Is there better value in the purchase of a high quality boat like a used Swan? Production vessels like Beneteau, Hunter and Catalina etc. are all fine boats, but what about the so called better quality ones? We are considering long term, long distance sailing and thinking that something more robust would be a possible consideration. They cost more than production boats, so is there better value? Any comments would be appreciated...
Used Swan vs Production Boats
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No brainer
Try to find a cheap Pacific Seacraft, Hinckley, Swan or other quality boat. The integrity they were built with doesn't disappear and they are very much in demand, despite age and wear. Private owners and charter fleets look for practicality, economy and glitz; racers want speed without weight; cruisers start with durability. Even designers say these aspects are often mutually exclusive, or trade-offs at best.
Try to find a cheap Pacific Seacraft, Hinckley, Swan or other quality boat. The integrity they were built with doesn't disappear and they are very much in demand, despite age and wear. Private owners and charter fleets look for practicality, economy and glitz; racers want speed without weight; cruisers start with durability. Even designers say these aspects are often mutually exclusive, or trade-offs at best.
Hidden Costs
Certain things need to be considered. Rigging, sails, electrical systems, winches, tanks, plumbing, blisters, upholstery, etc. Those things don't respect price tags. Point is, you'll put money in an old boat or pay a premium for one continually upgraded. And, like any boat, some of those system manufacturers will be out of production, parts hard to get, etc. Of course, you will have the satisfaction of owning a distinctive craft. Just know what you are getting into. Your resale may be better as a percentage of purchase cost, but you are not likely to get away without some material investment. I looked at some several times in my ownership history and was, frankly, disappointed in what I saw. Rick D.
Certain things need to be considered. Rigging, sails, electrical systems, winches, tanks, plumbing, blisters, upholstery, etc. Those things don't respect price tags. Point is, you'll put money in an old boat or pay a premium for one continually upgraded. And, like any boat, some of those system manufacturers will be out of production, parts hard to get, etc. Of course, you will have the satisfaction of owning a distinctive craft. Just know what you are getting into. Your resale may be better as a percentage of purchase cost, but you are not likely to get away without some material investment. I looked at some several times in my ownership history and was, frankly, disappointed in what I saw. Rick D.
Size, features raise cost by orders of magnitude
The prestige brands have lots of amenities, but these can be terrifyingly costly to repair or replace; and there is no reason to believe the complex systems on these brands will be less prone to breakdown than those on humbler marques. The first order of financial magnitude on a used boat is size: the rigging and deck hardware needed on a 50-foot sloop is much more costly than the hardware needed to run smaller boats. If you could afford a used 50-footer are you able to absorb the cost of replacing one of its winches should one fail? Some of the primaries on larger boats may be $5000-$25000 items. A broken boom may be a $15000 rather than a $2000 item. And you can't operate the boat properly without them. The second order of financial magnitude comes with the complex systems used on "premium" boats such as your Swans and Hinckleys. Are you ready to pay the cost of troubleshooting a heating/ac system? An electric head with macerator? a beefy electric windlass? A commercial-type radar unit? A complex antenna array built into a mast that may not be handled properly by your boat yard? There are plenty of people who can afford premium and larger yachts, but if you're looking for a used boat then cost must matter to some extent and you want to make your decision with an eye to the possible real expense of owning one of these when parts need replacing.
The prestige brands have lots of amenities, but these can be terrifyingly costly to repair or replace; and there is no reason to believe the complex systems on these brands will be less prone to breakdown than those on humbler marques. The first order of financial magnitude on a used boat is size: the rigging and deck hardware needed on a 50-foot sloop is much more costly than the hardware needed to run smaller boats. If you could afford a used 50-footer are you able to absorb the cost of replacing one of its winches should one fail? Some of the primaries on larger boats may be $5000-$25000 items. A broken boom may be a $15000 rather than a $2000 item. And you can't operate the boat properly without them. The second order of financial magnitude comes with the complex systems used on "premium" boats such as your Swans and Hinckleys. Are you ready to pay the cost of troubleshooting a heating/ac system? An electric head with macerator? a beefy electric windlass? A commercial-type radar unit? A complex antenna array built into a mast that may not be handled properly by your boat yard? There are plenty of people who can afford premium and larger yachts, but if you're looking for a used boat then cost must matter to some extent and you want to make your decision with an eye to the possible real expense of owning one of these when parts need replacing.
Hull and mast
1. Remember if you are buying an older boat you are buying the hull, mast and boom hopefully. If the electronics, sails, and standing and running rigging cannot be documented to have been replaced in the last year or 2. You must assume they can fail at any time. That means the standing rigging at a minimum must be replaced before going offshore. Last fall we had older boats in slips on either side of us in Bermuda that had suffered standing rigging failures in the ocean. This is not for me. 2. If you are not loaded $$, be sure you are into this and have as much time as you think you do. I was going to buy a $200k boat with partners a few years ago. We ended up buying a 1980 Lancer 36 in excellent condition for 32K. We love the boat and have put some money in it. However, the main thing is how little time I found I have to use it and can round up at least one crew. If I had a big mortgage and was not using the boat more I would be mad as ##!!XX. 3. Remember in the last 10 years or less that boats of a given length have gotten a lot roomier inside. if you want the room you may have to pay a fair bit for a more top end boat of recent vintage. 4. There is no right answer to the question!!
1. Remember if you are buying an older boat you are buying the hull, mast and boom hopefully. If the electronics, sails, and standing and running rigging cannot be documented to have been replaced in the last year or 2. You must assume they can fail at any time. That means the standing rigging at a minimum must be replaced before going offshore. Last fall we had older boats in slips on either side of us in Bermuda that had suffered standing rigging failures in the ocean. This is not for me. 2. If you are not loaded $$, be sure you are into this and have as much time as you think you do. I was going to buy a $200k boat with partners a few years ago. We ended up buying a 1980 Lancer 36 in excellent condition for 32K. We love the boat and have put some money in it. However, the main thing is how little time I found I have to use it and can round up at least one crew. If I had a big mortgage and was not using the boat more I would be mad as ##!!XX. 3. Remember in the last 10 years or less that boats of a given length have gotten a lot roomier inside. if you want the room you may have to pay a fair bit for a more top end boat of recent vintage. 4. There is no right answer to the question!!
One more thing to think about...
This may sound overly simplistic, but my issue with the "premium" boats boils down to... Teak! Older Hinckleys and Swans, Halberg-Rasseys, etc. are covered with the stuff! I'll never buy my beloved Tartan until they get that stuff off the deck. If you're going cruising for the rest of your life, I suppose you'll have time to sand and varnish, then varnish some more. Or maybe you're rich and can pay a detailer. Neither applies to me. I'll take a Huntalinabeneteau over a Hinckley or Swan any time. Paul sv Escape Artist h336
This may sound overly simplistic, but my issue with the "premium" boats boils down to... Teak! Older Hinckleys and Swans, Halberg-Rasseys, etc. are covered with the stuff! I'll never buy my beloved Tartan until they get that stuff off the deck. If you're going cruising for the rest of your life, I suppose you'll have time to sand and varnish, then varnish some more. Or maybe you're rich and can pay a detailer. Neither applies to me. I'll take a Huntalinabeneteau over a Hinckley or Swan any time. Paul sv Escape Artist h336
wife factor
Paul, that was my plan exactly. I had $200k to spend on a boat, and searched for the best used Swan I could find for the better part of a year. Every time I found the perfect boat, however, the wife went aboard, wrinkled her nose and said something to the effect that it was too dark, or it stank, or the decks needed to be replaced.... You get the drift. Then, she walked into a new Hunter 410, took one look at the galley and how light the boat was below, and insisted I purchase one immediately.
Paul, that was my plan exactly. I had $200k to spend on a boat, and searched for the best used Swan I could find for the better part of a year. Every time I found the perfect boat, however, the wife went aboard, wrinkled her nose and said something to the effect that it was too dark, or it stank, or the decks needed to be replaced.... You get the drift. Then, she walked into a new Hunter 410, took one look at the galley and how light the boat was below, and insisted I purchase one immediately.
Examine the Market
High end boats retain their value especially if you obtain a used vessel. Huntalinas on the other hand don't. If you have money to burn that may not matter
High end boats retain their value especially if you obtain a used vessel. Huntalinas on the other hand don't. If you have money to burn that may not matter
Daryl, in lots of cases you might be correct
but not in all cases. Obviously it depends on the boat and the year. Typically, the first year with a brand new boat will be the worst, but lots of boats actually hit a point where they level off. I do know quite a few people that picked up different vintages of their Catalina 36's and was able to sell them years later for what they spent (or more depending on upgrades). The most they were out was the interest for thier money on the boat and general maintenance. Not bad for years of boat ownership. I know not all boats are like this, and this pertains to all but brand new boats. I don't think you could ever get all your money back on brand new.
but not in all cases. Obviously it depends on the boat and the year. Typically, the first year with a brand new boat will be the worst, but lots of boats actually hit a point where they level off. I do know quite a few people that picked up different vintages of their Catalina 36's and was able to sell them years later for what they spent (or more depending on upgrades). The most they were out was the interest for thier money on the boat and general maintenance. Not bad for years of boat ownership. I know not all boats are like this, and this pertains to all but brand new boats. I don't think you could ever get all your money back on brand new.
Value is in the eye of the beholder
I woudln't want a swan - even if I could afford one. (Don't like the fact it is a balsa cored hull, don't like the companion way ladder, do like the fact that the hatches open forward and back (an issue in cold climates I guess), and I have sailed against them, and don't find them all that fast. Also, my '79 Cherubini Hunter cost a lot less - even after everything I put into it - and I don't need a boat that will sail to Figi, since I wouldn't go anyway. I have an island hopper, that fits me (fits my sailing, and my budget). And when I want to make a change - cockpit speakers, electrical panel, instrument layout, etc. I am not intimidated about making the change. I would be with a Swan or Oyster or someother. (I have just enough teak to look good, not enough to be a nightmare. Friends spend most of their time working on brightwork. Mine gets cetol gloss once a year.) The real message is what sailing are you going to do? What can you afford? What do you like? You can put up with a lot of sanding if you really like your boat (I am told - I don't do much sanding). Other options: Allied, Morgans - not only the out-islands. Bristols are medium pricy. Get a copy of "Practical Boat Buying" (an oxymoron if there ever was one) from Practical Sailor.
I woudln't want a swan - even if I could afford one. (Don't like the fact it is a balsa cored hull, don't like the companion way ladder, do like the fact that the hatches open forward and back (an issue in cold climates I guess), and I have sailed against them, and don't find them all that fast. Also, my '79 Cherubini Hunter cost a lot less - even after everything I put into it - and I don't need a boat that will sail to Figi, since I wouldn't go anyway. I have an island hopper, that fits me (fits my sailing, and my budget). And when I want to make a change - cockpit speakers, electrical panel, instrument layout, etc. I am not intimidated about making the change. I would be with a Swan or Oyster or someother. (I have just enough teak to look good, not enough to be a nightmare. Friends spend most of their time working on brightwork. Mine gets cetol gloss once a year.) The real message is what sailing are you going to do? What can you afford? What do you like? You can put up with a lot of sanding if you really like your boat (I am told - I don't do much sanding). Other options: Allied, Morgans - not only the out-islands. Bristols are medium pricy. Get a copy of "Practical Boat Buying" (an oxymoron if there ever was one) from Practical Sailor.
re: wife factor
Don't discount this, unless you are planning to sail alone. This is not your (singular) boat. This your (family) boat. Everyone needs to be happy going in - the space is small that anything that rubs the wrong way will be a problem in no time! Take that POV on everything. Both partners need to be able to do all aspects of running the boat - in case of emergency. (Practice those man overboard drills! it may be your life they are trying to save.) Several stories of men who died because their spouses didn't know how to run the boat, the radio, etc. in an emergency were passed around for a while. Yes this does include how to bleed the diesel. No one wants to be a galley slave. People want to sail the boat, dock the boat, own the boat. If it is your boat (singular) you will never take that long-distance cruise. Also, don't insist on being captain - steering the boat and shouting orders, while the wife stuggles with the ground tackle (I can see this almost any weekend around here.) And if you don't both already sail, I submit that you are not the one to do the teaching. Splurge on a class, maybe a women-only class (several are out there).
Don't discount this, unless you are planning to sail alone. This is not your (singular) boat. This your (family) boat. Everyone needs to be happy going in - the space is small that anything that rubs the wrong way will be a problem in no time! Take that POV on everything. Both partners need to be able to do all aspects of running the boat - in case of emergency. (Practice those man overboard drills! it may be your life they are trying to save.) Several stories of men who died because their spouses didn't know how to run the boat, the radio, etc. in an emergency were passed around for a while. Yes this does include how to bleed the diesel. No one wants to be a galley slave. People want to sail the boat, dock the boat, own the boat. If it is your boat (singular) you will never take that long-distance cruise. Also, don't insist on being captain - steering the boat and shouting orders, while the wife stuggles with the ground tackle (I can see this almost any weekend around here.) And if you don't both already sail, I submit that you are not the one to do the teaching. Splurge on a class, maybe a women-only class (several are out there).
balsa core
Deb: Is a Swan truly balsa cored below water line. I think I also heard that Gozzards were cored. I am interested since I own a Lancer 36 which has a cored hull. We got a good buy but know there is a lot of discussion about below water line coring. I guess it would just make me feel better to hear that such top end boats as Swans and Gozzards are cored. Thanks for any info. Tom
Deb: Is a Swan truly balsa cored below water line. I think I also heard that Gozzards were cored. I am interested since I own a Lancer 36 which has a cored hull. We got a good buy but know there is a lot of discussion about below water line coring. I guess it would just make me feel better to hear that such top end boats as Swans and Gozzards are cored. Thanks for any info. Tom
Tom H. Its all in the details
If a cored hull was done with meticulous care and engineering it might be ok, through the years I believe the manufacturers have learned from their past mistakes and perhaps are getting better at this. Still, the problem is that most production boat builders don't take as much care as they should when building these cored Hull boats . Fact is, it costs a lot more money (Not implying one way or the other with Swan, Gozzard or whatever) Even higher end production boats like C&C that made cored hulls have had issues in the past. Years and years of a boat working in a seaway will create tiny or microscopic entry points for water to migrate into the core. Unless it was meticulously done and with the best engineering materials or practices I feel that at some point in the future there will be some wet core. Question is how will that affect the boats integrity.
If a cored hull was done with meticulous care and engineering it might be ok, through the years I believe the manufacturers have learned from their past mistakes and perhaps are getting better at this. Still, the problem is that most production boat builders don't take as much care as they should when building these cored Hull boats . Fact is, it costs a lot more money (Not implying one way or the other with Swan, Gozzard or whatever) Even higher end production boats like C&C that made cored hulls have had issues in the past. Years and years of a boat working in a seaway will create tiny or microscopic entry points for water to migrate into the core. Unless it was meticulously done and with the best engineering materials or practices I feel that at some point in the future there will be some wet core. Question is how will that affect the boats integrity.
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