I am in the process of refitting a 1985 H31 that I recently bought. This weekend I inspected the head and holding tank set up. The head is plumbed to a vented loop and then directly to a through hull for overboard discharge. It appears that the built in fiberglass holding tank has never been used since the tank outlet nipple has no hose on it and there is a hose running from the pumpout deck plate to the tank nipple that should run to the toilet discharge. I'd like to know what kind of experience, good or stinky, others have had with the built in V-Berth fiberglass holding tanks. How do they hold up? Do they smell? Does the seal on the V-Berth cover plate need periodic redoing? It would be a relatively simple matter to connect new hoses properly from the head to the existing holding tank and replump the tank outlet to the pump out deck plate. But since the tank is clean, it is an opportunity to install a bladder or other tank inside it if folks have found the built in tanks to be unreliable. I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks. Laura Bertran 1985 H31, Rising Tide
- Status
V-berth holding tank.
The holding tank in my H31 was relined with a bladder tank and reassigned for as a fresh water tank. I now use a portable potty which is some work but the boat smells very nice! I can ssure you that the holding tank will have gas leaks that will smell the boat up; by the way this has been my experience in every boat. At the very least use a bladdler to reline the holding tank and make sure all the fittings are double clampes and very tight.
The holding tank in my H31 was relined with a bladder tank and reassigned for as a fresh water tank. I now use a portable potty which is some work but the boat smells very nice! I can ssure you that the holding tank will have gas leaks that will smell the boat up; by the way this has been my experience in every boat. At the very least use a bladdler to reline the holding tank and make sure all the fittings are double clampes and very tight.
I Have A Built In On My H-27
Laura, and it works just fine......IF you take the time to treat it right. I suggest that you check out "the head mistress" link on this site and ask Peggy for guidance. She is great with the trouble shooting, answers and thoughts of possible future issues. I will state that since I read one of her articles about the use of White Vinegar, we have not experienced ANY problem with odors. The key is proper treatment, timely pump-outs and good vents. I think you will learn a lot from her articles! Good Luck.
Laura, and it works just fine......IF you take the time to treat it right. I suggest that you check out "the head mistress" link on this site and ask Peggy for guidance. She is great with the trouble shooting, answers and thoughts of possible future issues. I will state that since I read one of her articles about the use of White Vinegar, we have not experienced ANY problem with odors. The key is proper treatment, timely pump-outs and good vents. I think you will learn a lot from her articles! Good Luck.
Plastic Tanks are Good Tanks
New boat owner, eh? So you didn't know what to do with all your spare time? Well, we'll fix that! Anyway, congratulations! Back in the 80s when "plastic" tanks were being used it seems may knowledgeable boaters poopoo'd them. However, time will tell and it did. After 13 years I've had no electrolysis and no leaks. If the lighting is okay and the tank is visible one can see what the liquid level is, be it water, fuel, or waste. Some boats in later years had stainless tanks installed and have subsequently had problems due to electrolysis but the plastic tanks keep chugging along as being trouble-free. The comment Jay Kent made about checking out the Head Mistress's forum is spot-on. Since your setup is clean and like new this is a really good time to get everything set up properly. 1. One of the things I'd look at is venting the vent in the vented loop overboard, if it isn't already. [or probably not - see Peggy Hall's comment] 2. Another item would be to replace existing hoses with the low-gas permeable type. Yes, it is expensive (that's why the factory didn't do it) but doing it now would be easier than later. The existing OEM hoses will eventually allow gas to seep through. The low-gas permeable hoses are black and don't look as pretty. One suggestion I heard was to wrap the visible portion with white electrical or rigging tape but this may be only a temporary fix. 3. Consider using potable water for flushing. Don't plumb the head to the potable water system, however, because you don't want a cross connection. The idea is to keep salt from clogging up the hoses. Maybe keep a gallon plastic jug handy? 4. Part of the odor problems stem from organic material that collects inside the ring at the top of the bowl. This is where the sea water enters. If this can be kept clean then there will be less odor. 5. Your head is probably a Sea-Land head which you can't buy parts for anymore. You can use it for a while but eventually it'll have to be replaced. The Raritan is a good unit that has a lever-arm that makes pumping easier than the Sea-Land. Make sure the head is never pumped when the holding tank is full! This can have disastrous side effects on the structural integrity of the tank! (Or a hose can pop off) Good luck with your new endeavor!
New boat owner, eh? So you didn't know what to do with all your spare time? Well, we'll fix that! Anyway, congratulations! Back in the 80s when "plastic" tanks were being used it seems may knowledgeable boaters poopoo'd them. However, time will tell and it did. After 13 years I've had no electrolysis and no leaks. If the lighting is okay and the tank is visible one can see what the liquid level is, be it water, fuel, or waste. Some boats in later years had stainless tanks installed and have subsequently had problems due to electrolysis but the plastic tanks keep chugging along as being trouble-free. The comment Jay Kent made about checking out the Head Mistress's forum is spot-on. Since your setup is clean and like new this is a really good time to get everything set up properly. 1. One of the things I'd look at is venting the vent in the vented loop overboard, if it isn't already. [or probably not - see Peggy Hall's comment] 2. Another item would be to replace existing hoses with the low-gas permeable type. Yes, it is expensive (that's why the factory didn't do it) but doing it now would be easier than later. The existing OEM hoses will eventually allow gas to seep through. The low-gas permeable hoses are black and don't look as pretty. One suggestion I heard was to wrap the visible portion with white electrical or rigging tape but this may be only a temporary fix. 3. Consider using potable water for flushing. Don't plumb the head to the potable water system, however, because you don't want a cross connection. The idea is to keep salt from clogging up the hoses. Maybe keep a gallon plastic jug handy? 4. Part of the odor problems stem from organic material that collects inside the ring at the top of the bowl. This is where the sea water enters. If this can be kept clean then there will be less odor. 5. Your head is probably a Sea-Land head which you can't buy parts for anymore. You can use it for a while but eventually it'll have to be replaced. The Raritan is a good unit that has a lever-arm that makes pumping easier than the Sea-Land. Make sure the head is never pumped when the holding tank is full! This can have disastrous side effects on the structural integrity of the tank! (Or a hose can pop off) Good luck with your new endeavor!
Nothing wrong with the molded in tanks!
Laura: I have had the molded in tank since the boat was new. Much of the "reported problems" with these tanks had to do with the hoses. Many owners blamed the tank as there problem when the real culprit was the hoses. These tanks are gel coated on the inside. If you look at the Photo Forum, Rip Edmunson did a photo essay and resealing his water tank. I am sure that re-doing the holding tank would NOT be nearly as pleasant. We have not had any problem with the tank seal on the holding tank. The key here is to keep the vent line clean and clear and have SeaLand (or other non-permeable) hose in the system. West Marine has a very good diagram of how to plumb the system properly. Since you are in salt water, you could also consider installing an aux. fresh water tank just for flushing the head. This helps any odor build up from the salt water creatures that seem to die in the raw water intake lines. If you do the plumbing properly the first time (not cheap) it will last you several years. If you do it cheaply you will be doing it again in a couple of years. The SeaLand hose runs in the neighborhood of $8-9/ft. for the sewage hose.
Laura: I have had the molded in tank since the boat was new. Much of the "reported problems" with these tanks had to do with the hoses. Many owners blamed the tank as there problem when the real culprit was the hoses. These tanks are gel coated on the inside. If you look at the Photo Forum, Rip Edmunson did a photo essay and resealing his water tank. I am sure that re-doing the holding tank would NOT be nearly as pleasant. We have not had any problem with the tank seal on the holding tank. The key here is to keep the vent line clean and clear and have SeaLand (or other non-permeable) hose in the system. West Marine has a very good diagram of how to plumb the system properly. Since you are in salt water, you could also consider installing an aux. fresh water tank just for flushing the head. This helps any odor build up from the salt water creatures that seem to die in the raw water intake lines. If you do the plumbing properly the first time (not cheap) it will last you several years. If you do it cheaply you will be doing it again in a couple of years. The SeaLand hose runs in the neighborhood of $8-9/ft. for the sewage hose.
A few notes on your comments, John...
There shouldn't be any need to vent a vented loop to the outside...The vent in a vented loop is supposed to have an air valve in it that only lets air IN to break a siphon...it's not supposed to let air or anything else out. If it's squirting or letting gasses out, the air valve either needs cleaning or replacing or it's missing. It's not gasses that permeate hoses...it's liquid. If the liquid stinks, so will the hose (which is why it's important to leave only clean water standing in hoses, especially when the boat will be sitting for days or weeks). Some hoses have a tighter molecular structure than others...some are thicker...or both, all of which slow down the rate at which the material soaks up liquid. The SeaLand OdorSafe hose isn't immune to permeation...what sets it apart is a "skin" of a material similar to Saran Wrap, which is impermeable, that's bonded to the outside of it. The simplest, most effective, and least expensive way to prevent sea water intake odor is described in the article called "Intake Odor Cure" in the HM forum Reference Library. I'd also recommend reading "Flush With Success" and "Head Related Odors--Causes Cures." Never pump the head when the tank is full is excellent advice. I would only add to it, check the tank vent line regularly and often...a blocked vent is most likely to occur at the thru-hull--dust, dirt, pollen, insects--and it doesn't take a full tank, or even a 1/4 full tank, for blocked vent to create disastrous results.
There shouldn't be any need to vent a vented loop to the outside...The vent in a vented loop is supposed to have an air valve in it that only lets air IN to break a siphon...it's not supposed to let air or anything else out. If it's squirting or letting gasses out, the air valve either needs cleaning or replacing or it's missing. It's not gasses that permeate hoses...it's liquid. If the liquid stinks, so will the hose (which is why it's important to leave only clean water standing in hoses, especially when the boat will be sitting for days or weeks). Some hoses have a tighter molecular structure than others...some are thicker...or both, all of which slow down the rate at which the material soaks up liquid. The SeaLand OdorSafe hose isn't immune to permeation...what sets it apart is a "skin" of a material similar to Saran Wrap, which is impermeable, that's bonded to the outside of it. The simplest, most effective, and least expensive way to prevent sea water intake odor is described in the article called "Intake Odor Cure" in the HM forum Reference Library. I'd also recommend reading "Flush With Success" and "Head Related Odors--Causes Cures." Never pump the head when the tank is full is excellent advice. I would only add to it, check the tank vent line regularly and often...a blocked vent is most likely to occur at the thru-hull--dust, dirt, pollen, insects--and it doesn't take a full tank, or even a 1/4 full tank, for blocked vent to create disastrous results.
No problem with mine
My family, until 1998, owned the oldest and largest privately-held RV park (campground)on the Miss. Gulf Coast and did so for more than 30 years, so we've seen just about every kind of holding tank problem, I think, on earth. The principal problem is fecal-matter decay coupled with improperly maintained and serviced holding tanks. You must use a holding-tank chemical and I recommend the Aqua-Chem family of products that are readily available at all RV centers or sporting goods/camping stores. There are two kinds; the tried-and-true Blue Aqua-Chem which contains formaldehyde and the relatively new Aqua-Chem Green which does not. I have been using Aqua-Chem Green for 3 years and have been quite happy with the product. My 78h30 has its holding tank beneath the forward v-berth and I don't have a problem with odors and I sleep up there! Also, when at the dock, I don't use the on-board head for fecal matter and I don't put toilet paper in the system. Aqua-Chem produces a toilet paper they claim will dissolve completely, but experience tells me that paper is paper and can cause problems. On those occasions when fecal disposal through the on-board head is required, paper goes into paper sacks and into garbage bags and the holding tank gets serviced when we put into port. I think if you will follow the directions on the Aqua-Chem packaging, you will find that you have very few problems. Personally, I don't go in for home remedies when it comes to septic treatment aboard boats/yachts/rv's. I believe I'm pretty sound in this advice since I never have problems with holding tanks and heads aboard my boat. Good luck.
My family, until 1998, owned the oldest and largest privately-held RV park (campground)on the Miss. Gulf Coast and did so for more than 30 years, so we've seen just about every kind of holding tank problem, I think, on earth. The principal problem is fecal-matter decay coupled with improperly maintained and serviced holding tanks. You must use a holding-tank chemical and I recommend the Aqua-Chem family of products that are readily available at all RV centers or sporting goods/camping stores. There are two kinds; the tried-and-true Blue Aqua-Chem which contains formaldehyde and the relatively new Aqua-Chem Green which does not. I have been using Aqua-Chem Green for 3 years and have been quite happy with the product. My 78h30 has its holding tank beneath the forward v-berth and I don't have a problem with odors and I sleep up there! Also, when at the dock, I don't use the on-board head for fecal matter and I don't put toilet paper in the system. Aqua-Chem produces a toilet paper they claim will dissolve completely, but experience tells me that paper is paper and can cause problems. On those occasions when fecal disposal through the on-board head is required, paper goes into paper sacks and into garbage bags and the holding tank gets serviced when we put into port. I think if you will follow the directions on the Aqua-Chem packaging, you will find that you have very few problems. Personally, I don't go in for home remedies when it comes to septic treatment aboard boats/yachts/rv's. I believe I'm pretty sound in this advice since I never have problems with holding tanks and heads aboard my boat. Good luck.
I hate to disagree with your recommendations, Bob
But I have to go with proven bio-chemical principles, not just on anecdotal experience on my own boat. Chemical holding tank products are not only environmentally UNfriendly and harmful to septic tanks and sewage treatment facilities, but they prevent the breakdown of solids and paper by killing bacteria...resulting in sludge. Only organic products--enzymes, live bacteria, or nitrates--should ever be used in a holding tank...they work with the naturally occurring bacteria to prevent odor from forming in the first place. In fact, if were possible (and it is, it's just not practical on a sailboat) to aerate and oxygenate the contents of a holding tank sufficiently, it wouldn't be necessary to use anything in a tank...because when any organic material, including toilet waste, breaks down aerobically (using oxygen), it converts to CO2, which is odorless...but when it breaks down anaerobically (without sufficient oxygen), it converts to hydrogen sulfide gasses. Both urine and fecal matter behave the same way, so there's nothing to be gained by avoiding putting any solids in the tank. Nor is there any reason to avoid flushing toilet paper--provided it's used in limited quantities, is the kind that practically dissolves when it gets wet (and btw, "marine/rv" toilet paper is nothing more than the cheapest institutional grade toilet paper at 3-5x the price it's sold for in supermarkets), and the bowl contents are flushed ALL the way to the tank, it can go thorugh any marine toilet with no problems. However, premium brands and large wads of any toilet paper will surely cause a clog. I do recommend telling landlubber guests that *nothing* goes down the toilet they haven't eaten first...it's much easier and a LOT less open to their interpretation than trying to explain the differences between Kleenex and the TP in the head. As for the absence of any odor from the holding tank inside your boat...that has nothing to do with what's used in the tank. Odor from inside a sound tank has only one place to go: out the vent. Only if the tank were leaking could any odor escape INSIDE the boat. RV systems are very different from marine systems...RV tanks are usually directly below the toilet--eliminating the discharge hose...the tanks empty by gravity, which makes it much easier to dispose of sludge...and they're vented high in most cases, allowing odor from inside the tank to escape well above the heads of anyone around the the RV. Marine systems, otoh, must be at or near the same level as the toilet, which requires a hose to connect the two...because there's also at least one permantly installed discharge hose from the tank to remain full of waste in the enclosed confines of a hull, fitting a holding tank for gravity discharge isn't recommended...and boat toilets--both manual and electric--unlike RV toilets, are working pump machinery...not just a spring loaded mechanism to "trapdoor" in the bottom of a bowl. But marine and RV systems do have one thing in common: 99% of problems are due to lack of maintenance and/or putting something down the toilet that shouldn't have been. Same is true for public restrooms...ever have the misfortune to have to visit one on your way out of a major sporting event? For more details on all of the above, you might want to read the articles pertaining to holding tanks and odors in the HM forum Reference Library.
But I have to go with proven bio-chemical principles, not just on anecdotal experience on my own boat. Chemical holding tank products are not only environmentally UNfriendly and harmful to septic tanks and sewage treatment facilities, but they prevent the breakdown of solids and paper by killing bacteria...resulting in sludge. Only organic products--enzymes, live bacteria, or nitrates--should ever be used in a holding tank...they work with the naturally occurring bacteria to prevent odor from forming in the first place. In fact, if were possible (and it is, it's just not practical on a sailboat) to aerate and oxygenate the contents of a holding tank sufficiently, it wouldn't be necessary to use anything in a tank...because when any organic material, including toilet waste, breaks down aerobically (using oxygen), it converts to CO2, which is odorless...but when it breaks down anaerobically (without sufficient oxygen), it converts to hydrogen sulfide gasses. Both urine and fecal matter behave the same way, so there's nothing to be gained by avoiding putting any solids in the tank. Nor is there any reason to avoid flushing toilet paper--provided it's used in limited quantities, is the kind that practically dissolves when it gets wet (and btw, "marine/rv" toilet paper is nothing more than the cheapest institutional grade toilet paper at 3-5x the price it's sold for in supermarkets), and the bowl contents are flushed ALL the way to the tank, it can go thorugh any marine toilet with no problems. However, premium brands and large wads of any toilet paper will surely cause a clog. I do recommend telling landlubber guests that *nothing* goes down the toilet they haven't eaten first...it's much easier and a LOT less open to their interpretation than trying to explain the differences between Kleenex and the TP in the head. As for the absence of any odor from the holding tank inside your boat...that has nothing to do with what's used in the tank. Odor from inside a sound tank has only one place to go: out the vent. Only if the tank were leaking could any odor escape INSIDE the boat. RV systems are very different from marine systems...RV tanks are usually directly below the toilet--eliminating the discharge hose...the tanks empty by gravity, which makes it much easier to dispose of sludge...and they're vented high in most cases, allowing odor from inside the tank to escape well above the heads of anyone around the the RV. Marine systems, otoh, must be at or near the same level as the toilet, which requires a hose to connect the two...because there's also at least one permantly installed discharge hose from the tank to remain full of waste in the enclosed confines of a hull, fitting a holding tank for gravity discharge isn't recommended...and boat toilets--both manual and electric--unlike RV toilets, are working pump machinery...not just a spring loaded mechanism to "trapdoor" in the bottom of a bowl. But marine and RV systems do have one thing in common: 99% of problems are due to lack of maintenance and/or putting something down the toilet that shouldn't have been. Same is true for public restrooms...ever have the misfortune to have to visit one on your way out of a major sporting event? For more details on all of the above, you might want to read the articles pertaining to holding tanks and odors in the HM forum Reference Library.
Same thing with our H31
We have the same situation with our 1985 H31 that we bought last year. Could you send me an email to colsona2@yahoo.com when you decide what you are going to do. It would help us a great deal when we fix it this spring.
We have the same situation with our 1985 H31 that we bought last year. Could you send me an email to colsona2@yahoo.com when you decide what you are going to do. It would help us a great deal when we fix it this spring.
Holding Tanks v. Wastewater Treatment
Some of Peggy's remarks, while accurate in their reference to what Peggy is describing as industry-accepted wastewater treatment, I think miss the point because, as Peggy rightly points out, wastewater treatment is about as practical on a sailboat as it is at your house. The operative word here is "holding tank," and not wastewater treatment. I hate to do this because it's fraught with problems, but the fact is I know a little about wastewater treatment since, as a former city manager, I hold Class B and Class A wastewater treatment licenses from the State of Texas; not something one gets at the local dime store. And, since we are talking "holding tanks" and not "wastewater treatment," I think the point here is not to get into an overblown discussion as to how material put into a holding tank is digested and liquified by what lives in the tank, albeit from the purpose of said digestion. The original question on this matter was about how to prevent the smell. And, anyone who looks at holding tanks as a long-term storage facility is looking at it from a skewed perspective. Holding tanks are just that; tanks that hold this material until is can properly disposed of. As to the "green" nature of holding tank chemicals, well, you can scuba dive as long as I have and not become something of an environmentalist. The reefs in Cozumel are in very sad shape due to less than spectacular management of wastewater. However, there are a variety of chemicals out there -- organic and non-organic -- that are acceptable. I opted to use a more environmentally-friendly version of Aqua-Chem just as soon as the company provided it and there is something to be said about the chemicals that use bacteria in the same way as treatment plants use bacteria and the bacteria-based chemicals are excellent. The short of it is -- for anyone not trying to engage in discussions of how to build a clock when all they want to know is what time it is -- that holding tanks are simply that; holding tanks and if they are properly maintained and properly used, will not be any more noisome as somebody's left-over tuna sandwich in the ice chest. Taking time to pump the tanks, use whatever appropriate chemistry one chooses and even occasionally taking water hose in hand and washing the tank out will keep any septic-related smells out of the boat. Anyone who doubts this is more than welcome to step aboard my boat for an inspection.
Some of Peggy's remarks, while accurate in their reference to what Peggy is describing as industry-accepted wastewater treatment, I think miss the point because, as Peggy rightly points out, wastewater treatment is about as practical on a sailboat as it is at your house. The operative word here is "holding tank," and not wastewater treatment. I hate to do this because it's fraught with problems, but the fact is I know a little about wastewater treatment since, as a former city manager, I hold Class B and Class A wastewater treatment licenses from the State of Texas; not something one gets at the local dime store. And, since we are talking "holding tanks" and not "wastewater treatment," I think the point here is not to get into an overblown discussion as to how material put into a holding tank is digested and liquified by what lives in the tank, albeit from the purpose of said digestion. The original question on this matter was about how to prevent the smell. And, anyone who looks at holding tanks as a long-term storage facility is looking at it from a skewed perspective. Holding tanks are just that; tanks that hold this material until is can properly disposed of. As to the "green" nature of holding tank chemicals, well, you can scuba dive as long as I have and not become something of an environmentalist. The reefs in Cozumel are in very sad shape due to less than spectacular management of wastewater. However, there are a variety of chemicals out there -- organic and non-organic -- that are acceptable. I opted to use a more environmentally-friendly version of Aqua-Chem just as soon as the company provided it and there is something to be said about the chemicals that use bacteria in the same way as treatment plants use bacteria and the bacteria-based chemicals are excellent. The short of it is -- for anyone not trying to engage in discussions of how to build a clock when all they want to know is what time it is -- that holding tanks are simply that; holding tanks and if they are properly maintained and properly used, will not be any more noisome as somebody's left-over tuna sandwich in the ice chest. Taking time to pump the tanks, use whatever appropriate chemistry one chooses and even occasionally taking water hose in hand and washing the tank out will keep any septic-related smells out of the boat. Anyone who doubts this is more than welcome to step aboard my boat for an inspection.
Two more Head thoughts............
First, Steve, when you mention that you see no problems with moulded in heads, I am reminded that both my moulded shower sump (which always has a little standing water, since I use my shower daily, or twice daily), and my moulded ice box (which was always a bit damp back when I used ice) experienced gelcoat blistering. Which seems logical. ( No, I did not barrier coat them!) So, I would assume that your holding tank could do the same thing, and that would indicate some absorbtion of head fluids into the laminate. Eventually, of course a blister would burst, and the laminate would be exposed. Sorry, just an unpleasant thought. Thought two is to suggest, once again, my own best contribution to Head plumbing, which is to install a manual diaghram pump (a Whale bilge pump works nicely) in the discharge line. If the head pump clogs from too much whatever (tampons excluded), just give the diaghram pump a few strokes, and, whoooosh, it clears the head pump. I have had a few clogs from truly prodigious offerings, accompanied with almost a full bowl of toilet paper, but the Whale has always been able to suck stuff through. Sometimes one has to both "push" as well as "pull", but I have absolutely no worries about guests, or TP. Plus, when the time comes to break everything down for maintenance, the Whale makes it a lot easier to get things cleared and cleaned up before starting this process. I will keep my other little plumbing wrinkle to myself, this time, since I almost started a riot last time I threw it out there
!!! By the way, Peggie, our entire office got hit by a computer virus which resulted in the loss of all of our email address books, which accounts for the lack of my communication. Can you re-send?
First, Steve, when you mention that you see no problems with moulded in heads, I am reminded that both my moulded shower sump (which always has a little standing water, since I use my shower daily, or twice daily), and my moulded ice box (which was always a bit damp back when I used ice) experienced gelcoat blistering. Which seems logical. ( No, I did not barrier coat them!) So, I would assume that your holding tank could do the same thing, and that would indicate some absorbtion of head fluids into the laminate. Eventually, of course a blister would burst, and the laminate would be exposed. Sorry, just an unpleasant thought. Thought two is to suggest, once again, my own best contribution to Head plumbing, which is to install a manual diaghram pump (a Whale bilge pump works nicely) in the discharge line. If the head pump clogs from too much whatever (tampons excluded), just give the diaghram pump a few strokes, and, whoooosh, it clears the head pump. I have had a few clogs from truly prodigious offerings, accompanied with almost a full bowl of toilet paper, but the Whale has always been able to suck stuff through. Sometimes one has to both "push" as well as "pull", but I have absolutely no worries about guests, or TP. Plus, when the time comes to break everything down for maintenance, the Whale makes it a lot easier to get things cleared and cleaned up before starting this process. I will keep my other little plumbing wrinkle to myself, this time, since I almost started a riot last time I threw it out there
!!! By the way, Peggie, our entire office got hit by a computer virus which resulted in the loss of all of our email address books, which accounts for the lack of my communication. Can you re-send?Tim, I don't disagree!
Tim: I don't disagree. It is just that we replaced all of our hoses over 8 years ago and the only time we have had any problem with odor was when the joker valve goes bad. Other than that, no head odor. (Just call us lucky!)
Tim: I don't disagree. It is just that we replaced all of our hoses over 8 years ago and the only time we have had any problem with odor was when the joker valve goes bad. Other than that, no head odor. (Just call us lucky!)
Not waste water treatment at all...
I don't doubt your credentials as a wastewater treatment expert, but this has nothing to do with treatment, only with management. Yes...a holding tank is only storage. But unless the contents ARE managed, problems develop. Anyone who's ever taken basic high school organic chemistry knows that organic matter is organic matter, whether it's in a holding tank, a compost pile, a pond, a swamp, or a goldfish tank...the same principles apply: when organic matter breaks down aerobically, it doesn't stink. When it breaks down anaerobically, it does. When it can't break down at all, if it's in water it can only dissolve into sediment--sludge. Unfortunately, too many people tend to equate a holding tank with a septic tank...which doesn't work because septic tanks are odorless only as long as they're still...even the slightest disturbance releases noxious gasses. But a still system on a boat impossible, so the tank has to have more in common with a bait well or fish tank than a septic tank...it has to be aerobic, or what comes out the vent line with each flush is enough to knock anyone within 50' off their feet. Odor-free management of stored waste hardly equates with "how to make watch"...it's a simple matter of shorter, straighter, larger diameter vent lines on tanks, and using products that promote oxygen release instead of killing the bacteria necessary to keep the tank alive and functioning. I don't have any wastewater treatment licenses, but I do have more than 15 years experience in marine sanitation, a major portion of which has been devoted to solving odor problems on boats...which is why Phil pays me -0- buck$ to hang out here to do it. However, no one is forcing you or anyone else to take my advice...it's your boat...whatever floats it for you is fine with me.
I don't doubt your credentials as a wastewater treatment expert, but this has nothing to do with treatment, only with management. Yes...a holding tank is only storage. But unless the contents ARE managed, problems develop. Anyone who's ever taken basic high school organic chemistry knows that organic matter is organic matter, whether it's in a holding tank, a compost pile, a pond, a swamp, or a goldfish tank...the same principles apply: when organic matter breaks down aerobically, it doesn't stink. When it breaks down anaerobically, it does. When it can't break down at all, if it's in water it can only dissolve into sediment--sludge. Unfortunately, too many people tend to equate a holding tank with a septic tank...which doesn't work because septic tanks are odorless only as long as they're still...even the slightest disturbance releases noxious gasses. But a still system on a boat impossible, so the tank has to have more in common with a bait well or fish tank than a septic tank...it has to be aerobic, or what comes out the vent line with each flush is enough to knock anyone within 50' off their feet. Odor-free management of stored waste hardly equates with "how to make watch"...it's a simple matter of shorter, straighter, larger diameter vent lines on tanks, and using products that promote oxygen release instead of killing the bacteria necessary to keep the tank alive and functioning. I don't have any wastewater treatment licenses, but I do have more than 15 years experience in marine sanitation, a major portion of which has been devoted to solving odor problems on boats...which is why Phil pays me -0- buck$ to hang out here to do it.
However, no one is forcing you or anyone else to take my advice...it's your boat...whatever floats it for you is fine with me.Smells Sweet with Sealand
We bought our H31 2.5 years ago with a built in Fiberglass holding tank under the V-berth. We spent the first year enduring our smelly v-berth. Last spring before splash I ripped out all the old vinyl hose and replaced with Sealand. I also permanently removed about 15 feet of old vinyl smelly sanitation hose from the direct discharge portion of the system including the vented loop, the pump, and Y valve, and old (unsafe) gate valve used for the direct discharge portion of the system. Because it isn’t kind or legal to dump in the Chesapeake this portion of the system has no use other then a sewage fermenter. Therefore I did not replace any of the removed vinyl. Just capped off the discharge thru-hull. I now only have three hoses, head to tank, tank to deck pump out, and a vent line. We have absolutely positively no smell in the boat from our fiberglass V-berth tank. It was all in the hoses. 16' of sealand hose did the whole job. Were right over the bridge in Crab Alley Bay if you want to take a look at how it’s done. Yesterday’s Dream 1985 H31 Hull #31395 webling@pharsight.com
We bought our H31 2.5 years ago with a built in Fiberglass holding tank under the V-berth. We spent the first year enduring our smelly v-berth. Last spring before splash I ripped out all the old vinyl hose and replaced with Sealand. I also permanently removed about 15 feet of old vinyl smelly sanitation hose from the direct discharge portion of the system including the vented loop, the pump, and Y valve, and old (unsafe) gate valve used for the direct discharge portion of the system. Because it isn’t kind or legal to dump in the Chesapeake this portion of the system has no use other then a sewage fermenter. Therefore I did not replace any of the removed vinyl. Just capped off the discharge thru-hull. I now only have three hoses, head to tank, tank to deck pump out, and a vent line. We have absolutely positively no smell in the boat from our fiberglass V-berth tank. It was all in the hoses. 16' of sealand hose did the whole job. Were right over the bridge in Crab Alley Bay if you want to take a look at how it’s done. Yesterday’s Dream 1985 H31 Hull #31395 webling@pharsight.com
Thanks For The Responses!
Thanks to all who responded for taking the time and effort to help. This is great feedback and I'll find it very helpful as I decide how to tackle this project. Nothing can beat hearing from folks with the same Hunter model and sharing their experience. I also took the time yesterday to read the articles by Peggy Hall in the Head Mistress forum. There's a lot of information there, a great resource. Laura Bertran
Thanks to all who responded for taking the time and effort to help. This is great feedback and I'll find it very helpful as I decide how to tackle this project. Nothing can beat hearing from folks with the same Hunter model and sharing their experience. I also took the time yesterday to read the articles by Peggy Hall in the Head Mistress forum. There's a lot of information there, a great resource. Laura Bertran
holding tank
I bought a 84 31' and I could not get rid of the smell. I replaced all the hoses in the system, that got rid of the smell, they stunk just setting outside on the dock. I open up the port hole once a year and blast it out real good and I try to use fresh water from the shower head to put in the toilet to flush, I installed a fresh water hook up to make it easier to do that.
I bought a 84 31' and I could not get rid of the smell. I replaced all the hoses in the system, that got rid of the smell, they stunk just setting outside on the dock. I open up the port hole once a year and blast it out real good and I try to use fresh water from the shower head to put in the toilet to flush, I installed a fresh water hook up to make it easier to do that.
Been there/done that - and will never go back!
We also expierenced the same "rotten" situation on our 1986-31'. The baked in ordor is still showing up on items I removed from the boat and have stored in my basement or tool box! We replaced the hoses two years ago with another WM brand and they lasted about four weeks, and again we were back in the "let the boat air out" mode. I would like to offer another solution which will not be popular on this page although this will work, period. I again installed new hoses (SeaLand) and plugged the ends for the next owner of my boat. We purchased a $70 (about the price of the hose not counting the four hours it takes to install on a 31') porti-pot. Each trip, and if the device was used, I pick the thing up and walk to the mens room and in five minutes no more problems, period. The SeaLand product is most likely the best solution to using the holding tank/head, although sailing in rough water in an old boat carring 15 gal of human waste with mechanical joints and flexiable pipe maby asking for it. Good luck.
We also expierenced the same "rotten" situation on our 1986-31'. The baked in ordor is still showing up on items I removed from the boat and have stored in my basement or tool box! We replaced the hoses two years ago with another WM brand and they lasted about four weeks, and again we were back in the "let the boat air out" mode. I would like to offer another solution which will not be popular on this page although this will work, period. I again installed new hoses (SeaLand) and plugged the ends for the next owner of my boat. We purchased a $70 (about the price of the hose not counting the four hours it takes to install on a 31') porti-pot. Each trip, and if the device was used, I pick the thing up and walk to the mens room and in five minutes no more problems, period. The SeaLand product is most likely the best solution to using the holding tank/head, although sailing in rough water in an old boat carring 15 gal of human waste with mechanical joints and flexiable pipe maby asking for it. Good luck.
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