VacuFlush options?

[FourPoints]

Peggy - I currently have a SaniPottie that I really would like to replace with something more pleasant to use for both myself and guests when we go out for day or weekend trips. At the 2010 NY boat show I saw a really appealing all in one, and very affordable unit http://www.northeastsanitation.com/...duct_Code=326002521&Category_Code=Vacuum_Tank It was immediately added to my future project list, but I just checked and found out that it is now discontinued.

page 12: http://www.sealandsanitation.com/VacuFlush Product Guide.pdf

I really liked the design because I don't have much space, and this was small enough to fit my available space, and since it is very efficient per flush (0.4L water + waste), should reasonably be able to handle a long weekend of use, plus they claimed there is no reason you cannot flush a normal amount of paper waste, so no special instructions for guests needed. I also really liked the vacuum flush design since it doesn't require pumping, and with negative pressure, odors should be a non-issue. Additional feature was that if required, you could remove the tank and dump like a portapotty, but I don't expect I'll be doing that...

Are there any similar products out there that I could look at that would perform similarly? I can still get the other unit from some suppliers, but I don't know if I want to buy one that is discontinued and find out I can't get parts anymore...

The distributor suggested the VHT12 (http://www.dometic.com/enus/America...stem-Components/products/?productdataid=96456) but just the tank alone costs 25% more than the complete system with the toilet would have cost for the other unit.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Not a good choice...

The VacuFlush system isn't just a toilet...the bowl is only one component. You'd have to find room for the vacuum generator AND the holding tank...all of which will add up to a LOT more than most other toilets and eat up at least half the storage space on a 27' sailboat. Plus, I would estimate that at least 50% of the "potty problems" posts on trawler and powerboat sites (boats have bilges deep enough and big enough for the system) are VacuFlush owners.

If you really want to "upgrade" to the push-button convenience of an electric toilet designed to use pressurized fresh water, there are much better more affordable choice than a VacuFlush (btw...I was a dealer for nearly 10 years and had V/Flush on my last two boats, so I do know 'em VERY well!).

IMO, the best choice for a 27' sailboat would be the fresh water version of the Raritan SeaEra Raritan Sea Era ...only $469 for it with the larger household size bowl (less for it with the smaller bowl) at Defender http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|51|806|315136|828741&id=336232 You can add an optional 3 way switch that can just bring in flush water, just flush, or do both. And the whole thing fits in the head...no components scattered all over the boat.

I think you'd love it!

 

[NotCook]

The VacuFlush system isn't just a toilet...the bowl is only one component. You'd have to find room for the vacuum generator AND the holding tank...all of which will add up to a LOT more than most other toilets and eat up at least half the storage space on a 27' sailboat.

You mean the Raritan SeaEra doesn't need a holding tank? Awesome!

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Where did you get that idea??

But the VacuFlush is a 3 component system: the bowl, the vacuum tank and the vacuum pump. The vacuum tank and vacuum are sold as separate components or bundled into something called a "vacuum generator."

All that is in addition to any holding tank and/or Type I treatment device...one or the other is needed no matter which toilet is installed.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Where did you get that idea??

But the VacuFlush is a 3 component system: the bowl, the vacuum tank and the vacuum pump. The vacuum tank and vacuum are sold as separate components or bundled into something called a "vacuum generator."

All that is in addition to any holding tank and/or Type I treatment device...one or the other is needed no matter which toilet is installed.

However, you COULD get away without a holding tank in your waters--LEGALLY except in Herring Bay. It's the only NDZ on the Bay. The discharge of treated waste from a USCG Type I or II MSD (treatment device) is legal everywhere else in the Chesapeake Bay.

 

[FourPoints]

But the VacuFlush is a 3 component system: the bowl, the vacuum tank and the vacuum pump. The vacuum tank and vacuum are sold as separate components or bundled into something called a "vacuum generator."

Check the links I posted... the system I was looking at is a 2 component system where the holding tank and vacuum pump system are integrated into a single unit, that just needs the approritate vacuflush head on the other end.

The unit I wanted to get is self contained and fits in a 11"x12"x21" space, that includes the (small) holding tank, and the vacuum pump and everything involved. All you need to do is run the hoses and power it (which only draws 1.5amps when running too). Not counting the waste, it will hold nearly 30 flushes of water, so I'm going to cut that in half and say it would hold about 10-15 healthy adult size flushes, more than enough for the trips that I normally go on, pumpout boats are plentiful around here so for the long trips calling the pumpout every few days isn't a problem

My concern is that this is discontinued (I guess they didn't sell well due to small holding tank size?), and I don't want to get stuck being unable to get parts if something breaks... I really like the idea of an all in one unit that easily the space I have available.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Welll...consider this...

The basic SeaLand VacuFlush system has been on the market since 1978 and is still being sold today. If the VHT you're asking about were any good, would they have discontinued it?

the system I was looking at is a 2 component system where the holding tank and vacuum pump system are integrated into a single unit, that just needs the approritate vacuflush head on the other end.

It know...and it was a horrible system--single tank that doubles as both a vacuum tank and holding tank...which means that all the air has to be sucked out of the holding tank for it to work as a vacuum tank. No air = anaerobic environment. Anaerobic environment = horrendous odor out the vent every time the toilet is flushed. SeaLand's answer to that: a vent line filter that costs about $70, only lasts a year...that is, IF it doesn't get wet, in which case it's toast immediately.

You've already noted that just the that part of the system has a price tag that's 25% higher than a basic V/Flush...add the toilet bowl assembly...$70/year for a vent line filter. Don't forget that you'd STILL Have to find room for that tank somewhere...and I know from experience that you do NOT want it under your berth!

An electric macerating toilet (e.g. the SeaEra) and a holding tank is also just a 2 component system...one that's a lot less complex and also costs a LOT less money!

But...it's your boat, your money...not mine.

 

[FourPoints]

I just looked through the info on the SeaEra, I am hoping to stay away from any macerating pumps as they A) draw a ton of power, and B) have a reputation for very unpleasant repairs when they fail.

Do you know of anything that compares to the system I was originally looking at? I don't know if I have room for a larger tank to accomidate something like the SeaEra that uses significantly more water per flush (I think I remember about half a gallon per flush is the base calculation for a normal head), so I would end up with half the flush capacity of the vacuflush system, and more to potentially break (aka macerator pump)....

 

[Steve Dion]

I doubt that there is much if any difference in the amount of water intake between the SeaEra toilet and a manual tolet. Anything in our SeaEra is almost instantly flush away be the macerator.

As far as power consumption it is extremly small considering you only push the button for a few seconds. Even if their is a large amount of paper in the toilet with waste a 10 second blast would be a long time.

When we leave for the weekend, we usually do a longer flush to try to completely evacuate the line of anything other than water. Our SeaEra has been operating flawless for coming up on 5 years (Thank You Peggie).

While I would have preferred the fresh water flush model because of the noise, I would recommend this toilet to anyone.

One of the biggest advantages is the ease of replacing the pump (if needed) and that it will not flush anything that it cannot grind

 

[Jim Seamans]

Same here with the SeaEra toilet plus the LectraSan. Going on about 7 years and just rebuilt the pump in the toilet and have only changed the joker valve two or three times. Memory is failing with age...nothing like a good wine.

My holding tank has been empty all this time.... Electrical load is not a problem, the amount of amps you are using is less than everything else you have. That is depending what you have on the boat...

Hi Peggie...

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

You're in major need of some "mythbusting!"

I am hoping to stay away from any macerating pumps as they A) draw a ton of power...

That was true of the early ones, but today's macerating electric toilets designed to use onboard pressurized flush water only draw 10 amps/flush. Most of today's sea water macerating toilets only draw about 15.

and B) have a reputation for very unpleasant repairs when they fail.

Failure rates are VERY low, 99.999% caused by trying to flush something that shouldn't go into ANY marine toilet, even a VacuFlush. The SeaEra has been on the market for 10 years...I've never been asked to trouble-shoot one...they just don't fail.

They're also very quiet, btw.

I don't know if I have room for a larger tank to accomidate something like the SeaEra that uses significantly more water per flush (I think I remember about half a gallon per flush is the base calculation for a normal head)...

Which is actually about what a Vacuflush REALLY needs. SeaLand's claim that it can use "as little as" 1 pint of flush water is VERY carefully worded. If only urine is flushed...no water added to the bowl first, no TP either...then yes, you CAN get away with that little, at least for a few flushes. But if you do much of that, unless you want odor, at least once a day you need to run at least half a bowl of clean water through it to rinse out the system. It's also advisable to add at least half a bowl of water ahead of solids or any TP (iow, every time a female uses the toilet)...that's a quart or more. It's also essential to leave the pedal down for at least 7-10 seconds after the bowl is empty to rinse out the pump and duckbills--to prevent a buildup in the pump or bits of waste or TP from becoming stuck in a duckbill, creating one of those pesky air leaks that causes the pump to cycle for no reason...at least another quart. And if you don't want permeated hoses, it's a very good idea--last thing before the boat will sit (or at least once a week if you're living aboard)--to fill the bowl to the rim with clean water and flush it through to thoroughly rinse out the vacuum tank, hoses and pump...'cuz suction splatters waste all over 'em and the flush water flow isn't sufficient to completely fill the hoses. So, averaged out over a week, the VacuFlush actually NEEDS about the same amount of flush water as most other toilets that use pressurized flush water: about .5 gal/flush. If you're using much less than that, you're asking for problems.

so I would end up with half the flush capacity of the vacuflush system...

Nope...just about the same. In fact, if you add the optional 3 way switch, actually a bit more, plus without all the rest of the junk--filter, vacuum pump etc--you'd have room for a larger tank. Ronco Plastics Ronco Plastics (no relation to the VegoMatic Ronco) makes TOP quality tanks for a very reasonable price and has more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular...and they install fittings in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank. And you'd have a tank that can BREATHE!

and more to potentially break (aka macerator pump)....

The "macerator pump" consists of an impeller and a "blender" blade...you'd really have to WORK at it to break either one!


Do you know of anything that compares to the system I was originally looking at?

The only thing that can use as little water as you think a V/Flush can get by with, that can also be pumped out, is an "MSD" portapotty (one that's designed to be permanently installed and fitted for pumpout). No moving parts so no maintenance...holds 50-60 flushes (you'd need a 25-30 gallon tank connected to ANY toilet to hold that many)...no plumbing except a pumpout line and a vent line..Whole thing is self-contained in the head, so you don't lose any storage space. Iow, all the advantages of a toilet and tank with none of the problems.

A goggle search turns up the Thetford 365 MSD http://www.thetford.com/Home/Products/PortableToiletsHome/PortaPotti365MSD/tabid/160/Default.aspx for as little $117

The 465 MSD is the "electric" version of the 365...uses AA cells.http://www.thetford.com/HOME/PRODUCTS/PortableToilets/PortaPotti465MSD/tabid/161/Default.aspx Google says it's available for as little as $125.

But, once again...it's YOUR boat, YOUR money...not mine. There's not a lot more I can contribute to this debate.

 

[FourPoints]

Which is actually about what a Vacuflush REALLY needs. SeaLand's claim that it can use "as little as" 1 pint of flush water is VERY carefully worded. If only urine is flushed...no water added to the bowl first, no TP either...then yes, you CAN get away with that little, at least for a few flushes. But if you do much of that, unless you want odor, at least once a day you need to run at least half a bowl of clean water through it to rinse out the system. It's also advisable to add at least half a bowl of water ahead of solids or any TP (iow, every time a female uses the toilet)...that's a quart or more. It's also essential to leave the pedal down for at least 7-10 seconds after the bowl is empty to rinse out the pump and duckbills--to prevent a buildup in the pump or bits of waste or TP from becoming stuck in a duckbill, creating one of those pesky air leaks that causes the pump to cycle for no reason...at least another quart. And if you don't want permeated hoses, it's a very good idea--last thing before the boat will sit (or at least once a week if you're living aboard)--to fill the bowl to the rim with clean water and flush it through to thoroughly rinse out the vacuum tank, hoses and pump...'cuz suction splatters waste all over 'em and the flush water flow isn't sufficient to completely fill the hoses. So, averaged out over a week, the VacuFlush actually NEEDS about the same amount of flush water as most other toilets that use pressurized flush water: about .5 gal/flush. If you're using much less than that, you're asking for problems.

sounds like over a shorter trip (2 or 3 day) the vaccu flush still uses less, but maybe not as much less as I was expecting. Guess I'd be down to at most 10 flushes with that size tank, and that's starting to hit the size of not worth it...

Nope...just about the same. In fact, if you add the optional 3 way switch, actually a bit more, plus without all the rest of the junk--filter, vacuum pump etc--you'd have room for a larger tank.

I'm still concerned with the size, but I see your point. I'll have to get in the lazerette and do some mesasureing to see just how much space I can really manage.

Ronco Plastics Ronco Plastics (no relation to the VegoMatic Ronco) makes TOP quality tanks for a very reasonable price and has more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular...and they install fittings in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank.

that may work, prices aren't too bad either, and I do like the idea of having a fairly common system, even though I really liked the vacuflush concept....

And you'd have a tank that can BREATHE!

why is that actually better than the vacutank where it is held at negative pressure? I would think attaching a good carbon air filter to the only place air leaves the tank (vacu pump output) ensures you don't get any stink from the tank, and with the only place for air to come in being through the bowl, the system stays air tight and stink free...

Conversly you can't easily filter a regular tank vent, and you need lots of additional ducting for airflow (or am I wrong?)

The "macerator pump" consists of an impeller and a "blender" blade...you'd really have to WORK at it to break either one!

I guess I didn't meak break, as much as I meant clog... I've heard they can clog fairly easily, leaving a fairly unpleasant disassembly and unclog procedure. Plus I still have a joker valve that needs replaced every year or so, with the vacuflush I was under the impression there are no parts that need regular replacement like that.

The only thing that can use as little water as you think a V/Flush can get by with, that can also be pumped out, is an "MSD" portapotty (one that's designed to be permanently installed and fitted for pumpout). No moving parts so no maintenance...holds 50-60 flushes (you'd need a 25-30 gallon tank connected to ANY toilet to hold that many)...no plumbing except a pumpout line and a vent line..Whole thing is self-contained in the head, so you don't lose any storage space. Iow, all the advantages of a toilet and tank with none of the problems.

Sounds simple, but if it's got a tank underneith that you can see into or hear things go splash in, the girls won't want to use it, and I'm back to where I started... They want it to flush and be "gone".

 

[BI40]

I must agree with Peggie. Our last boat was one size too large to "enjoy" (but a great live aboard at the dock in DC).

Two heads, each with a Vacuflush system. Three vacuum pumps chugging away under the cockpit plus two spare pump units (central pump was different than the head pumps) ...each at maybe $700.

It was a nightmare trying to keep the whole system tight enough to hold a vacuum. When it worked correctly, it was great, but when the daemons came calling, it was very difficult to trouble-shoot. I spent way more time keeping the heads working than any other maintenance issue on the whole boat.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I'll have to get in the lazerette and do some mesasureing to see just how much space I can really manage.

If the head is just behind the v-berth, the best place for a tank is under the v-berth. Regardless, it needs to be within 6' of the toilet.

why is that actually better than the vacutank where it is held at negative pressure?

I wrote a whole book explaining that (see the link in my signature below). You'll also find plenty of conversation in the discussions in this forum that should explain it.

I've heard they can clog fairly easily, leaving a fairly unpleasant disassembly and unclog procedure.

You've heard a LOT of stuff, most of which isn't true either. Yes...wet wipes, paper towels, tampons, etc will clog a macerating toilet. They'll also clog any manual toilet AND a vacuum pump.

Plus I still have a joker valve that needs replaced every year or so, with the vacuflush I was under the impression there are no parts that need regular replacement like that.

Wrong impression again. The vacuum pump has FOUR duckbill valves (joker valves) that should be replaced at least every couple of years.

Sounds simple, but if it's got a tank underneith that you can see into or hear things go splash in, the girls won't want to use it, and I'm back to where I started... They want it to flush and be "gone".

In 25 years, I've yet to run into anyone who's ever complained that they can see or hear any splashing in a self contained system--or even from a holding tank under a berth....but your "girls" could turn out to be the first. However, $117 is a small price to find out.

I'd forgotten about this system: SeaLand Traveler at Defender It's really just a glorified MSD portapotty that uses the same bowl assembly as the VacuFlush, and also uses pressurized flush water...doesn't need any power, and actually can use as little as a pint of flush water. Only downside...the 9 gallon tank has 20 x 20 footprint.

Before you ask...no, that toilet and tank can NOT be installed separately. Without the vacuum tank and pump it's a gravity discharge toilet that has to sit directly above the tank, just like any other portapotty does.

 

[FourPoints]

If the head is just behind the v-berth, the best place for a tank is under the v-berth. Regardless, it needs to be within 6' of the toilet.

The head is on the port side midships, right next to the companionway. The port side forward cockpit bulkhead is aft side of the head, so It would be a shorter trip to the lazarette than under the V berth...

In 25 years, I've yet to run into anyone who's ever complained that they can see or hear any splashing in a self contained system--or even from a holding tank under a berth....but your "girls" could turn out to be the first. However, $117 is a small price to find out.

I think it's more to do with the idea that if it gets flushed somewhere else, it's not as unsanitary. Similar to the idea that using an actual porta potty, even if the seat is clean, just seems uncomfortable to many people knowing that it isn't a clean bowl of water below you.

Personally if I have to go, it doesn't matter what's under me as long as it doesn't get on me. But I was given the directive that if we are going to invite friends out for overnight trips, then a head that flushes is not optional...

I'd forgotten about this system: SeaLand Traveler at Defender It's really just a glorified MSD portapotty that uses the same bowl assembly as the VacuFlush, and also uses pressurized flush water...doesn't need any power, and actually can use as little as a pint of flush water. Only downside...the 9 gallon tank has 20 x 20 footprint.

don't think it would fit my space very well in that configuration, it would be too tall unless I modified a few other things in the head...

Before you ask...no, that toilet and tank can NOT be installed separately. Without the vacuum tank and pump it's a gravity discharge toilet that has to sit directly above the tank, just like any other portapotty does.

if it's just a integrated pump and vacuum holding tank, with a regular head dropped on top of it, doesn't that mean the tank could be removed and plumbed to the head? it would definitely work on the head side since it's a normal head and meant to be plumbed, so is it just a fitting on the tank that would prevent that from happening? you would basically have the type of unit I was looking at originally, you would just have to figure out how to attach the plumbing to the tank without the head being directly attached.

It would seem that a little engineering effort to split them into 2 units would be worth the time and effort unless I am missing something...

EDIT: I just found the manual for it, and it seems it's not a vacuum tank below it so it wouldn't matter, and your comments now make much more sense about being a gravity bowl.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

if it's just a integrated pump and vacuum holding tank, with a regular head dropped on top of it, doesn't that mean the tank could be removed and plumbed to the head?

That's not what it is. There is no pump in that toilet...the pedal only starts flush water and opens the "trap door" in the bowl, same as what happens in a portapotty. So the holding tank has to be directly below it.

I just found the manual for it, and it seems it's not a vacuum tank below it ...

No...it's just a 9.5 gallon holding tank.

Look...between us we've uploaded more words than there are in "Gone With the Wind"...and keep coming back to the same place: If you don't want to go with a self contained system, the simplest, least expensive solution--the one that meets your criteria 100% for the most affordable price--is a Raritan SeaEra toilet and a Ronco Plastics holding tank installed under the v-berth or a settee.

And with that, I'm bowing out...'cuz except for helping you spec out the plumbing to install a SeaEra and a tank, there really isn't ANYthing more than I can offer to this discussion.