V22-forestay question

TahoeMAC · Jun 20, 2013

V22 rigging

Hi Quinn;
Welcome to the MAC family. Hope you enjoy your 22 as much as I do mine.
With regards to your question about forestay length.
Here are some specs that were given by a Macgregor rep. in Costa Mesa.
V-22/M22 rigging:
a) forestay 1/8 1x19 SS wire 24' 8 1/2" (thimble at both ends)
b) backstay 1/8 1x19 SS wire 26' 5" (slide on one end, bent tang on other)
c) lower shrouds 1/8 1x19 SS wire 11' 0" (slide one end, bracket on other)
d) upper shrouds 1/8 1x19 SS wire 24' 3" (slide one end, bracket on other)

Hope that helps. I used these specs when I replaced my standing rigging and it worked a treat. I also replaced the stay adjuster slides with SS turnbuckles and installed a split backstay for strength and to remove any possible tiller interference.
Cheers,
CH

caguy · Jun 20, 2013

Usually when stepping the mast the backstay is disconnected. The side stays are swept back and will prevent the mast from falling forward. After the forestay is tightened it will tighten the side stays to the correct tension. This is where a Johnson lever it very handy for repeat mast raising , if you want more info on that search or ask. It really is a mod worth doing. The back stay is attached after the forestay is adjusted. The backstay does not have to be very tight. The pig tail is used as a topping lift for the boom when you are not under sail. Make sure you unhook it immediately after the main is raised or things can get hairy especially if windy and you can't release the boom. Most people have replaced the pigtail with a topping lift that attaches to the top of the main and is adjustible at the boom. You can also run the topping lift line through a block at the top of the mast and adjust it in the cockpit or at the base of the mast.
If you need help adjusting the forestay and side stay tensions just ask. If he adjusted before they should still be correct.

Knuttle · Jun 21, 2013

On my V-21, a slightly smaller sibling to the V-22, I never disconnect the backstay. As said it is always under less tension than the side stays, It does not interfere with the raising of the mast. When the mast is down, I gather it along with the side stays and bind them together for traveling.

I have found that when I come up short on the forstay, the problem is the mast is not fully down in the tabernacle. This is usually caused by the through bolt being tight, not letting the mast slid down freely.

The second general problem is that one of the attachments on one of the stays is looped back effectively shortening the stay. Difficult to describe but wire comes out of the side/top of the loop on the fitting instead of the bottom.

PS: I have had this boat for 45 years and never found a great way to hold the rigging together for travel. Any new suggestions would be welcomed.

Tip: always try to raise the mast with the boat pointed down hill. Once the mast is nearly up, the mast will "fall" into the correct position. Since the bow is lower than the stern, the mast is forward of the mast step and is less likely to fall backward.

Second make sure that all of the rigging will go up with out snagging ANYTHING.

centerline · Jun 21, 2013

you have to really pull forward on the jib halyard to get the mast forward and the rigging tensioned properly to connect the forestay, but if you already have it pulled tight, tight, then its possible the rigging is fouled at a connection on the upper end of it that you are not seeing, or someone has removed the turnbuckle....
the backstay does not really need any tension at all for rigging or sailing on a masthead rigged v22....

Doc_holiday · Jun 22, 2013

At one point I had a block on the bow rail so I could pull the mast and set the forestay. I still haven't got a Johnson lever yet but I simply loosen the turnbuckle. On my 26s I have no backstay adjustment.

This year, if I ever get it in the water, I going to run with two forestays. My shrouds all go to the masthead and I have a shorter mast than you all by about a foot and a half. My fractional forestay is only like 3 feet down. I will loosen the unused forestay ( and if'n it's the lower one, I'll bring it to the mast)

centerline · Jun 23, 2013

Doc_holiday said:
At one point I had a block on the bow rail so I could pull the mast and set the forestay. I still haven't got a Johnson lever yet but I simply loosen the turnbuckle. On my 26s I have no backstay adjustment.

This year, if I ever get it in the water, I going to run with two forestays. My shrouds all go to the masthead and I have a shorter mast than you all by about a foot and a half. My fractional forestay is only like 3 feet down. I will loosen the unused forestay ( and if'n it's the lower one, I'll bring it to the mast)

Doc, how is it that all your shrouds go to the masthead, yet the forestay is attached lower? this would add tremendous stress on the rig when sailing in decent wind... the variable wind loading in the jib would be continually flexing the mast quite a bit more than is normal.

if the upper shrouds go the the masthead, so should the forestay..... and you need lower shrouds to give some rigidity and strength to the mast. the side loading can be severe on an unstayed or improperly stayed mast....Or let me put it this way, the side loading is severe and can be catastrophic on an unstayed or improperly stayed mast

BUT... i'm curious about your thoughts of running 2 forestays.... are you going to try to fly 2 headsails at once? or which stay would you use to fly the single headsail from?.... what is the point of the second headstay? or second headsail?
keep in mind that tensioning both headstays to the proper specs will severely overload the tension on the shrouds, or the boat and its entire rigging plan in general.... but running them a bit slack should be fine for the rest of it....

I have though about trying twin headstays (side by side) so i could have the genoa hanked to one and the jib on the other one... I dont have a furler and it would be nice to just douse and hoist when i feel the need to change sails, rather than un-hanking and stowing, then hanking on the other sail.... it would be a big time saver, but i think i would need to have a way to tension one or the other forestay, and not have than both tight at the same time...

my modified stem fitting allows for a connection of 2 stays that would spread apart about 7 inches at the base, (so the stay cables wouldnt rub or foul one another) its a thought of mine but I have no plans to try it at this time, but i am curious about others who may have tried it or thought about it.

Doc_holiday · Jun 24, 2013

Sorry for my ADD response. I'll get to it in pieces I'm sure.

Ok. I know the shrouds and forestay have to go to the same point. I didn't know that last year when I built the frankenrig. I purchased a new jib and it was sized for a traditional Mac and I installed the fractional forestay to Mac specs. My shrouds and mast were from my clipper marine. The shrouds were 1 1/2" too short so I made some extenders for the chain plates to work.

Now that I know the forestay problem, I have to deal with it. Turns out the clipper forestay fits perfect. But now I have a head sail that looks like a storm jib. I don't have $$$ for a new jib or new rigging.

So the masthead forestay is there to keep the mast straight and hold the rig in the event of catastrophic failure (I don't want to get killed when it falls). The lower forestay will accommodate my short sail better. I do however still have the clipper jib which needs work. I could disconnect the lower forestay and fly it. If I use the smaller jib, the upper forestay is there as insurance yet not tensioned. Once the jib loads you would see slack in it.

It's not a cutter. Although if I could figure out how to install a chain plate 3' aft of the existing one, it could be. If I ever had a spinnaker, I would need that upper forestay for sure.

It's not perfect but if I ever can afford new sails or new rigging I would just plan on masthead.

I don't race it, I hate sailing down wind. And I do keep the backstay tight to help with mast support.

The nice thing about the small jib is I can handle decent wind. The downside is, I can't sail in low wind.

centerline · Jun 26, 2013

Doc_holiday said:
Sorry for my ADD response. I'll get to it in pieces I'm sure.

Ok. I know the shrouds and forestay have to go to the same point. I didn't know that last year when I built the frankenrig. I purchased a new jib and it was sized for a traditional Mac and I installed the fractional forestay to Mac specs. My shrouds and mast were from my clipper marine. The shrouds were 1 1/2" too short so I made some extenders for the chain plates to work.

Now that I know the forestay problem, I have to deal with it. Turns out the clipper forestay fits perfect. But now I have a head sail that looks like a storm jib. I don't have $$$ for a new jib or new rigging.

So the masthead forestay is there to keep the mast straight and hold the rig in the event of catastrophic failure (I don't want to get killed when it falls). The lower forestay will accommodate my short sail better. I do however still have the clipper jib which needs work. I could disconnect the lower forestay and fly it. If I use the smaller jib, the upper forestay is there as insurance yet not tensioned. Once the jib loads you would see slack in it.

It's not a cutter. Although if I could figure out how to install a chain plate 3' aft of the existing one, it could be. If I ever had a spinnaker, I would need that upper forestay for sure.

It's not perfect but if I ever can afford new sails or new rigging I would just plan on masthead.

I don't race it, I hate sailing down wind. And I do keep the backstay tight to help with mast support.

The nice thing about the small jib is I can handle decent wind. The downside is, I can't sail in low wind.

itsallunderstandablenow....

my 2cents says to use the masthead forestay and delete the fractional one.... the jib may look like a storm sail, but its the same size whether its on a masthead rig or a fractional rig....
as far as a safety stay goes, just make sure the single forestay is pinned securely, top and bottom....
when you raise the jib and pull it tight, you will reduce the tension on the forestay slightly(by however much you pull the halyard) so when you are sailing you have the additional support of the jib luff wire holding the mast up, so even if the forestay were to break, the mast shouldnt fall if all else is in decent shape.
the back stay should be relatively loose unless you are racing.... it should not support the mast, that work is done by the shrouds and forestay on a mac. it really serves no purpose on a masthead rigged mac, other than it offers a place to hang the pigtail from for the rear boom support.

and down wind isnt bad if you rig a boom brake or preventor on the main and pole out the jib..... its fairly relaxing.
i prefer the boom brake as it can be about as secure as a preventor on our small boats, yet can be adjusted to create a braking effect during a jibe so the boom moves easily to the other side and wont accidentally slam over....

Doc_holiday · Jun 28, 2013

Ok... I appreciate your help... I guess my concern is the "gap" between the leech and the mast with a smaller sail. Won't I lose some slot effect if there is not a smaller slot? I mean I realize less sail means less power but doesn't that slot act as "propulsion". I also know the sail shape makes the lift (like an airplane wing). I could put a longer pendant on the bottom of the sail. I will loosten my back stay to the next hole (its a different set up). Who knows may make getting the forestay pinned easier too.

timebandit · Jun 28, 2013

Four inches is a small amount, check your other rigging for proper set up befor chasing problems that may not exist.

When dealing with Macs remember the KISS principal.

Keep It Simple Stupid.

QuinnMcColly said:
Hello all! My wife and I wanted to rig our 'new to us' Macgregor V22. The problem we encounted was that with backstay/shrouds rigged the forestay seemed to be about 4 inches too short. I rememberd seeing a pigtail and am wondering if when the previous owner replaced the standing a couple of years ago he mis-measured and used the pigtail to cover the difference? The shrouds/backstay didn't seem to be under a whole lot of tension while we were attempting stepping the mast, but maybe I need to loosen them a notch? any information/suggestions you have would be appreciated!

Thanks
Quinn

caguy · Jun 28, 2013

Doc_holiday said:
Ok... I appreciate your help... I guess my concern is the "gap" between the leech and the mast with a smaller sail. Won't I lose some slot effect if there is not a smaller slot? I mean I realize less sail means less power but doesn't that slot act as "propulsion". I also know the sail shape makes the lift (like an airplane wing). I could put a longer pendant on the bottom of the sail. I will loosen my back stay to the next hole (its a different set up). Who knows may make getting the forestay pinned easier too.

Your boat is a masthead rig, which means that the forestay ia attached to the masthead. The Mac 25 is a fractional rigging and the forestay is attached about 3' below the masthead.
You do not need a second forestay for safety. The rigging if it ever does fail you will likely be under sail and as pointed out the luff rope in your foresail will keep the mast up.

As mentioned earlier I use to detach the back-stay when putting up the mast as I dd not want it tweaking on me and coming up short. You can if you wish leave it very loose, as in really sagging.

The forestay if you haven't figured it out yet it very difficult to pin when tensioned correctly. So you will have to lengthen you toggle all the way and still struggle with it. That is the reason for the Johnson lever mentioned earlier. Even with that extended its a struggle.

What is the attitude of the mast when you tried to raise it? If you are 4" short you will notice that the mast is raked back considerably.

I've attached some pictures and diagrams that show your rigging and how the various sails (jib vs Genoa) look when raised. Notice how small the jib is.

Where are you located in California? If you're in the LA area there are several of us willing to take a look. Northerner's are less friendly (San Francisco excepted).

Doc_holiday · Jun 30, 2013

I did get rid of the fractional forestay as recommended by you all yesterday when I splashed it. I didn't sail, I just motored around. It's a good thing too because I forgot to fill the ballast tank before I went out. I realized it when I got into the slip.

Don't confuse me with the OP, I am in Virginia. I didn't mean to derail the thread. Mine is a 26s frankenrig. It is a masthead rig with a 26 1/2' mast. I also loosened the backstay as recommended. I trust you guys are right.

I was excited to see my transducer was working well in the laz bedded in toilet ring wax. The motor started on the first pull and all is good.

I will take he out for a sail this week. I have it on the rappahannock river for now. My dad is coming in and my nephews from France will be here. It's only temporary for a week or so since I didn't get done with the bottom paint. At the end of the week, I'll bring her home, re clean the bottom and get her painted before we head to Annapolis for the Sippy Cup race.

It's too bad I missed so much of the season already. Maybe after the sippy cup I'll get her in the water for the rest of the season.

Crap, I forgot to put my wind indicator on the mast before I raised it.

V22-forestay question

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