Hi! I'm considering a H356, so I'd love to hear from H356 owners, but I know this subject is of general interest, so I put it in that category. What is the upwind performance of the H356 with the in-mast the furling-main? Why I ask is I rented a Beneteau 402CC in the BVI a couple of years ago, and the upwind performance was relatively poor. We tacked through about 105 degrees... 100 if you really pinched up and lost boat speed. I'm used to boats doing closer to 90-degrees, so I consider the 402CC a bit of a dog. The problem was the main would luff and depower long before the jib luffed. It seemed like we just could not get it flat enough. Hauling it over with the traveler was not a solution because it would just slow us down, and heal us over even more. So.... should I expect the same with the 356, or has Hunter worked some magic to make this boat better?
- Status
Flat vs. Fat
The new Hunters have a large main and a small jib. The fully battened main has a better shape and more area than a roller furling main and is much more powerful in light air. The roller furling main can be flattened to a greater degree and is better in heavy air and is easier to reef. If you sail in the Long Island Sound or Chesapeake, pick the full batten main but add a Strong Track. If you sail in a heavy air area, pick the roller furler. The Beneteau is a totally different concept and usually has a very small main and a large overlapping jib. I don't understand why you couldn't get a roller furling jib flat. We charter a Hunter 410 and can get the main as flat as a board. Our problem was getting it full to perform in light air.
The new Hunters have a large main and a small jib. The fully battened main has a better shape and more area than a roller furling main and is much more powerful in light air. The roller furling main can be flattened to a greater degree and is better in heavy air and is easier to reef. If you sail in the Long Island Sound or Chesapeake, pick the full batten main but add a Strong Track. If you sail in a heavy air area, pick the roller furler. The Beneteau is a totally different concept and usually has a very small main and a large overlapping jib. I don't understand why you couldn't get a roller furling jib flat. We charter a Hunter 410 and can get the main as flat as a board. Our problem was getting it full to perform in light air.
Couldn't Get Main Flat?
As I read it I think Walt meant he couldn't get the main flat. One common sail problem with roller furling mains that I see around the Sound here is flogging leaches. The problem with a flogging leach is the sail cloth is getting ruined when that is happening and nearly all the solutions appear to impede performance. There has been talk about various types of solutions or work-arounds to avoid this problem and one could find some of these posts in the archives. Due to the rapidly changing technology in this area it might be worthwhile to visit some sail lofts, preferably those that sell furling mains, and talk to them about it. Every loft is probably going to have a different "take" on it. Once a sail has started flogging it becomes increassingly more difficult to prevent future flogging. I assume they have leach adjustments but cranking the tension up will put a cup in the leach further degrading upwind performance. While a charter boat could give an indication of poor upwind performance, in all fairness, there are all kinds of sailors that rent these boats and who knows what was done before you to possibly ruin the sail. All it would take is one "bad week" by someone who didn't know what they were doing to add a years worth of wear-and-tear the the sail. Which brings up another point, the usable life of a furling main appears to be significantly shorter than for a full batten main - and this is an expensive sail (ONLY 3 to 4 boat bucks). Something else to inquire about.
As I read it I think Walt meant he couldn't get the main flat. One common sail problem with roller furling mains that I see around the Sound here is flogging leaches. The problem with a flogging leach is the sail cloth is getting ruined when that is happening and nearly all the solutions appear to impede performance. There has been talk about various types of solutions or work-arounds to avoid this problem and one could find some of these posts in the archives. Due to the rapidly changing technology in this area it might be worthwhile to visit some sail lofts, preferably those that sell furling mains, and talk to them about it. Every loft is probably going to have a different "take" on it. Once a sail has started flogging it becomes increassingly more difficult to prevent future flogging. I assume they have leach adjustments but cranking the tension up will put a cup in the leach further degrading upwind performance. While a charter boat could give an indication of poor upwind performance, in all fairness, there are all kinds of sailors that rent these boats and who knows what was done before you to possibly ruin the sail. All it would take is one "bad week" by someone who didn't know what they were doing to add a years worth of wear-and-tear the the sail. Which brings up another point, the usable life of a furling main appears to be significantly shorter than for a full batten main - and this is an expensive sail (ONLY 3 to 4 boat bucks). Something else to inquire about.
doyle swingbatten main
Walt, go for the 356 but order her without sails! look in the archives for the discussion among us 356 owners over the past year about the lack of power,vibration,poor shape and poor upwind performance with the in mast furling-I decided to do something, and after much research ordered a new Doyle swingbatten main-and after talking to them, and measuring the boat. ordered a new jib as well. There's a picture in the photo archives of my old main on top of the new one-the new one has about 30% more area in a nice roach. Well, for those waiting, last saturday was our first set of the new sails-what a difference! Much better shape, more controllable, and a lot more power! in 12-17 kt winds, we had much less heeling at were moving significantly faster. Best of all, no shaking, no vibration from the bad leech! The jib was also a huge improvement, not only more area but it's got a foam luff that flattens the sail when you reef, keeping a better shape. the final proof came later in the day, wind had dropped to about 8-10 kts,and we were holding our own against a j105 racer with laminate sails! well worth the money, and they'll last a lot longer than the stock "delivery" sails. Since Doyle NE has my measurements, you should be able to order the sails to arrive with your boat.
Walt, go for the 356 but order her without sails! look in the archives for the discussion among us 356 owners over the past year about the lack of power,vibration,poor shape and poor upwind performance with the in mast furling-I decided to do something, and after much research ordered a new Doyle swingbatten main-and after talking to them, and measuring the boat. ordered a new jib as well. There's a picture in the photo archives of my old main on top of the new one-the new one has about 30% more area in a nice roach. Well, for those waiting, last saturday was our first set of the new sails-what a difference! Much better shape, more controllable, and a lot more power! in 12-17 kt winds, we had much less heeling at were moving significantly faster. Best of all, no shaking, no vibration from the bad leech! The jib was also a huge improvement, not only more area but it's got a foam luff that flattens the sail when you reef, keeping a better shape. the final proof came later in the day, wind had dropped to about 8-10 kts,and we were holding our own against a j105 racer with laminate sails! well worth the money, and they'll last a lot longer than the stock "delivery" sails. Since Doyle NE has my measurements, you should be able to order the sails to arrive with your boat.
Vertical battens
I had a vertical batten main built by UK sails for my 410. It has improved performance measurably, both full on and under reefed conditions. My sail was built to very flat specs because of how windy it is here in SF bay, and I can point the main every bit as high as the jib will point. I originally didn't want the OEM sails when I ordered the boat, but let the dealer talk me into buying an upgrade to charter quality sails. A huge mistake.
I had a vertical batten main built by UK sails for my 410. It has improved performance measurably, both full on and under reefed conditions. My sail was built to very flat specs because of how windy it is here in SF bay, and I can point the main every bit as high as the jib will point. I originally didn't want the OEM sails when I ordered the boat, but let the dealer talk me into buying an upgrade to charter quality sails. A huge mistake.
Full batten furling mainsail
Several months ago, I decided to replace the stock furling UK main on my 2000 H460. I checked the Doyle swing batten, the Doyle vertical batten and the UK vertical batten and lastly the Hood Full batten vertical main. The vertical batten main adds back roach lost due to the cut of the furling main. In fact the standard furling main has a hollow leach which means it has a negative leach or roach. Adding back the lost roach obviously powers up the main and helps in pointing up wind as well reducing leach flutter because the leach is supported by the vertical battens. I ultimately decided on the Hood sail because it is the only sail maker designing a Full batten sail. The other sails have vertical battens four to six feet long supporting the upper part of the main and roach.The Hood sail has 5 full length vertical battens. Each batten runs from the boom to the top of the roach. The first batten is about 50 feet long and the next 4 are progressively shorter. The battens are made out of carbon fiber in 10 foot lengths and are screwed together when installed. The end result is a sail with great shape and with a roach and sail size equal to a conventional large roach horizontal main sail. The sail cloth is made of vectran which reduces the weight aloft. My only question was whether this huge sail would roll into my selden mast. Hood guaranteed it would. I had it installed in mid April and it works! The difference in performance has been dramatic. The only draw back is cost. The sail was $4777 plus tax which was more than Uk or Doyle. I used the San Francisco Hood loft and was very satisfied with the service. In Feb., a friend of mine commissioned a new H426 and purchased the same sail from Hood's loft in Conn. and paid $6300. So shopping around is a good idea.
Several months ago, I decided to replace the stock furling UK main on my 2000 H460. I checked the Doyle swing batten, the Doyle vertical batten and the UK vertical batten and lastly the Hood Full batten vertical main. The vertical batten main adds back roach lost due to the cut of the furling main. In fact the standard furling main has a hollow leach which means it has a negative leach or roach. Adding back the lost roach obviously powers up the main and helps in pointing up wind as well reducing leach flutter because the leach is supported by the vertical battens. I ultimately decided on the Hood sail because it is the only sail maker designing a Full batten sail. The other sails have vertical battens four to six feet long supporting the upper part of the main and roach.The Hood sail has 5 full length vertical battens. Each batten runs from the boom to the top of the roach. The first batten is about 50 feet long and the next 4 are progressively shorter. The battens are made out of carbon fiber in 10 foot lengths and are screwed together when installed. The end result is a sail with great shape and with a roach and sail size equal to a conventional large roach horizontal main sail. The sail cloth is made of vectran which reduces the weight aloft. My only question was whether this huge sail would roll into my selden mast. Hood guaranteed it would. I had it installed in mid April and it works! The difference in performance has been dramatic. The only draw back is cost. The sail was $4777 plus tax which was more than Uk or Doyle. I used the San Francisco Hood loft and was very satisfied with the service. In Feb., a friend of mine commissioned a new H426 and purchased the same sail from Hood's loft in Conn. and paid $6300. So shopping around is a good idea.
full battens
My UK main is also full batten, but uses 4 battens to Patrick's 5. The quote I got from UK was $1,200 less than the quote from Hood, and the UK sail was a tri-radial design rather than panels. The Hood sail was a wover vectran, while the UK was a laminate. (Pre-stressed Dacron scrim sandwiched between two layers of mylar surrounded by layers of Dacron taffeta)Hard to say which sail will hold up longer. I had my sail built in their Sweden loft since they are located adjacent to the Seldon factory (where my mast was built.) The Hood was going to be built in Rhode Island. UK originally wanted to build my sail in Hong Kong, but I told them to forget it and was on the verge of ordering a Hood when they came up with the Sweden plan.
My UK main is also full batten, but uses 4 battens to Patrick's 5. The quote I got from UK was $1,200 less than the quote from Hood, and the UK sail was a tri-radial design rather than panels. The Hood sail was a wover vectran, while the UK was a laminate. (Pre-stressed Dacron scrim sandwiched between two layers of mylar surrounded by layers of Dacron taffeta)Hard to say which sail will hold up longer. I had my sail built in their Sweden loft since they are located adjacent to the Seldon factory (where my mast was built.) The Hood was going to be built in Rhode Island. UK originally wanted to build my sail in Hong Kong, but I told them to forget it and was on the verge of ordering a Hood when they came up with the Sweden plan.
Reefing
Patrick, were you advised to reef with the batten just inside the mast slot or just outside? There seems to be some divergence of opinion in this area. I've tried both approaches, but so far it seems to make more sense with the batten just aft of the slot.
Patrick, were you advised to reef with the batten just inside the mast slot or just outside? There seems to be some divergence of opinion in this area. I've tried both approaches, but so far it seems to make more sense with the batten just aft of the slot.
Reefing
Dear John The sail has two reef points which are marked on the sail. Each reef point corresponds to a batten. The actual location of the batten in the reefed position is just inside the slot.
Dear John The sail has two reef points which are marked on the sail. Each reef point corresponds to a batten. The actual location of the batten in the reefed position is just inside the slot.
Roller furler points great!
I just took delivery last week of my new 356 with a roller furling main. Yesterday on Kentucky Lake in 10 to 15 knots I was pointing at 40 to 45 degrees true and 30 degrees apparant all afternoon. This boat really points good! It is so easy to get the sail in, I'm totally sold.
I just took delivery last week of my new 356 with a roller furling main. Yesterday on Kentucky Lake in 10 to 15 knots I was pointing at 40 to 45 degrees true and 30 degrees apparant all afternoon. This boat really points good! It is so easy to get the sail in, I'm totally sold.
Thanks All
Thank you all for the considered responses! It sounds like the RF main will be appropriate for our kind of sailing, and with a new sail, the performance should be acceptable. -w
Thank you all for the considered responses! It sounds like the RF main will be appropriate for our kind of sailing, and with a new sail, the performance should be acceptable. -w
- Status