Well, I have personal experience that the 170 can tip over, and more. An unrelenting long stong gust of wind got me this weekend. I tried to quickly furl the jib, but the furling cleat would not catch. The angle was wrong. I was already heeled way over. The main was cleated but I was headed into the wind, or so I thought. Over I went. It was not very fast, 3 seconds, so there was no danger of my bumping on anything on the way over. But there I was, swimming -- embarassed, humilated. I was not planning to get into the drink until July or August. It was cold, real cold. The 170 was on its side, at least initially. I tried to get to the centerboard, but it was too high to grab, and by that time the boat turtled, and the centerboard retracted. Luckily the water was deep. There was NO way to turn it over again. Sails up or down. Ropes, pushing, pulling, and lifting had no effect, except to get me and my motorboat rescuers exhausted -- mostly me. I was in and out of the water for 45 minutes until a motor boat had tugged the boat to my deep water floating dock. I considered leaving it there, just like that, for a while. My shivering was uncontrollable in the wind. My mind was fussy. Hyperthermia, I guess. After changing into dry clothes, a hero jumped into the water with a face mask and managed to remove the sails, the boom, and the MAST. I think I have all the pieces. The boat was beached, and only then we could turn it back right. It took a great deal of effort for 3 adults standing on the beach to right the boat. The 170 canNOT be turned over when turtled, except at a beach (or if you have a crane). What have I learned? (1) Start sailing when the water gets warm, and especially when motor boats are around to help you; (2) the 170 CAN turn over, even with its wide beam; (3) it's a heavy boat. Possible improvements I may make? (1) attach a rope to the end of the mast and attach it to a side stay so that righting the boat MIGHT be possible; (2) replace the ruller furling jib line with a thinner and longer line so that furling can be done more easily -- maybe replace the cleat entirely; (3) add a line so that the centerboard will not retract until I want it to; (4) replace the clevis and cotter pins that attach the stays and all of the other removable hardware to the boat, so that they can all be removed more easily and quickly, if necessary, in an emergency and from under water. It may be a while until I'm sailing my 170 again. I have to check that all is in order. Pfew. But I think all I lost was a hat, some rope, and my confidence.
- Status
Congratulations on your baptism 
Welcome to the wonderful world of small boat sailing, where capsizing is a way of life. Although I now own an H23, I still sail my (very old) 16 ft planing sloop when I feel like an extra dose of adrenaline. I have capsized, turtled and sank this boat several times (twice in cold water), so I'll be more than happy to share a couple of hard-won lessons: a) you should be absolutely sure that the boat is head to wind before trying to furl the jib. If the boat is still heeled and the sails aren't flogging and making a huge racket, you aren't there yet. Another alternative would have been to sail on a beam reach and then ease both jib and main sheets all the way out (the so-called "control position"). The boat would have stopped with both sails streaming to leeward, at which time the jib could easily be furled. It's called the control position because all you have to do to get going again is sheet the main in slightly. It's easier than stopping head to wind, where getting started again is a little more complicated. b) avoid the temptation to cleat the main sheet when the wind pipes up. It's harder on the hands, but it's better to keep the mainsheet under total control under these conditions. If you get a really heavy gust, all you have to do is ease the sheet and luff the main. In extreme conditions, just let the sheet go and dump the main. Just make sure you hike inboard quick so that you don't fall overboard on the windward side... c) If for some reason you can't stop the boat safely right away (lee shore, other boats, etc.) don't be afraid to sail with a luff or even a big bubble in the main, if that will keep the boat under control, i.e not heeled excessively. It may not look pretty, but at least you're still dry and in the boat. d) if you feel the boat starting to go over, climb quickly up on the windward rail. If you do it really quickly, you can go from there straight onto the centerboard without going into the water, and hopefully your weight will right the boat. Of course, if the main was still cleated, you probably won't be able to do it, because as soon as the sail starts to come up, the wind will probably push it back down again. e) dress for the weather, including the water temperature. On a small boat, you will get wet at some point, even if you don't capsize. Even a shortie wet suit under your clothes would have made a big difference. With a dry suit you would have been laughing instead of shivering. e) If the sails (especially the main) are cleated, it is virtually impossible to bring a capsized dinghy upright, because now the sails are acting like a huge parachute in the water. The only way to get the boat back up is to dive underneath and uncleat the sheets. The proper clothing would have helped here too. f) I have seen many Hobie Cats around here with an empty plastic gallon bottle tied to the mastheads. It ain't pretty, but it keeps them from turning turtle. A turtled cat is a real pain to right.
Welcome to the wonderful world of small boat sailing, where capsizing is a way of life. Although I now own an H23, I still sail my (very old) 16 ft planing sloop when I feel like an extra dose of adrenaline. I have capsized, turtled and sank this boat several times (twice in cold water), so I'll be more than happy to share a couple of hard-won lessons: a) you should be absolutely sure that the boat is head to wind before trying to furl the jib. If the boat is still heeled and the sails aren't flogging and making a huge racket, you aren't there yet. Another alternative would have been to sail on a beam reach and then ease both jib and main sheets all the way out (the so-called "control position"). The boat would have stopped with both sails streaming to leeward, at which time the jib could easily be furled. It's called the control position because all you have to do to get going again is sheet the main in slightly. It's easier than stopping head to wind, where getting started again is a little more complicated. b) avoid the temptation to cleat the main sheet when the wind pipes up. It's harder on the hands, but it's better to keep the mainsheet under total control under these conditions. If you get a really heavy gust, all you have to do is ease the sheet and luff the main. In extreme conditions, just let the sheet go and dump the main. Just make sure you hike inboard quick so that you don't fall overboard on the windward side... c) If for some reason you can't stop the boat safely right away (lee shore, other boats, etc.) don't be afraid to sail with a luff or even a big bubble in the main, if that will keep the boat under control, i.e not heeled excessively. It may not look pretty, but at least you're still dry and in the boat. d) if you feel the boat starting to go over, climb quickly up on the windward rail. If you do it really quickly, you can go from there straight onto the centerboard without going into the water, and hopefully your weight will right the boat. Of course, if the main was still cleated, you probably won't be able to do it, because as soon as the sail starts to come up, the wind will probably push it back down again. e) dress for the weather, including the water temperature. On a small boat, you will get wet at some point, even if you don't capsize. Even a shortie wet suit under your clothes would have made a big difference. With a dry suit you would have been laughing instead of shivering. e) If the sails (especially the main) are cleated, it is virtually impossible to bring a capsized dinghy upright, because now the sails are acting like a huge parachute in the water. The only way to get the boat back up is to dive underneath and uncleat the sheets. The proper clothing would have helped here too. f) I have seen many Hobie Cats around here with an empty plastic gallon bottle tied to the mastheads. It ain't pretty, but it keeps them from turning turtle. A turtled cat is a real pain to right.
Been baptized before ;-(
This is in response to Peter Suah's note: "Congratulations on your baptism" I have been sailing the 170 for three seasons now, a 14 foot Javelin for 10 years before, and other small boats before then. Never got that wet before in the 170 or the Javelin, but did in other boats in other places. So, been there, done that. Unfortunately, the 170 is somewhat unresponsive to heading into the wind when the wind is strong. In my case, the jib was luffing. I have found over the last 2 years, that even if the main is also eased, it is difficult to turn the heeling 170 into the wind. I've taken in water a few times doing just that -- letting the main and jib sheets go completely, even the rudder also. In a strong gust, it's more than exciting when the lee rail submerges and the fish come in. The 170 doesn't want to turn into a strong wind. Actually, when we tried to right the boat in deep water with the mast on, none of the sails were cleated. The shape of the boat (its wide beam) makes un-turtling almost impossible when adrift. I, too, have seen cats with footballs atop their masts, in the Carribean and elsewhere. I think I can solve two problems at once, tieing a fender to a rope and raising it to the top of the mast before sailing. That way the top of the mast will have flotation to prevent turtling (hopefully), and I will also have a rope attached to the top of the mast in case the fender does not work. Good suggestion, thanks. I wish I were back on the Beneteau 352 I chartered in Tortola last March. Less heeling, warmer water!
This is in response to Peter Suah's note: "Congratulations on your baptism
" I have been sailing the 170 for three seasons now, a 14 foot Javelin for 10 years before, and other small boats before then. Never got that wet before in the 170 or the Javelin, but did in other boats in other places. So, been there, done that. Unfortunately, the 170 is somewhat unresponsive to heading into the wind when the wind is strong. In my case, the jib was luffing. I have found over the last 2 years, that even if the main is also eased, it is difficult to turn the heeling 170 into the wind. I've taken in water a few times doing just that -- letting the main and jib sheets go completely, even the rudder also. In a strong gust, it's more than exciting when the lee rail submerges and the fish come in. The 170 doesn't want to turn into a strong wind. Actually, when we tried to right the boat in deep water with the mast on, none of the sails were cleated. The shape of the boat (its wide beam) makes un-turtling almost impossible when adrift. I, too, have seen cats with footballs atop their masts, in the Carribean and elsewhere. I think I can solve two problems at once, tieing a fender to a rope and raising it to the top of the mast before sailing. That way the top of the mast will have flotation to prevent turtling (hopefully), and I will also have a rope attached to the top of the mast in case the fender does not work. Good suggestion, thanks. I wish I were back on the Beneteau 352 I chartered in Tortola last March. Less heeling, warmer water!Go for it, maybe with a reef in the main?
I am beginning to see your dilemma. If you try to control heel by easing the mainsheet, you lose of the "weathervane effect" that a tightly sheeted main would normally provide. The bow now tends to fall off and the boat becomes harder to point into the wind. Luffing the jib to push the CE aft and restore the balance to the sailplan doesn't help either, because now both sails are depowered and you can't get up enough boatspeed to come around properly. Ouch! Will reefing the main early help you any? Most Hunter owners have come to the conclusion that this is the way to go. That's what I do on my H23 to keep it controllable. Unfortunately, I can't do the same on the Missile, which has a hank-on jib and a big, unreefable main. I just hike hard and sail without the jib on real windy days. It seems to me that since you've kept your 170 this long, the boat must be fun to sail, so don't let the recent swim discourage you. Get right back on that puppy! Peter S/V Raven
I am beginning to see your dilemma. If you try to control heel by easing the mainsheet, you lose of the "weathervane effect" that a tightly sheeted main would normally provide. The bow now tends to fall off and the boat becomes harder to point into the wind. Luffing the jib to push the CE aft and restore the balance to the sailplan doesn't help either, because now both sails are depowered and you can't get up enough boatspeed to come around properly. Ouch! Will reefing the main early help you any? Most Hunter owners have come to the conclusion that this is the way to go. That's what I do on my H23 to keep it controllable. Unfortunately, I can't do the same on the Missile, which has a hank-on jib and a big, unreefable main. I just hike hard and sail without the jib on real windy days. It seems to me that since you've kept your 170 this long, the boat must be fun to sail, so don't let the recent swim discourage you. Get right back on that puppy! Peter S/V Raven
Add a toy
Just want to extend Peter's thoughts about not cleating your main. I have seen, and used on other's boats, ratcheting turning blocks that make it much easier to hold the uncleated line. The block can be switched: off, it rotates freely in both directions, on, it rotates in only one diretion, and its designed to provide some grip on the line so you can more easily hold it, yet let it run when you want to ease it out. I encountered it on an S-20 on the spinnikar sheets. I think I've seen it used for main sheets as well. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Just want to extend Peter's thoughts about not cleating your main. I have seen, and used on other's boats, ratcheting turning blocks that make it much easier to hold the uncleated line. The block can be switched: off, it rotates freely in both directions, on, it rotates in only one diretion, and its designed to provide some grip on the line so you can more easily hold it, yet let it run when you want to ease it out. I encountered it on an S-20 on the spinnikar sheets. I think I've seen it used for main sheets as well. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
"Toe in the Water?"
I read your comments with real interest and a bit of anxiety. Just completed Offshore Sailing School's "Learn to Sail" course and looking to sail. Thought I would buy a small daysailor (Flying Scot or Hunter 170)for sailing on a fresh water lake nearby. But after reading your emails I'm second guessing my purchase. Do you think I should gain the experience first before commiting to a purchase? Are these the right boats for me? Maybe you experienced sailors can give me some advice on how to proceed before I put my toe in the water. Thanks.
I read your comments with real interest and a bit of anxiety. Just completed Offshore Sailing School's "Learn to Sail" course and looking to sail. Thought I would buy a small daysailor (Flying Scot or Hunter 170)for sailing on a fresh water lake nearby. But after reading your emails I'm second guessing my purchase. Do you think I should gain the experience first before commiting to a purchase? Are these the right boats for me? Maybe you experienced sailors can give me some advice on how to proceed before I put my toe in the water. Thanks.
toe in the water
Don't know anything about the 170, but for a first boat I would think something like a Rhodes 19 would be a really good starting boat. It has a keel and is very easy to sail. If you need to have a centerboard than I would recommend a Cape Cod Mercury as a good stable boat to learn on. Some other easy boats are Bulls eye, blue jay, mariner. The Flying Scott will be a hell of a ride though.
Don't know anything about the 170, but for a first boat I would think something like a Rhodes 19 would be a really good starting boat. It has a keel and is very easy to sail. If you need to have a centerboard than I would recommend a Cape Cod Mercury as a good stable boat to learn on. Some other easy boats are Bulls eye, blue jay, mariner. The Flying Scott will be a hell of a ride though.
I used to it.
After starting my sailing career on a Hobie Cat, I think I spent more time in the water than on the boat. Talk about sailing on the edge. After a while you got real good at turning boats back up. First time it took about 2 hours in a cold Northern Indiana lake. Learned real fast after that.
After starting my sailing career on a Hobie Cat, I think I spent more time in the water than on the boat. Talk about sailing on the edge. After a while you got real good at turning boats back up. First time it took about 2 hours in a cold Northern Indiana lake. Learned real fast after that.
Righting a Turtled 170
The 170 when turtled is easy to swin under from the open transom. It sits up like a Catamaran. I swan under, uncleated the main, located lines and furled the Jib. I had half a dozen concerned boaters around and selected an intelligent looking gentleman boater with a 175 Hp, explained what I wanted to try, warned him that he must stop as soon as the mast started up so that he wouldn't get slapped. Took two painters accross bottom to him and tied them off. He backed sharply and the 170 came up. Since I had lossed the Main and Furled the jib there was no problem with wind. I crawled in through the open transom, retrieved the painters and thanked the Boater, offering payment if he demanded and then reset my sails and sailed wetly into the sunset. I have never had to completely furl the jib and sail only on the Main. One or two wraps and it is greatly depowered. Let the Main go and then catch a minimum of wind to maintain the Boat at Weather. If there is lots of room to do it, Furl the Main and sail the jib downwind to cleaner, friendlier air. Without the Motor and the Center-board retracted, I don't think you can right the 170. I have added flotation in the Mast just in case, I hope this will keep it from turtling. Cost was $25.00. Haven't gone over since that first time in the Lake when the Gusts(multiple) caught me asleep at the tiller with the main sheet clewed.
The 170 when turtled is easy to swin under from the open transom. It sits up like a Catamaran. I swan under, uncleated the main, located lines and furled the Jib. I had half a dozen concerned boaters around and selected an intelligent looking gentleman boater with a 175 Hp, explained what I wanted to try, warned him that he must stop as soon as the mast started up so that he wouldn't get slapped. Took two painters accross bottom to him and tied them off. He backed sharply and the 170 came up. Since I had lossed the Main and Furled the jib there was no problem with wind. I crawled in through the open transom, retrieved the painters and thanked the Boater, offering payment if he demanded and then reset my sails and sailed wetly into the sunset. I have never had to completely furl the jib and sail only on the Main. One or two wraps and it is greatly depowered. Let the Main go and then catch a minimum of wind to maintain the Boat at Weather. If there is lots of room to do it, Furl the Main and sail the jib downwind to cleaner, friendlier air. Without the Motor and the Center-board retracted, I don't think you can right the 170. I have added flotation in the Mast just in case, I hope this will keep it from turtling. Cost was $25.00. Haven't gone over since that first time in the Lake when the Gusts(multiple) caught me asleep at the tiller with the main sheet clewed.
Don't knock the Flying Scot!
As much as I love Hunters, I gotta tell ya...the Flying Scot is a great little boat. For the rookie, it will move along under the main alone at a manageable pace. The main can easily be reefed. As you become more proficient, add the jib and the boat will start to show its true potential. If you get really good,get a spinnaker and the Scot will plane with the best of them. Only a Highlander on plane is more impressive. There are trapezes available for the hotshots. The Scot is a great daysailer. The cockpit is huge, six adults, a couple of large coolers and a basket of food will easily fit. With the swing keel retracted, the boat only draws about eight inches, so you can easily beach it and walk ashore. It is easily trailered. There are lots of Scots on the market, check the Flying Scot Sailors Assoc. website (www.fssa.com). Peter S/V Raven
As much as I love Hunters, I gotta tell ya...the Flying Scot is a great little boat. For the rookie, it will move along under the main alone at a manageable pace. The main can easily be reefed. As you become more proficient, add the jib and the boat will start to show its true potential. If you get really good,get a spinnaker and the Scot will plane with the best of them. Only a Highlander on plane is more impressive. There are trapezes available for the hotshots. The Scot is a great daysailer. The cockpit is huge, six adults, a couple of large coolers and a basket of food will easily fit. With the swing keel retracted, the boat only draws about eight inches, so you can easily beach it and walk ashore. It is easily trailered. There are lots of Scots on the market, check the Flying Scot Sailors Assoc. website (www.fssa.com). Peter S/V Raven
Agree with Peter. but...
Can I put in a good word for my old Windmills? Not near as big as the Scotts but bags of fun for a kid and at least as fast. In my day (35 yrs ago), we made them out of wood from blueprints. I think, toward the end of my insanity, there was a company starting to make them in F/G. Are they gone now? Greg
Can I put in a good word for my old Windmills? Not near as big as the Scotts but bags of fun for a kid and at least as fast. In my day (35 yrs ago), we made them out of wood from blueprints. I think, toward the end of my insanity, there was a company starting to make them in F/G. Are they gone now? Greg
To Ed Smith - More Details?
Please provide more details about unturtling your 170. I agree that furling the jib and uncleating the main on a turtled 170 is easy. I did it. Freaked me out a bit being under the hull, but enough light came in to see OK. Your are right, the motor boaters thought I had drowned. Seen the movie White Storm (with Jeff Bridges)? Yeow. Where did you attach your painter ropes to the 170? And where did they go after being attached to the 170? I would think that having someone on a boat 20 or so feet away from the 170 pull a rope attached to the mast top (actually the deep end of the turtled 170's mast) would raise the mast and unturtle the 170? Is this what you did? If you attached a rope or two to the side of the 170, where? To the base of the side stays? Or to the fore and aft cleats? Then up over the bottom of the boat? Was your centerboard retracted at the time? More details would be helpful. How did you add flotation to the inside of the mast? What did you use? Be my hero, please. I want to make some changes on the boat so that if I turtle again, it won't be so traummatic and embarassing. I am a bit concerned about venturing out again.
Please provide more details about unturtling your 170. I agree that furling the jib and uncleating the main on a turtled 170 is easy. I did it. Freaked me out a bit being under the hull, but enough light came in to see OK. Your are right, the motor boaters thought I had drowned. Seen the movie White Storm (with Jeff Bridges)? Yeow. Where did you attach your painter ropes to the 170? And where did they go after being attached to the 170? I would think that having someone on a boat 20 or so feet away from the 170 pull a rope attached to the mast top (actually the deep end of the turtled 170's mast) would raise the mast and unturtle the 170? Is this what you did? If you attached a rope or two to the side of the 170, where? To the base of the side stays? Or to the fore and aft cleats? Then up over the bottom of the boat? Was your centerboard retracted at the time? More details would be helpful. How did you add flotation to the inside of the mast? What did you use? Be my hero, please. I want to make some changes on the boat so that if I turtle again, it won't be so traummatic and embarassing. I am a bit concerned about venturing out again.
Attach The Lines
at the fore and aft cleats on opposite side from the motor assisting. I have 35 ft dock lines and I carry four. We used two and I ran them straight over the bottom of the hull to the motor. I told them to stop backing as soon as the mast started up. They did not get whacked so it must have worked. I did not think of tieing to the mast. The rail just digs in nicely and actually helps to right the boat. Not every place you go will be deep enough to turtle or even be this simple. We thought about the problem of not being able to furl the sails and I would suggest getting your boat turned into the wind before bringing it up or it will try to sail and could damage your good samaritan, not to mention your boat.
at the fore and aft cleats on opposite side from the motor assisting. I have 35 ft dock lines and I carry four. We used two and I ran them straight over the bottom of the hull to the motor. I told them to stop backing as soon as the mast started up. They did not get whacked so it must have worked. I did not think of tieing to the mast. The rail just digs in nicely and actually helps to right the boat. Not every place you go will be deep enough to turtle or even be this simple. We thought about the problem of not being able to furl the sails and I would suggest getting your boat turned into the wind before bringing it up or it will try to sail and could damage your good samaritan, not to mention your boat.
How About a Catboat?
I am selling my 1998 Hunter 170 for just the reasons reflected in these "Unplanned Swim" messages, but it is much more of a comment on me and not on the boat. Indeed, I find that the 170 is as well a designed "compromise" between stability and performance as you will find. Although I have not been over, 2 weeks ago, I caught the same problem that several of you noted - I was "asleep" at the wheel while soloing, a large sudden increase in wind came along, and up I went. I uncleated the main, but not the jib, and yes, the boat would not point up, but continued to fall off and heel dangerously. I was just able to uncleat the jib, whereupon the boat settled down. The problem is the sailor (me), not the boat, and would not be a problem with two in crew (one hand on each sheet) or with better preparation (reef the sail when you see high winds) or with a more agile sailor with some minor changes to the running rigging. I have decided that I would rather go the route of laziness and I am getting a 14” Compass Classic Catboat – one sail, lots of square footage, phenomenal stability and – yes – less performance upwind. However, I continue to recommend the 170 to those seeking a real performer with substantially more room and stability than other performance-oriented boats in the 14-18’ range. By the way, a mast-top float is an absolute must and so cheap as to beg the question as to why it is not there already.
I am selling my 1998 Hunter 170 for just the reasons reflected in these "Unplanned Swim" messages, but it is much more of a comment on me and not on the boat. Indeed, I find that the 170 is as well a designed "compromise" between stability and performance as you will find. Although I have not been over, 2 weeks ago, I caught the same problem that several of you noted - I was "asleep" at the wheel while soloing, a large sudden increase in wind came along, and up I went. I uncleated the main, but not the jib, and yes, the boat would not point up, but continued to fall off and heel dangerously. I was just able to uncleat the jib, whereupon the boat settled down. The problem is the sailor (me), not the boat, and would not be a problem with two in crew (one hand on each sheet) or with better preparation (reef the sail when you see high winds) or with a more agile sailor with some minor changes to the running rigging. I have decided that I would rather go the route of laziness and I am getting a 14” Compass Classic Catboat – one sail, lots of square footage, phenomenal stability and – yes – less performance upwind. However, I continue to recommend the 170 to those seeking a real performer with substantially more room and stability than other performance-oriented boats in the 14-18’ range. By the way, a mast-top float is an absolute must and so cheap as to beg the question as to why it is not there already.
Unplanned Swim
To the guy who just completed saling scholl and is having second thoughts. Don't!!! Highly recommend the smaller Hunters to learn on and hone your skills. I have a 140 and have been caught napping by gusts and almost went over. I always keep my line in my hand and the jib leads trailed back to me when I solo sail. Yes, I 've buried the transom a couple of times but the boat(IMHO) is very stable if you react promptly. There have been days when I've caught more fish then the local fisherman. I'm not a real young guy so my reflexes are not what they used to be and I do ok. I've learned a lot from you guys and getting out and putting what I've learned into practice. Love my 140. However, I do have my eye on a 260 since my family has been increasing(grand kids and parents).
To the guy who just completed saling scholl and is having second thoughts. Don't!!! Highly recommend the smaller Hunters to learn on and hone your skills. I have a 140 and have been caught napping by gusts and almost went over. I always keep my line in my hand and the jib leads trailed back to me when I solo sail. Yes, I 've buried the transom a couple of times but the boat(IMHO) is very stable if you react promptly. There have been days when I've caught more fish then the local fisherman. I'm not a real young guy so my reflexes are not what they used to be and I do ok. I've learned a lot from you guys and getting out and putting what I've learned into practice. Love my 140. However, I do have my eye on a 260 since my family has been increasing(grand kids and parents).
- Status