I've checked the Archives and I can't seem to find too much information on this subject(probably searched for the wrong terms), but I'm wondering if it's possible to use a 100 hank on jib while my 150 Genny is furled? I noticed one post talked about a thing called "Kiwi Slide" but that requires me to remove my furled Genny and run the 100 jib up the foil using the Kiwi Slides. To avoid dropping the Genny, could I setup an auxiliary head stay & halyard for the Hank-on, is it worth it or will the Genny work okay, reefed to 100? The Genny does have a foam luff, or I should say, *will* have a foam luff(coming in late July). Thanks, -Sean
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reefed to 100% is almost as good
i have reefed my 150 genny on my catalina 30 to approx 100% many times with no problem at all. I'm sure lots of others experiences will differ and some will point out the diff. using a calculator and all sorts of formulas. The point is, if you have to reef your genny, you are probably still going to be at theoretical hull speed or more so i dont think a 100 hanked on will perform noticably better. then again, all boats handle differently.
i have reefed my 150 genny on my catalina 30 to approx 100% many times with no problem at all. I'm sure lots of others experiences will differ and some will point out the diff. using a calculator and all sorts of formulas. The point is, if you have to reef your genny, you are probably still going to be at theoretical hull speed or more so i dont think a 100 hanked on will perform noticably better. then again, all boats handle differently.
Agreed...
though that is pretty close to, if not past, the limit for a 150. That represents a 33% reef in the sail. If you do that, be sure to move your sheet blocks forward quite a bit to compensate for the change. If you have to reef it down that much, you aren't usually worried about getting that last 10th of a knot out of the boat, and are much more concerned with keeping the her balanced and comfortable. I find that going from 150 to about 120 makes a huge difference and that is usually sufficient for the waters where I sail.
though that is pretty close to, if not past, the limit for a 150. That represents a 33% reef in the sail. If you do that, be sure to move your sheet blocks forward quite a bit to compensate for the change. If you have to reef it down that much, you aren't usually worried about getting that last 10th of a knot out of the boat, and are much more concerned with keeping the her balanced and comfortable. I find that going from 150 to about 120 makes a huge difference and that is usually sufficient for the waters where I sail.
If you already have ....
...a double grove luff, then you will have an easy time of hoisting the jib with the 150 flying. You can then tack and drop the 150 inside the jib and onto the deck. The jib will keep the 150 contained. As Bob suggests, it is very important to move the genoa cars forward to give the correct lead angle. A partially furled 150 will have a terrible time beating, whereas a non furled 100 will be much more manageable and have a lower CE.
...a double grove luff, then you will have an easy time of hoisting the jib with the 150 flying. You can then tack and drop the 150 inside the jib and onto the deck. The jib will keep the 150 contained. As Bob suggests, it is very important to move the genoa cars forward to give the correct lead angle. A partially furled 150 will have a terrible time beating, whereas a non furled 100 will be much more manageable and have a lower CE.
Stearn Twinstay One - double groove luff
Thanks for the info Tonyb & Bob, I guess I just need to first get it, then try it out and see how she goes. I'll definitely have adjustable tracks setup beforehand to adjust the angle of the gen sheets. That's my next project along with everything else! Alan, are you talking about something like the Stearn Twinstay One? Is this something that would work hand in hand with my furler, Schaefer 700? It sounds like it's the extrusion that has the two grooves that gets replaced, right? Do you use this yourself? Is it really worth while? -Sean
Thanks for the info Tonyb & Bob, I guess I just need to first get it, then try it out and see how she goes. I'll definitely have adjustable tracks setup beforehand to adjust the angle of the gen sheets. That's my next project along with everything else! Alan, are you talking about something like the Stearn Twinstay One? Is this something that would work hand in hand with my furler, Schaefer 700? It sounds like it's the extrusion that has the two grooves that gets replaced, right? Do you use this yourself? Is it really worth while? -Sean
I have a 150
furling genoa with a foam luff on my Hunter 28.5. While conventional wisdom suggests that you can only furl such a sail about 30 per cent and still get performance, my experience suggests otherwise: I have frequently furled this sail in a blow up about half or more of its size and still get decent performance out it. With the wind up, a furling sail will furl quite tightly and the foam luff really helps keep some shape. Moreover, in high winds the shape hardly matters much. If you furl up the sail to fit the conditions, and move the sheet leads accordingly, you should do fine. Adding another forestay in order to fly a hanked on sail doesn't make much sense to me. It would seem more worthwhile to explore the costs of having the hanks removed and luff tape added as that would give you the option of raising that sail in your current furler foil or if you have a twin groove extrusion to drop one sail and run the other up.
furling genoa with a foam luff on my Hunter 28.5. While conventional wisdom suggests that you can only furl such a sail about 30 per cent and still get performance, my experience suggests otherwise: I have frequently furled this sail in a blow up about half or more of its size and still get decent performance out it. With the wind up, a furling sail will furl quite tightly and the foam luff really helps keep some shape. Moreover, in high winds the shape hardly matters much. If you furl up the sail to fit the conditions, and move the sheet leads accordingly, you should do fine. Adding another forestay in order to fly a hanked on sail doesn't make much sense to me. It would seem more worthwhile to explore the costs of having the hanks removed and luff tape added as that would give you the option of raising that sail in your current furler foil or if you have a twin groove extrusion to drop one sail and run the other up.
Another possibility is the Gale Sail
ATN have created the Gale sail which is hanked on using collars around your roller furled genoa. It is intended for strong winds so the area is quite small. It sounds like a good idea and reports I have heard (2 people) seem to be positive. One thing to note is that it is smaller that a 100% jib. See link below for more information.
ATN have created the Gale sail which is hanked on using collars around your roller furled genoa. It is intended for strong winds so the area is quite small. It sounds like a good idea and reports I have heard (2 people) seem to be positive. One thing to note is that it is smaller that a 100% jib. See link below for more information.
150 Genny
Thanks Warren, this makes me feel better. I had heard the same comments regarding only being able to reef 30% and I was wondering if I had limited myself with this big sail. Your comments plus the previous ones makes me feel much better on my decision to go with the 150 instead of the 135. Malcolm, I looked at ATN's video and they seem to have a couple of good products. When I'm ready for a storm jib I'll take a look at the Gail Sail, it could be worth it.(it's a little on the pricey side though) Thanks again, -Sean
Thanks Warren, this makes me feel better. I had heard the same comments regarding only being able to reef 30% and I was wondering if I had limited myself with this big sail. Your comments plus the previous ones makes me feel much better on my decision to go with the 150 instead of the 135. Malcolm, I looked at ATN's video and they seem to have a couple of good products. When I'm ready for a storm jib I'll take a look at the Gail Sail, it could be worth it.(it's a little on the pricey side though) Thanks again, -Sean
sean....I don't think that's the system
Alan had in mind. Most of the top line furling systems - Profurl, Harken, Shaeffer, etc. come with a twin grooved foil that allows a more effecient sail change as Alan described. Many cruisers and daysailors NEVER remove their headsails and, therefore, have no idea whether they have a twin groove system. If I were you I would practice removing your headsail, whether you plan to do it often or not, so you can inspect the foil and develop a system for changing a sail. The big issue with dropping a luff tape sail versus a hank on it needs to be tended so it won't slip off the deck. Converting your working jib to luff tape will cost about six bucks a foot to remove the hanks and sew in the tape. If you decide to buy the 150, you should at least be able to change it when conditions are obvious enough to go out with a smaller sail rigged, which you can rig at the dock. If you sail in conditions where you may have to reef a number of times per day, I would choose the 135 and add a gennaker or other type of light air reaching sail later. I think the 135 is a better all round sail than a 150. If you sail in conditions where you only reef occasionally (such as San Diego) then I would definitely go with the 150. Then I'd convert the jib for heavier air days knowing I could reef it down to 70 percent if needed.
Alan had in mind. Most of the top line furling systems - Profurl, Harken, Shaeffer, etc. come with a twin grooved foil that allows a more effecient sail change as Alan described. Many cruisers and daysailors NEVER remove their headsails and, therefore, have no idea whether they have a twin groove system. If I were you I would practice removing your headsail, whether you plan to do it often or not, so you can inspect the foil and develop a system for changing a sail. The big issue with dropping a luff tape sail versus a hank on it needs to be tended so it won't slip off the deck. Converting your working jib to luff tape will cost about six bucks a foot to remove the hanks and sew in the tape. If you decide to buy the 150, you should at least be able to change it when conditions are obvious enough to go out with a smaller sail rigged, which you can rig at the dock. If you sail in conditions where you may have to reef a number of times per day, I would choose the 135 and add a gennaker or other type of light air reaching sail later. I think the 135 is a better all round sail than a 150. If you sail in conditions where you only reef occasionally (such as San Diego) then I would definitely go with the 150. Then I'd convert the jib for heavier air days knowing I could reef it down to 70 percent if needed.
No Sock
WHEN you get your roller furling, i would strongly advise that you have a sailmaker sew in the sacrificial tape as opposed to a sock. In addition to making a horrendous noise when a squall passes by at the marina, the socks have a tendency of beating themselves to death. Thus , no longevity. Besides, its nice to just furl at the end of the day and be done with it. And yes, it does cost more, but you wont be sorry. Look around the marina and see that most if not all use the sacrificial cloth. As a general statement, the bulk of the population knows what they are doing.
WHEN you get your roller furling, i would strongly advise that you have a sailmaker sew in the sacrificial tape as opposed to a sock. In addition to making a horrendous noise when a squall passes by at the marina, the socks have a tendency of beating themselves to death. Thus , no longevity. Besides, its nice to just furl at the end of the day and be done with it. And yes, it does cost more, but you wont be sorry. Look around the marina and see that most if not all use the sacrificial cloth. As a general statement, the bulk of the population knows what they are doing.
No Sock - Double Groove Extrusion
Hi Tonyb, I already ordered her with the Sunbrella UV protective tape. I figured if I'm getting a brand new sail, it should be done right! ..and it didn't cost that much for everything, considering what Marine gear costs. I was thinking of having them install a tell tale window, but the manufacturer recommended against that, due to fogging...?? So this is what I got, a Coastal 150, 5 ounce dacron with a #5 tape for my Schaefer Snap Furl, Foam Luff, Draft Stripes, Sunbrella UV tape, Tell Tales, and a partridge in a pear tree.
Joe, I have to check my extrusion, I'm not sure if it is double grooved, I'll let you know. I'm hoping though that I won't really need to drop the 150 all that often. I don't really plan on racing her, so it's not a big deal if I loose a fraction of a knot, but you're right, I will practice at the docs, taking her down and making sure that I feel comfortable doing it. I’ll also check into converting my jib, $6 a foot isn’t too bad, we’ll see. Thanks, -Sean
Hi Tonyb, I already ordered her with the Sunbrella UV protective tape. I figured if I'm getting a brand new sail, it should be done right! ..and it didn't cost that much for everything, considering what Marine gear costs. I was thinking of having them install a tell tale window, but the manufacturer recommended against that, due to fogging...?? So this is what I got, a Coastal 150, 5 ounce dacron with a #5 tape for my Schaefer Snap Furl, Foam Luff, Draft Stripes, Sunbrella UV tape, Tell Tales, and a partridge in a pear tree.
Joe, I have to check my extrusion, I'm not sure if it is double grooved, I'll let you know. I'm hoping though that I won't really need to drop the 150 all that often. I don't really plan on racing her, so it's not a big deal if I loose a fraction of a knot, but you're right, I will practice at the docs, taking her down and making sure that I feel comfortable doing it. I’ll also check into converting my jib, $6 a foot isn’t too bad, we’ll see. Thanks, -Sean
Sock it to me
I use a sock and I think it is the way to go. Yes it does take a few minutes to put it on but it provides the ultimate protection and, importantly, you don't have some funky non-sail material on your genny. I will take the extra few minutes for the better performance and extended sail life.
I use a sock and I think it is the way to go. Yes it does take a few minutes to put it on but it provides the ultimate protection and, importantly, you don't have some funky non-sail material on your genny. I will take the extra few minutes for the better performance and extended sail life.
On the other hand .....
….. a friend has a detachable inner forestay he uses for a hank on sail. He says that in a blow, with the main reefed and his inner stay / hank on system, he reduces sail and the center of effort quickly and safely. He feels furling a few wraps will do in a pinch, but it actually raises the center of gravity on his bow. Later, eh! Ferg
….. a friend has a detachable inner forestay he uses for a hank on sail. He says that in a blow, with the main reefed and his inner stay / hank on system, he reduces sail and the center of effort quickly and safely. He feels furling a few wraps will do in a pinch, but it actually raises the center of gravity on his bow. Later, eh! Ferg
Just a couple of points
Ferg is right. Furling a 150 is going to raise your CE and that is the wrong thing in a blow. Also, someone mentioned furling a 150 more than 30% and it didn't mean that much to performance. This is very wrong. A 50% furled 150, aside from the now very high CE and clew, doesn't point worth a damn. If you are running then this is no issue, in fact you probably didn't need to reef. But on a beat in big air I would not expect to be able to make much headway with a large genoa furled 50%. The sails entry will be very sloppy and the unsupported loads could easily destroy your sail. Also the boats leeway will increase, further diminishing your headway.
Ferg is right. Furling a 150 is going to raise your CE and that is the wrong thing in a blow. Also, someone mentioned furling a 150 more than 30% and it didn't mean that much to performance. This is very wrong. A 50% furled 150, aside from the now very high CE and clew, doesn't point worth a damn. If you are running then this is no issue, in fact you probably didn't need to reef. But on a beat in big air I would not expect to be able to make much headway with a large genoa furled 50%. The sails entry will be very sloppy and the unsupported loads could easily destroy your sail. Also the boats leeway will increase, further diminishing your headway.
Alan !!!
Some of us mentioned the positive side of a 150 roller furling from our own experiences on our own boats. Are you talking about your experiences on your own boat because it sounds like you are talking theoretical about what you would expect to happen as opposed to what actually happened. If it is from your experience, tell us what boat you have so that the original poster and others here would better be able to make a decision
Some of us mentioned the positive side of a 150 roller furling from our own experiences on our own boats. Are you talking about your experiences on your own boat because it sounds like you are talking theoretical about what you would expect to happen as opposed to what actually happened. If it is from your experience, tell us what boat you have so that the original poster and others here would better be able to make a decision
sailortonyb, I gotta back Alan!
The boats I know of don’t point nearly as well with a partially rolled headsail. Air doesn’t stream as neatly over the rolled up lump . I’m sure while trying to point up with even a few wraps on the foil you’ve noticed a sloppy luff and your clew is noticeably higher. This should alert you to higher CE and more lateral drift as well. Later, eh…. Ferg
The boats I know of don’t point nearly as well with a partially rolled headsail. Air doesn’t stream as neatly over the rolled up lump . I’m sure while trying to point up with even a few wraps on the foil you’ve noticed a sloppy luff and your clew is noticeably higher. This should alert you to higher CE and more lateral drift as well. Later, eh…. Ferg
All i can say is..
All i can say is that on my Catalina 30, in 25K wind, i need to furl my 150 Jib down to about 100 0r so and sometimes 1 reef in my main and still sail in my intended direction at or exceeding hull speed. What more could i want? Im sure different boats will certainly perforn differently. I think it would be advantageous if the post were to mention which boat he/she has and also the replies should do the same. A statement that holds true for a MacGregor 25 will most likely not be reasonable for an Irwin 52. All can reply to help the originator make a decision, but at least he/she would know what the differences in sizes and experiences are. A little over a year ago, i took my first solo trip in my Catalina 30. It was a coastal trip about 700 mile round trip. All i can say is............the work and skill involved is sooooooooooo different than when with another person. Simple things like anchoring and raising the anchor wothout someone at the wheel requires some forethought. The more information we give, the more helpful it will be. Sometimes "Mo' is betta"
All i can say is that on my Catalina 30, in 25K wind, i need to furl my 150 Jib down to about 100 0r so and sometimes 1 reef in my main and still sail in my intended direction at or exceeding hull speed. What more could i want? Im sure different boats will certainly perforn differently. I think it would be advantageous if the post were to mention which boat he/she has and also the replies should do the same. A statement that holds true for a MacGregor 25 will most likely not be reasonable for an Irwin 52. All can reply to help the originator make a decision, but at least he/she would know what the differences in sizes and experiences are. A little over a year ago, i took my first solo trip in my Catalina 30. It was a coastal trip about 700 mile round trip. All i can say is............the work and skill involved is sooooooooooo different than when with another person. Simple things like anchoring and raising the anchor wothout someone at the wheel requires some forethought. The more information we give, the more helpful it will be. Sometimes "Mo' is betta"
Doubled forestay
Did see a boat with forestays off set and the skipper used his traditional hank jib more than the furl. a hank on is a better performing sail.
Did see a boat with forestays off set and the skipper used his traditional hank jib more than the furl. a hank on is a better performing sail.
Snapfurls ...
Snapfurls have single groves. Usually recommended for boats no larger that 26 feet or so. At that size, adding a second stay for a hank on sail does not make sense to me. The biggest problem with multiple stays forward is getting and keeping proper tension on the stays. A cutter rig with a forestay to the masthead and an inner stay that is fractional with running backstays to hold the tension is a time proven system. Converting a sub 26 foot boat to a proper cutter is not cost effective in my opinion. On boats in this size range, a 150% that will roller reef to about 125% or so and two reefs in the main should handle any weather that the boat should be out in. One of the nice things about reefing the main rather than changing down on the headsail is that it moves the CE forward. Moving the CE forward helps to reduce the weather helm due to heel in a breeze.
Snapfurls have single groves. Usually recommended for boats no larger that 26 feet or so. At that size, adding a second stay for a hank on sail does not make sense to me. The biggest problem with multiple stays forward is getting and keeping proper tension on the stays. A cutter rig with a forestay to the masthead and an inner stay that is fractional with running backstays to hold the tension is a time proven system. Converting a sub 26 foot boat to a proper cutter is not cost effective in my opinion. On boats in this size range, a 150% that will roller reef to about 125% or so and two reefs in the main should handle any weather that the boat should be out in. One of the nice things about reefing the main rather than changing down on the headsail is that it moves the CE forward. Moving the CE forward helps to reduce the weather helm due to heel in a breeze.
Mac 26S - Great Stuff, thanks guys
I'm sorry all, I should have been more specific with the details. You're right each boat has different characteristics and how they handle a 150 genny. The Cousin Larrrrry is a 1990 Mac 26S. I'm hoping with the snap furl by Schaefer and this new coastal 150, I'll be able to single hand the boat as much as possible with out too much trouble. Sometimes it's just too difficult making my schedule work with others, so I can't count on crew all the time. So everything I'm doing to the boat is to be able to single hand her. When I got her, she was stock. There were no add-ons, so I'm adding the furler, a traveler, deck organizers, stern rail that I got some help with here, bimini, jiffy reef for main, solar panels and all the rest of the trimmings. Thanks again for all your feedback. This stuff is invaluable for someone just getting into the world of sailing! -Sean
I'm sorry all, I should have been more specific with the details. You're right each boat has different characteristics and how they handle a 150 genny. The Cousin Larrrrry is a 1990 Mac 26S. I'm hoping with the snap furl by Schaefer and this new coastal 150, I'll be able to single hand the boat as much as possible with out too much trouble. Sometimes it's just too difficult making my schedule work with others, so I can't count on crew all the time. So everything I'm doing to the boat is to be able to single hand her. When I got her, she was stock. There were no add-ons, so I'm adding the furler, a traveler, deck organizers, stern rail that I got some help with here, bimini, jiffy reef for main, solar panels and all the rest of the trimmings. Thanks again for all your feedback. This stuff is invaluable for someone just getting into the world of sailing! -Sean
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