Upgrading to (used) Self-Tailing Winches

[marke14]

Hello everyone - I thought I'd test the proverbial waters on this subject.

We have a 25' sloop that I am increasingly sailing singlehanded. After crewing on a friend's boat that had ST winches, I was hooked. What a luxury for a singlehander!

Unfortunately these damn things are quite expensive, even when purchased secondhand. Sometimes even when they are very secondhand (i.e. used and abused, and look it).

I've noticed on eBay and elsewhere - the few times I've found them in used chandelries and on Craig's List and what not - they tend to be sold singularly rather than in pairs. My question to the group is, would you ever consider taking the "Frankenstein" approach and having two different winches as your primaries? I'd try to match them, aesthetically, to the degree that it is possible.

Or is that too bush league, and I should just wait it out until I can source a proper pair of used STers?

 

[Stu Jackson]

You might want to start off with Winchers. If you do a search here you'll find lots of discussions about them. I used them successfully on our Catalina 25 for many years, never did break out for the ST real ones, worked just fine. As part of the search results, you may find some of my "in defense of Winchers" writeups.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Hello everyone - I thought I'd test the proverbial waters on this subject.

We have a 25' sloop that I am increasingly sailing singlehanded. After crewing on a friend's boat that had ST winches, I was hooked. What a luxury for a singlehander!

Unfortunately these damn things are quite expensive, even when purchased secondhand. Sometimes even when they are very secondhand (i.e. used and abused, and look it).

I've noticed on eBay and elsewhere - the few times I've found them in used chandelries and on Craig's List and what not - they tend to be sold singularly rather than in pairs. My question to the group is, would you ever consider taking the "Frankenstein" approach and having two different winches as your primaries? I'd try to match them, aesthetically, to the degree that it is possible.

Or is that too bush league, and I should just wait it out until I can source a proper pair of used STers?

Check with Minney's in Newport Beach, CA. They have had some fabulous deals on new self-tailers for half of the retail price. I don't know what their inventory is at the moment but it would be worth contacting them.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Here's a Wincher discussion:

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...ch-for-catalina-30.139470/&highlight=winchers

There are tons more, I just checked.

Good luck.

 

[Apex]

West Marine has/had a BOGO on new winches....(is that sale still active?)

FWIW I think the ST is overkill on 25ft. (comparing with C25) Timing during the tack, and you can usually avoid any type of winching anyway. And that was with a 150%genny...

 

[capta]

You might want to start off with Winchers. If you do a search here you'll find lots of discussions about them. I used them successfully on our Catalina 25 for many years, never did break out for the ST real ones, worked just fine. As part of the search results, you may find some of my "in defense of Winchers" writeups.

I've seen those on boats and never really understood them. Just looked them up and they are intriguing.We really need a ST on our RF main outhaul, but as mentioned above, finding the right one at the right price is difficult. Do you think a Wincher would be appropriate on a Lewmar 16, two speed, for the RF outhaul on a 50' boat?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Do you think a Wincher would be appropriate on a Lewmar 16, two speed, for the RF outhaul on a 50' boat?

Sure. If it works manually now and you have to cleat it off, this will help. After you fill the coil, though, you can't much lead it downward to a cleat, need to leave it up on the winch.

 

[Joe]

Sorry... y'all know my opinion of winchers... waste of money. But... I hope you noticed WM's 2 for 1 sale this past weekend on all Lewmar winches.... I broke the bank and purchased a pair of #30's and a pair of #16's for the halyards... chrome over bronze ... ran about $1,600... for all four. Aluminum would have been about $200 cheaper...but what the heck. These are replacing my very well maintained 2 speed standard Barlow's .... my #18 Barlows are also 2 speeds... you don't see smaller 2 speeds anymore.... so they would make ideal primaries for a C22 or similar size boat. The Barlow/Barient winches are very well made.... all bronze with chrome finish... They will easily last another 40 years with proper maintenance. I'm thinking about selling them....

Oh.... regarding Marke14's question on st winches... wait for the next 2 for 1 sale, but first spend your money on a tiller pilot ... The ST winches will not improve the quality of your single handing experience anything remotely compared to what an autopilot will.... I've single handed my C27 all these years quite satisfied with the standard Barlow's... but with out a tiller pilot... forget it.

 

[RoyS]

Not all used self tailing winches are equal. I have Lewmar Ocean Series ST43's and they work poorly. They were installed by a P.O. about 1987. That model did not include wave springs in the tailing device and often slip the line. Later models were improved. Lewmar never offered an upgrade kit for those early failures. Be careful.

 

[marke14]

Thank you all for providing your insight.

Timing during the tack, and you can usually avoid any type of winching anyway. And that was with a 150%genny...

Apex, this is good advice and is my current practice. While sailing to weather, I usually will sheet in tight, fall off to my desired heading, and ease the sheet out to its proper trim. However sometimes you want to maintain heading and sheet in, and the winch is handy for that.

FWIW, I also luff / head up a bit when I have crew who doesn't know how to use the winch, or is intimidated by it.

Check with Minney's in Newport Beach, CA. They have had some fabulous deals on new self-tailers for half of the retail price.

Thanks Alan, I did see some in there one time and in fact I will make a trip down to check it out.

You might want to start off with Winchers. If you do a search here you'll find lots of discussions about them. I used them successfully on our Catalina 25 for many years, never did break out for the ST real ones, worked just fine.

Stu - the price is right (even compared to purchasing a single used ST winch), even at WM where everything is super-expensive. I think I will give those a try first - not much money to be out of for an experiment. I notice on the WM page that they are not recommended for sheet winches. I will go read and search here for other "Wincher" posts (and those in defense of such ) but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that point as well.

Thanks again everyone. You've saved me from a Frankenstein ST winch situation.

 

[marke14]

P.S. ...

The ST winches will not improve the quality of your single handing experience anything remotely compared to what an autopilot will.

Thank you Joe, that is excellent advice and I completely agree. This question is posed in part because I am budgeting for this expenditure as well, now that I've fixed my "tiller situation" - previously, our tiller would drop all the way to the cockpit sole unless we used our jury-rigged system of placing an emergency extendable oar across the gap between the lazarettes to support it. After posting to the Montego Sailboats Yahoo group, a fellow Montego 25 owner pointed out that the tiller hardware/fitting appeared to be attached backwards! Indeed, the PO (or one of them) had it installed backwards, which I recently rectified. I can't wait to take it out with the tiller properly supported by its own bracket.

Now, I will purchase a TillerPilot to increase my enjoyment of the boat and singlehanding in particular.

 

[Jackdaw]

Not all used self tailing winches are equal. I have Lewmar Ocean Series ST43's and they work poorly. They were installed by a P.O. about 1987. That model did not include wave springs in the tailing device and often slip the line. Later models were improved. Lewmar never offered an upgrade kit for those early failures. Be careful.

Those older gen Lewmar winches you are talking about are over 30 years old!

The current gen of ocean winches (around for the last 25 years!) are spectacular. Still being made, reliable as all heck, and can be totally disassembled without tools. Recommended.

In general I would never:
1) Install a winch from a company that is not still in business
2) Install a winch that is not still being made.

So old Lewmars are out. Double-out are any Barient, Barlow, or Maxwell.

 

[marke14]

Our winches (original equipment on our boat, as far as I know) are indeed old Lewmar one-speeds. I have disassembled all three of them for cleaning (and out of curiosity) and they all function perfectly. They're just not self-tailing.

Shopping for Tiller Pilots now ... ST2000 vs. ST1000 ... reading some interesting comments in older threads from some of the same "usual suspects" who are commenting on this thread.

 

[Joe]

In general I would never:
1) Install a winch from a company that is not still in business
2) Install a winch that is not still being made.

So old Lewmars are out. Double-out are any Barient, Barlow, or Maxwell.

Barient & Barlow winch owners: Don't panic. The AUSTRALIAN YACHT WINCH COMPANY supports these discontinued products. I have also found that Lewmar pawls and springs will interchange with my Barlows, which you can pick up at any full sized chandlery.

 

[Jackdaw]

Barient & Barlow winch owners: Don't panic. The AUSTRALIAN YACHT WINCH COMPANY supports these discontinued products. I have also found that Lewmar pawls and springs will interchange with my Barlows, which you can pick up at any full sized chandlery.

Joe, very true. But to be clear I'm talking about buying used winches, not what people already have on their boat. The issue is that even with their support, there is limited and spotty availability of these parts. They don't have many common parts that need replacing, like some of the delrin shaft bearings, or common gears. Most they do but some they don't. If they don't, things get interesting. In some cases they will actually try and make you a part, but that might take months. Break a gear on a Lewmar winch and you can have the part tomorrow.

For sure they are a great resource if you have these winches, I just can't see spending money on buying into that problem.