Twizzle rig?

[Tipsynippertoo]

Hi All,
I have a Hunter 356 2002yr with B&R In Mast Furling, and am looking at a new suit of sails.
I am usually short handed so need easy handling.
The jib foil only has one groove for a bolt rope, so the Twizzle would have to be using only one groove.
The Twizzle rig looks ideal for down wind (not interested in Spinnakers/Chutes), but could also be used as a conventional jib.
Does anyone have any experience or feedback to offer please?

Thanks
Neil

 

[Will Gilmore]

My father talks about a friend of his from England who tried a twizzle rig on his boat. The yards flapped up and down so hard he finally had to give it up or risk doing damage to the sails. He may have not had it rigged quite right, I don't know.
It looks like that could be a problem in your video too, if there was any sea. Maybe an extra line to vang it? Also, I notice it took two of them to furl the last few feet. If weather comes up and you have to deal with those yards whipping up and down before getting them in, it could get dangerous.
It's hard to say. I can see adding a control line to bring the butts of your yards down to the deck when stowing them. That could allow for more control single handing.
I'm interested in this thread because my father talks a lot about what a terrible idea the twizzle rig is but I've never seen one.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[dlochner]

Poled out double headsails is a pretty common technique for long downwind runs, like in the tradewinds.

Usually the poles are attached to the mast.

Google "double headsail rig" and you will find lots of suggestions.

 

[Tipsynippertoo]

Thanks,
A particularly good article here:

http://www.yachtingworld.com/cruisi...r-with-this-simple-white-sails-solution-62725

 

[Owen Thistle]

I don't have any experience with these, but it doesn't look like something I'd add to a sail inventory for general purpose cruising, which seems to be what you're after. In both the videos and the Yachting World article it is described as a passagemaking sail or "trade wind" sail for going dead downwind. Easy to set, self-tending, easy to douse, easy to sleep. But if you're wanting better downwind performance for day-to-day sailing I think it would suck. I think you'd unfurl it, look at it, and wonder why you aren't moving any faster.
In that bikini-shaped configuration it doesn't generate any lift, just drag. That's nice for stability and when there's plenty of wind but otherwise its, well, a drag. It won't perform anything like a spinnaker, especially if there isn't much wind (which so often is the case). And if there's lots of wind you probably don't have a problem with the sails you have.
You stated that you aren't interested in a spinnaker or chute, and I'll admit I've had more than my share of embarrassing spinnaker mishaps, but they're a joy for moving downwind. I'd start with a cruising chute and a sock, and some light wind. Then you'll get hooked. Then you'll wrap it around your forestay, but you'll still be hooked. With practice you just need one crew. My 2 cents.

 

[CarlN]

I used one about 15 years ago. They are marvelous. You sail with no mainsail and the boat tracks like she's on rails. Sail can be quickly reduced from the cockpit - a huge advantage over a spinnaker.

It takes about an hour to set up and another hour to clear away, so this only makes sense when you expect several days of downwind sailing.

The boat had a solent rig with two headsails -- each on a furler. The sails were not the same size but that didn't bother the twizzle. We would set the smaller sail to windward. The furlers allowed the spinnaker poles to be set up on a clear deck (more on this below). Once everything was ready, the sails were unfurled from the cockpit. They could also be easily furled again to let a squall pass or simply for a squall or simply to reduce sail at night. Ours was rigged so we could swivel the whole thing about 30 degrees for a broad reach.

Securing the poles is the biggest challenge. The joint at their inboard end must be very strong and be able to handle both compression and tension. We had a whole bunch of lines to hold the poles. An uphaul, two downhauls attached at the deck so you could turning the sail for a broad reach. We also had a uphaul and downhaul for each pole's outer end. The sheet just slid though the pole fitting. We could have saved a few lines without securing the pole ends this way, but it made the setup and take down very controlled - not a bad thing on a foredeck offshore.

 

[DArcy]

This really baffles me. What is the advantage of that pole arrangement? Why not just attach the poles to the mast? It just looks way more complicated than necessary, maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Tipsynippertoo]

The Twizzle rig as shown in the video explains how the rig works so well. It is the fact that the whisker poles are not attached to the mast that makes it self-damping to reduce the roll. I would think it is kinder to the whole setup also.
I met "smacman" who posted the video. Lovely man who has got a lot of experience.
It's great that this post has got us thinking......all thoughts and advice gladly received.
The day we stop learning should be when they nail the lid closed!

 

[Will Gilmore]

The high clews on the headsails would almost be necessary to prevent banging up and down. Otherwise, some sort of vanging would need to be in place. It might be necessary anyhow. It typically is the case that when the seas get bigger the wind is higher and that would help steady the rig but, sometimes it gets quite rolley without the wind. In that case, you have to be able to stabilize the whole setup.
If the OP is looking at a singlehanded setup, notice it took two guys to finish the furling. Someone had to be forward to take care of the poles while the other guy hauled on the furling cable. Maybe the poles could be stowed first with minimal sail up, then furl.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Ron20324]

I picked up a second OEM jib from Chuck McG. When I sew the sun panel back on, I'll fly both jibs. Both being the same, I call them Angel Wings, in memory of Chuck.

 

[Tipsynippertoo]

Thank you for your posts/suggestions.

Update on my "Twizzle Rig".

I found another similar age/wear Jenoa going very cheap, which I sewed to my original (I don't have dual bolt rope grooves in my furler). I have a spinnaker pole which is the right length to attach to the mast fitting and the windward clew which I do with the sails furled (very safe way of doing business). I then un-furl the sails and away we go. I can furl the two sails from the cockpit, no need to go forward.

They work very well, and can accommodate wind up to 30 deg off the stern with the pole on the windward sail. It gives me about 50% more speed than just using one Jenoa in light winds.

It makes me smile every time I deploy the sails downwind. Sailing up wind is also no problem. When I tack I do occasionally have one sail go forward of the other so it's on the wrong side if I don't have its sheet under control, but it is easy to pull it back around so that it lays against the working sail.

If the wind gets up with the Twizzle out it is easy to roll in both sails using the furler.

I don't use the pole unless I need to be off of a following wind by any more than 10 deg. It is possible to deploy the pole with the sails out, but much more difficult/dangerous.

Deploying the sails takes no more time than just one sail unless I want to use the pole, which only takes 5 mins.

When I come to buying new sales I will be doing the same......it is a brilliant system for a boat with a single foresail. For me a Chute or Spinnaker are just too much risk and trouble storing/rigging/dousing as most of the time I am single handed even when I am with my wife (my wife has MS).

Just brilliant......love it!

Neil

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I don't have anything to add … but I just had to look at a thread about a Twizzle rig posted by Tipsynippertoo!

 

[capta]

I've been deploying head and stay sails w/o a foil or hanks for over 5 decades by using a sail with a luff wire built in. All you need is a strong point to attach the tack to on the deck and a halyard. So you run one head sail in your foil and the other w/o a stay or foil.
I can't for the life of me understand why the rig in the video hasn't got both poles fixed to the mast, either on a track and/or a simple pad eye. That system looks like a disaster just waiting to happen. I can easily see it leading to a dismasting.

 

[jssailem]

Nothing wrong with developing a way with the sails you have to give your boat propulsion that you otherwise do not have.

The Spinnakers, Code Zeros, Gennaker, or Asymmetrical etc. are just more efficient designs than a couple of wing on wing jibs or genoas. You could get a couple of pairs of GrandMa’s bloomers and haul them up.

As the owner said, they help him manage his boat and sail it with minimum crew. I note that the video shows relatively calm seas and mild breezes. As @capta points out that pair of partially lashed poles floating in the air could get unwieldily should the seas and wind change. Should the watch person nap a bit and a squall come up over the horizon, going forward to untangle that mass of lines and poles could be a problem.

 

[ScottySailor]

Thanks,
A particularly good article here:

Downwind sailing tips

Thanks that’s what I’ve been looking for seems like the ultimate sail plan for a Hunter?

 

[Witzend]

I raced a Hunter Legend 37 in non-spin class and we were allowed to set a lose luff. I used a windsurfing carbon fiber mast for a whisker pole on a mast track. Could deploy in seconds around the up wind mark.
Had some comments that the pole would break, had it backwind one time, flexed it signaficantly, but did not break. Very light, strong and flexible.

 

[Tipsynippertoo]

Update:
I had new sails made a couple of years ago, not long after posting the original article.
I still love the double headsail or twizzle, I find that I can sail in very light winds up to 10kts with both sails out very comfortably, the windward one poled out and the wind up to 20 deg aft of abeam. With the sheets set correctly the double sail works as one, and the performance is great.
The poles attach to the fwd side of the mast so that they can pivot all the way back to the outer stay, and are slightly longer than the distance to the forestay so that they can't go beyond it when recovering/deploying them.
I now have two whisker poles which I have used in very light airs, but I don't think it makes much difference to the performance other than keeping the sails out when the wind falls to lower than boat speed and stops the sails collapsing.

 

[Tipsynippertoo]

Downwind sailing tips

Cruising sailor Iain Simpson gives downwind sailing tips on using twin headsails and mainsail for faster and easier passagemaking

www.yachtingworld.com

Thank you for the link Scotty.