinner to varnish ratio 'perfect', the result should look like a prime 'sprayed on' job found on mega-yachts or private aircraft. Once fully cured and well hardened, you can flat-sand (800-1000 grit) followed by light-pressure power buffing with 3M Finese-IT and 3M Perfect-it once fully cured ..... for an absolute PERFECTION mirror-quality finish.
Right- IF all the stars align. After 30 years as a furniture refinisher, then 12 years working on boats, I can tell you it doesn't always work right. Some time stuff just goes to hell.

I don't always agree with Casey, but that's a good starting place, for sure.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Hey guys, Can I chime in with something?

You will never see me sand and then polish the final varnish coat on a boat that is going to be outside all of the time. Common thought on the subject in the vintage wooden boat community is that your UV filters migrate to the surface skin as the varnish dries. If you go sanding and polishing, you are taking your UV protection up in a cloud of dust.

For any of my wood boats, (down from 7 to 2 at the moment) the last coat of varnish is left nude, natural, and in its as-brushed state with no secondary finishing work to flatten it.

I don't trot my position out as fact, but rather as an educated opinion of a larger group whose very expensive hobby is the use, preservation, and care of the old woodies. I have yet to find someone who could provide conclusive evidence to the contrary though. We all see the mirror-gloss-smooth sanded and polished show winner boats at the wooden boat get-togethers, but know that many of those boats rarely see the light of the day, except when at those shows.

I am not sharing to be a contrarian, as the sanded and polished finish is absolutely beautiful! I just point ot the UV thing in hopes it helps someone out with less work and brightwork maintenance. I love beautiful varnish but I really want to do it as rarely as possible... :D
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
I've been using Flagship varnish on my exterior teak since 2008. Applied several coats with no problem, great results. Applied in hot summer sun with no problem.

Until last year. It was hot & humid when the varnish 'orange peeled'. I thought it was the heat. Later in cooler weather I had the same problem. I thought it might be the can of varnish. I just put on a fresh coat with a new can, kept it shaded all day, temps in the 70s, no dew overnight. Today it has orange peel. This is on a fresh surface area, not where I've had this problem before.
What is going on? Flagship is a premium varnish and I put on several coats in 2009 & 2010 with zero issues using the same techniques. Sand with 220 to get good tooth, wipe sand dust with damp towel then clean with mineral spirits and let that dry completely. Worked great before...
Is there any chance of silicon contamination? Is this a place where a suntan oil or sunscreen wearer might have lounged? What about neighboring boats using whizz-band aerospace maintenace products instead of soap, water, and elbow grease? Overspray from anything? Sail track lube?

It sure seems you would be fine to go with your prep regimen, but you might up your game a little and move to Acetone and give the wood a vigorous scrubbing just prior to applying a first coat. I often discourage a heavily thinned first coat due to the tenaceous absorbtion you usually get with an acetone scrub, but you might go ahead and consider mixing up a heavily thinned first coat that will with any luck drill deep and penetrate, AND at the same time seal whatever contaminants might be remaining.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
I would doubt very much from a 'chemistry' point of view that the UV agents (typically micronized and nano-sized ferrous oxide particles) would migrate from a gelled substrate 'up' and into a freshly applied layer of varnish thus diluting the 'begun to harden' and partly 'dried' layer.
Flagship is an oil based varnish and thus is 'botanic' based and therefore not so easily controlled as to lot to lot consistency due the variability of grown agricultural/botanic components in such a mixture as an oil based varnish such as 'Flagship'. Such variability could indeed be the cause of any particular problem, but really not a migration of inorganic micronized ferrous oxide. the ferrous only to provide UV protection of the surface wood cells.

Another consideration, if not a thinner/mixture issue (viscosity), and if using 'oil based' varnishes is the variability of absorbtion into the surface of the wood ... and the reason that 'the ancients' always used a 'ground coat' or sealer when applying varnish to supreme quality musical instruments and supreme quality woodwork to totally control the absorption rates so to get dead flat upper surfaces ( aka: orange peel, which could be a relative absorption problem .... or a lay down that is simply applied 'too thick', a common application error with 'varnish' that greatly prolongs the 'dry' time).
So too, the modern EPA constraints which limit VOCs, etc. are probably a contributory factor ... and the probable reason for many 'fine' and 'museum grade' finishers to now make their own varnishes. My dad, as a very profitable hobby, did such 'ultra' and museum-grade finish work and usually made up his own varnish and 'ground coats' simply to maintain uniformity and consistency.
Silicone contamination will usually shows up as 'birds eyes', not orange peel.

Heres a pic of ferrous oxide loaded totally synthetic 'varnish', actually a catalyzed urethane/acrylic, a modern co-polymer 'varnish' (Honey Teak) that has been heavily flat sanded and heavily polished (and hand rubbed - w/ rottenstone) that is over 12 years old (just an occasional maintenance 'top coat' with clear) using essentially the very same UV filters as now found in 'outdoor' oil and urethane based 'varnish' .... but all the UV filters are in the initial 'base coats' and has many 'clear' coats over that.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
I would doubt very much from a 'chemistry' point of view that the UV agents (typically micronized and nano-sized ferrous oxide particles) would migrate from a gelled substrate 'up' and into a freshly applied layer of varnish thus diluting the 'begun to harden' and partly 'dried' layer.
Flagship is an oil based varnish and thus is 'botanic' based and therefore not so easily controlled as to lot to lot consistency due the variability of grown agricultural/botanic components in such a mixture as an oil based varnish such as 'Flagship'. Such variability could indeed be the cause of any particular problem, but really not a migration of inorganic micronized ferrous oxide. the ferrous only to provide UV protection of the surface wood cells.

Another consideration, if not a thinner/mixture issue (viscosity), and if using 'oil based' varnishes is the variability of absorbtion into the surface of the wood ... and the reason that 'the ancients' always used a 'ground coat' or sealer when applying varnish to supreme quality musical instruments and supreme quality woodwork to totally control the absorption rates so to get dead flat upper surfaces ( aka: orange peel, which could be a relative absorption problem .... or a lay down that is simply applied 'too thick', a common application error with 'varnish' that greatly prolongs the 'dry' time).
So too, the modern EPA constraints which limit VOCs, etc. are probably a contributory factor ... and the probable reason for many 'fine' and 'museum grade' finishers to now make their own varnishes. My dad, as a very profitable hobby, did such 'ultra' and museum-grade finish work and usually made up his own varnish and 'ground coats' simply to maintain uniformity and consistency.
Silicone contamination will usually shows up as 'birds eyes', not orange peel.

Heres a pic of ferrous oxide loaded totally synthetic 'varnish', actually a catalyzed urethane/acrylic, a modern co-polymer 'varnish' (Honey Teak) that has been heavily flat sanded and heavily polished (and hand rubbed - w/ rottenstone) that is over 12 years old (just an occasional maintenance 'top coat' with clear) using essentially the very same UV filters as now found in 'outdoor' oil and urethane based 'varnish' .... but all the UV filters are in the initial 'base coats' and has many 'clear' coats over that.
I have zero thought that the lower UV stabilizers of, oh 14-20 layers of varnish somehow move from cured layers upward to wet. I do not intend to convey that. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

I do have total belief that within the wet layer such migration takes place.... Now follow...


In a high-coat high-build finish, (up to and beyond 20 coats) we sand everything off but the low spots. We are grain filling. If the hypotheses I propose is factual, and the recommended sanding between some random number of coats as recommended by the manufacturer is followed, the only place these UV inhibitors will remain is down in the grain or in the low spots of the finish.

Following this logic, the folks who religiously sand between every coat have the least UV protection, (or the crumminess-looking filler stain layer on the planet). For those like myself who sand after every 4, the odds are better, except for the fact that 4-varnishes are heavy sanders. Bottom-line, and again if hypotheses hold true, even though you are applying UV varnish, your sanding is reducing its UV stability to that of straight epoxy, (zero over much of your varnished surface).

So....

Tying your post to mine, I say first I agree completely. Little microscopic rust flakes don't move from dried varnish to wet. They live in the wet layer, only to float to the surface to be rubbed away.

Then I counter that your cited example would require less work if it were built, flattened, polished, then very lightly abraded and finally coated with a UV varnish. THEN left as-is.

It is this exact process I speak of. Varnish/sand/repeat as many times as necessary to achieve your desired flat finish. For some it is 3 coats. For others it is epoxy followed by 30 coats. Sand a last time, lay a coat on, and then don't touch it with anything harsher than water and a terry cloth towel until the next time, (my experience is 3-8 years) you decide to varnish.

It is this finish protocol that allows a uniform layer of a final topcoat to cover and seal every prior coat that has been applied, without regard to how those prior coats were removed. If 15 coats gets you a block-flat sanding base with no low spots, coat 16 will go on and lay down flat as if applied to sheet glass. And as such you can leave it completely alone, with all chemical protection intact.

Bottom - line: my advice is this. If you want to minimize your maintenance coats, don't sand the final varnish coat on top. Leave your sunscreen on!
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
As a fanatic I disagree ;-)
UV damage occurs not so much in the varnish or any other coating but does damage to the surface cells of the wood. Sanding off any layer that contains UV protectant/filter is counter productive until a high build is obtained that gives structural stability to the coating ... not to exceed thickness specs. as to where cracking and alligatoring predominate. Thus flat sanding ONLY the top most layers to arrive at a final flatness for application of the final coat.

The 'final' Flatness is important in UV translucent/transparent coatings as surface irregularities become 'lenses' which can enhance/magnify UV into the lower substrate and onto the wood cells.

There is a very distinct difference between simple varnishing and 'finishing'. Finishing is the development of an ultra flat defect free surface that is polished/burnished into either brilliant gloss (polishes, or hand rubbing agents) or semi-gloss (hand-rub agents or fine pumice, etc.) or 'satin' (pumice or fine steel wool, etc.).
The heat generated from 'finishing' (either by power buffing or hand rubbing) is what develops the dazzling glowing iridescent 'patina' of the surface wood cells.

Filling of open cell wood pores when using an oil based varnish is best done with the application of 'ground coat' - special mixtures of PROPOLIS SOAP ... a resin soap made from beehive 'scrapings' ... or an acrylic seal coat. The ground coat is first applied to the bare wood before varnishing. The seal coat or 'ground coat' on most varnish applications is the hand-rubbed coat that fills and levels all minor wood imperfection and also that prevents water vapor permeation through the varnish into the wood. Used on almost all high quality musical instruments prior to varnish for good reason, no one has continually remove varnish to get to a flat coating.

Unless youre working in a class 10000 clean room you will have surface defects, even when spraying ... and this applies to varnish as well as automotive finishes .... and thats why all the 'high quality' work is 'finished': polished or hand-rubbed to absolute flatness and defect free finishes. Same with varnish, car paint, lacquer, or a 'french finished' shellac ... most coatings, for 'dazzling gloss' and defect free surfaces should be 'finished', it burnishes the surface porosity to be 'closed'.


Here's an example of 'finished' acrylic/urethane coating system:
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Just goes to show there are multiple very good opinions on the subject! :)

FYI, I very much know filler stains and using them to get a flat surface. Many will skip that step.

Propolis? First I have heard that word in 20 years. We had bees as a kid, at one time dad was managing 100+ hives. That stuff became part of your clothes after a while! Tenacious! Never knew it had a use in wood finish. Neat to know.

Thanks for the dialogue Rich! I tried to include a pic or two of my runabout but they are not in my phone. Here is a shot instead of interior brightwork from my C27. This is a shot before final coat and also pre-rotten stone. High gloss is garish on interior pieces... :D
 

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RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
High gloss is garish on interior pieces... :D
Thats why God invented rotten-stone and oil or pumice and oil, and shoulder bursitis! .... and then named it 'satin'.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Thats why God invented rotten-stone and oil or pumice and oil, and shoulder bursitis! .... and then named it 'satin'.
First time I used rotten stone I figured that was its name since the process was so rotten...

I digress we are getting off topic. To the OP, Sorry! I still say an acetone scrub prior to first coat should help, if not cure. Subsequent coats should flatten
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
beautiful varnish.
varnishing takes a lot of sailing time away....i oil after cleansing teak with sea water for a finish that repels tropical downpours for the season and leave it alone the rest of the time, as teak is still nourished well from the oil every june...just before first pouring of rain i make oily finish on my more than 110 feet of teak. takes me 6 hours and i am good for rainy season. this year i expect 100 inches of the stuff..mebbe i will use 2 coats.....
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Odorless Mineral Spirits

It has been suggested to me that the odorless mineral spirits I wiped the teak with just prior to applying the varnish may be the culprit. I let it flash off for at least 10 minutes before varnish.

Is it possible the mineral spirits are leaving a bit of residue behind?
 
Mar 1, 2012
2,182
1961 Rhodes Meridian 25 Texas coast
Flagship (2015) reduces with Mineral Spirits quite nicely, so I'd say no.

I still suspect the coat of varnish was applied too heavily and orange peeled while the solvents evaporated.
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
I'm back...


Perhaps humidity? How sensitive is Flagship to high humidity?

All successful applications were in Michigan in summer.
Failures were in Chesapeake in June, Long Island in August and Bahamas in March
 
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