The boat came with an 05 Jabsco electric head pump . Because that was so noisy, we replaced it with a simple Jabsco manual pump head. There is a 1" water intake line to the pump controlled by a seacock, and a waste discharge loop from the head , (that hose goes up very high-- 66 inches above the floor on which the head is mounted.) the head output hose leads to a y - valve always kept on holding tank . we laboriously evict the toilet bowl contents with many pumps of the hand pump . then we pump the manual handle at least 20 more times to put fresh water through the waste line (and thence into the holding tank.) this practice causes us to have to pump out quite frequently . It's time for a head upgrade: any suggestions ? what brand ? are the electric pumps any quieter than they were in 05? do they have built in macerators at the head so its contents can flow more easily into the holding tank? (our macerator is between the holding tank and the sea, and is illegal to use.) do i need to replace the antisiphon valve ? (always another project on an old boat , sigh...)
Upgrades to the head?
- Thread starter MitchM
- Start date
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,967
Mitch. I was talking to @Peggie Hall HeadMistress about the manual pump on my Rartain PHll. She said the best design is to have the hose make a vertical run near the toilet. The the rest of the run to the holding tank is down hill. Gravity empties the hose to the tank once you have pumped the effluent over the hump. She said the pump can push the effluent up the hose about 10 feet. So a 4 ft rise is nothing.
This all started based on my looking at my system and thinking there is waist water in the lines even after we pump. The issue is the water lays on the bottom of the hose. So there is no way to generate any pressure to push the fluid along till the hose is full. I want the waste water to be in the holding tank not the hose.
So in the not to distant future a redesign and refit of my plumbing is in the works.
This all started based on my looking at my system and thinking there is waist water in the lines even after we pump. The issue is the water lays on the bottom of the hose. So there is no way to generate any pressure to push the fluid along till the hose is full. I want the waste water to be in the holding tank not the hose.
So in the not to distant future a redesign and refit of my plumbing is in the works.
The vented loop should be above the water line at any heel angle, that may account for the long rise in the hose. On my boat the vented loop is between the Y-Valve and the overboard discharge, not between the Head and the Y-valve. I'm not sure why the loop in your boat is where it is, unless it is there to prevent back siphoning from the holding tank to the head.
The Raritan PHII is a poplar head choice, works well and reliably. Robustly built.
Let's see if Peggie weighs in on this thread.
I put ...
... a Lavac head in the Endeavour after reading many good reviews on these. It uses a manual pump just past the head that empties it and also refills it without very many pumps.
The run from the head is vertical to just past the pump and then downhill to the holding tank, as mentioned in the other post above. There is no "Y" valve. Everything goes to the holding tank. We were checked last time on the water and as soon as they realized that we had no "Y" valve and couldn't pump directly over board they stopped their visit. West Marine advises this setup. As you can see above and in the next picture there are 'clean outs' on every run if needed and so far no problems at all with the new system.
There is another manual pump to pump the tank out through the thru-hull and it is fast and easy to pump out the 20 gallon tank. The tank can also be pumped out but we haven't been down that road yet.
We love the Lavac head. More on the install of the new holding tank and the head and plumbing here...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-plumbing/plumbing-index.html
Sumner
=========================================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas
... a Lavac head in the Endeavour after reading many good reviews on these. It uses a manual pump just past the head that empties it and also refills it without very many pumps.
The run from the head is vertical to just past the pump and then downhill to the holding tank, as mentioned in the other post above. There is no "Y" valve. Everything goes to the holding tank. We were checked last time on the water and as soon as they realized that we had no "Y" valve and couldn't pump directly over board they stopped their visit. West Marine advises this setup. As you can see above and in the next picture there are 'clean outs' on every run if needed and so far no problems at all with the new system.
There is another manual pump to pump the tank out through the thru-hull and it is fast and easy to pump out the 20 gallon tank. The tank can also be pumped out but we haven't been down that road yet.
We love the Lavac head. More on the install of the new holding tank and the head and plumbing here...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-plumbing/plumbing-index.html
Sumner
=========================================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas
First to comment on Dave's post:
Now to Mitch:
Is it time to upgrade your toilet? If it's new, not yet but it will be soon...average lifespan for a Jabsco pump these days 2-3 years. Keep it well lubricated and replace the joker valve at least annually should let you get at least that much time out of it before it needs a new pump. When that time comes, the Raritan PHII has been the top rated manual toilet since it was introduced 40 years ago. The current version is the Raritan PH SuperFlush...the mounting bolt pattern is an identical match for your Jabsco. Raritan PH SuperFlush
Yes, electric toilets have built-in macerators, but macerating really isn't all that important because solids are 75% water and are broken up by even a manual pump, so they dissolve very quickly in the tank. Some brands are noisier than others, but all sea water electric toilets are noisier than toilets designed to use onboard pressurized fresh water because it's the intake pump on sea water toilets that makes most of the noise...toilets designed to use pressurized fresh water don't have intake pumps.
All of this is covered in detail in my book. And I'm always glad to answer any questions it doesn't.
--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Not just above the waterline...it needs to be at least 6-8" above waterline at max heel...which on most sailboats puts it 2-3 FEET above the bowl.
It should have been installed ahead of the y-valve, to protect against backflow from sea water as well as from the tank.
Now to Mitch:
Your toilet intake thru-hull/line is 3/4" not 1". As for how high the discharge vented loop is, if you read what I just wrote to Dave, you'll see it's prob'ly where it belongs. And there should also be a vented loop about the same height in the inlet. It need to be installed between the pump and the bowl, which means replacing the short piece of hose the mfr used with enough hose to put it that high. See the drawing in the Jabsco owners manual: Jabsco Manual Twist & Lock owners manual I've also attach a photo showing both.
If you have my book (see link in my signature below)-- and have actually read any of it-- you know that any manual toilet that's working anywhere near factory spec can easily lift bowl contents up to 6' in the wet mode and up to 4' in the dry mode. So you only need to pump long enough to move the bowl contents over the top of the loop, then gravity will do the rest. Pump a few times to bring in a quart of water to rinse behind the flush, then switch to the dry mood to move that water over the top of the loop. You'd also know that adding water to the bowl ahead solids--if your toilet isn't designed to bring in water and hold it in the bowl,, use a beer cup from the sink--will keep the bowl a a lot cleaner and require a lot less water to flush.
Is it time to upgrade your toilet? If it's new, not yet but it will be soon...average lifespan for a Jabsco pump these days 2-3 years. Keep it well lubricated and replace the joker valve at least annually should let you get at least that much time out of it before it needs a new pump. When that time comes, the Raritan PHII has been the top rated manual toilet since it was introduced 40 years ago. The current version is the Raritan PH SuperFlush...the mounting bolt pattern is an identical match for your Jabsco. Raritan PH SuperFlush
Yes, electric toilets have built-in macerators, but macerating really isn't all that important because solids are 75% water and are broken up by even a manual pump, so they dissolve very quickly in the tank. Some brands are noisier than others, but all sea water electric toilets are noisier than toilets designed to use onboard pressurized fresh water because it's the intake pump on sea water toilets that makes most of the noise...toilets designed to use pressurized fresh water don't have intake pumps.
All of this is covered in detail in my book. And I'm always glad to answer any questions it doesn't.
--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Hey Sumner...please photos as thumbnails? Clicking on a thumbnail enlarges it to full size.
--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Hi Peggy,
I'm curious about this. The Y-valve sits about 12" above the inlet to the holding tank which sits about 2' above the bowl. The only condition I could see where a siphon would start is if the tank is completely filled and maybe pressurized. Then it could only back siphon until the fluid fell below the top of the outlet and that would break the siphon. Given the location of the tank, aft of the head on the same side of the boat it would be very difficult to start back siphoning from the holding tank, we'd have to be going down a very large, very steep wave for the outlet to rise above the Y-valve.
In the photo, the Y-valve is in the upper right, the inlet is to the left.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,967
Dave isn’t the issue when healing with the rail in the water on the side of your tank/toilet is your anti-siphon loop above the waste tank outlet. If not, you could create an opportunity for waste water to leave the tank and re-join the crew.
The tank outlet only goes to the pump out fitting. So nothing is going anywhere.
The tank is on port the inlet is on the inboard forward side of the tank. It then runs uphill in a U shape to the Y-valve which is roughly inline with the inlet, but higher (on a level boat). On a starboard tack, the inlet will be on the high side so, no problem there. On a port tack the inlet will be on the low side and if the hose will begin to fill but it will only rise to the level of the tank. If the boat is on its side the Y valve is still above the tank inlet, so it would be very difficult to start a siphon with anything less than a full tank.
Now if the boat was to pitch forward and broach past 90* on port tack with a full holding tank, there may be enough angles to allow a siphon to start. But if that happens, the head won't be the only place stuff will be coming out of. The head may well be the least of my worries.
I've spent some time obsessing about flow out of the tank, as I want to add a larger vent, but I don't want the vent to be filling with stuff (as it does now). Probably should find someone who has a good modeling program that we can rotate the holding design through to see what goes where.
The tank is on port the inlet is on the inboard forward side of the tank. It then runs uphill in a U shape to the Y-valve which is roughly inline with the inlet, but higher (on a level boat). On a starboard tack, the inlet will be on the high side so, no problem there. On a port tack the inlet will be on the low side and if the hose will begin to fill but it will only rise to the level of the tank. If the boat is on its side the Y valve is still above the tank inlet, so it would be very difficult to start a siphon with anything less than a full tank.
Now if the boat was to pitch forward and broach past 90* on port tack with a full holding tank, there may be enough angles to allow a siphon to start. But if that happens, the head won't be the only place stuff will be coming out of. The head may well be the least of my worries.
I've spent some time obsessing about flow out of the tank, as I want to add a larger vent, but I don't want the vent to be filling with stuff (as it does now). Probably should find someone who has a good modeling program that we can rotate the holding design through to see what goes where.
It doesn't have to be a siphon. Depending on where the inlet and vent fittings on the tank are installed, heeling can easily cause the contents of even a half full tank to spill into the toilet discharge line and run back toward it or out the vent. A loop--not necessarily a VENTED loop unless one is needed in a system that also flushes directly overboard--prevents the flow from making it all the way back to the toilet. Putting it ahead of any y-valve covers both bases..and also reduces the amount flushing needed as I described above.
Your tank fittings seem to be in locations that prevent runback, but it's a very common problem on many sailboats, made worse when the hose from the toilet to the tank runs uphill....and I always keep in mind that forum posts are read by many people in addition to the person to whom I'm replying. I read many years ago that there were an average of 100 lurkers for every active participant in any discussion forum...I suspect that ratio is even wider now.
As for relocating your vent, it's easy to do, thanks to a li'l gadget called the Uniseal UNISEAL Simply install it on or at the top of the tank (on the top is best if there's enough clearance above it) in the location closest to the centerline of the boat. I'll be glad help you with the specifics.
--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
this boat has the vented loop high up , handily located in a compartment right behind and above the head for ease of cleaning the vented loop air valve. on this boat it would be impossible to locate the parts where D L described his to be , as the y valve hose to the holding tank is located very close to the water line at floor level then goes under the floor out to a holding tank.
in order to minimize hose odor we have always flushed the waste so it’s well on its way to the holding tank then fill dthe line at day s end with fresh water treated with a little aquaKem holding tank deodorant in the bowl.
in order to minimize hose odor we have always flushed the waste so it’s well on its way to the holding tank then fill dthe line at day s end with fresh water treated with a little aquaKem holding tank deodorant in the bowl.
by the way there is a vented loop on the inlet too. it’s also very high and above emaximum heel lal in all the hose and vent systems are extremely well designed and i am not about to fuss with them as nauticat finland has been making these class a ocean boats for 50 years. my intent is to redo the toilet unit, the hose design appears to be fine. it’s replacing the jabsco toilet with soemthing else that’s a prime concern.
If you want to stay with a manual toilet, the Raritan PH SuperFlush is your best choice (details in my previous post #5 above). If you want to return to an electric toilet, the Raritan Marine Elegance Raritan Marine_Elegance Promo.pdf and the Raritan SeaEra are both top rated by Practical Sailor. The Elegance is designed to use onboard pressurized fresh water and is exceptionally quiet. The SeaEra is available in both sea water and pressurized fresh versions and also as a complete toilet or a "conversion" Raritan SeaEra Conversion Promo Sheet that allows you to re-use your Jabsco bowl seat and lid. The optional "Smart Flush" system Raritan Smart Flush manual.pdf can be added to the Elegance and also to the fresh water version of the SeaEra.
--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
excellent info, thanks ! i pose as the last query, why jabsco used such crummy rusting bolts to hold the lid on to the toilet.. alas, i should have replaced them before they stained the ceramic.
I think this will answer your question: About 7-8 years ago ITT spun off Jabsco to a company called Xylem Flow Control. Although Xylem is a US company, they do -0- mfr'g in the US...it's all done in three places: the UK, China and Mexico. Everything sold in the US is made in Mexico with materials and components sourced from China and other Asian countries.
...Leaving Groco (who only makes two toilets, both manual--the compact HF and the Model K, a bronze "throne" with a current price tag of about $1500 (and worth every penny)-- and Raritan as the only US toilet mfrs left who still make everything IN the US.
--Peggie
Hi Peggy,
Is that the head that was once the Wilcox Crittenden Skipper?
They look very similar.
