I have a basic tuning question. I have a H-33.5 fractional rig. Close hauled, we can point about 30 degrees on port tack, but only 35 to 40 degrees on starboard. Does the mast need to be adjusted to starboard or to port?
Tuning the Rig
- Thread starter Rick19356
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Your first job is to check to see if the mast is "in column". Run a steel tape to the masthead on the main halyard and measure to each chainplate. Adjust the cap shrouds(with all the others loosened) until the distance to each chainplate is exactly equal. Then static tune your rig.
keel
You keel shape and bottom has an impact on how you point on both tacks. Imperfections in a bottom can lead to pointing slightly higher on one side than the other. I know it sounds crazy, but just something else to consider. I know because it is a lot more pronounced on a boat with a swing keel, like mine, since it moves and can in a sense twist on its axis if the pivot point is not a tight fit. Just another consideration.....
You keel shape and bottom has an impact on how you point on both tacks. Imperfections in a bottom can lead to pointing slightly higher on one side than the other. I know it sounds crazy, but just something else to consider. I know because it is a lot more pronounced on a boat with a swing keel, like mine, since it moves and can in a sense twist on its axis if the pivot point is not a tight fit. Just another consideration.....
Determining pointing angle.
There was no mention of how the pointing angles were determined. I recently had the same problem. I was reading the angle from a Raytheon Wind Machine. I had originally calibrated it by motoring at 6.5 knots on a still day and then changed calibration by centering the angles. But I continued to show different apparent wind angles close-hauled on each tack. I felt the boat was doing it's best on each tack, so I changed the calibration again, to split the difference so that it reads approximately the same on each tack, and now I think it provides more useful information. Just the way I did it.
There was no mention of how the pointing angles were determined. I recently had the same problem. I was reading the angle from a Raytheon Wind Machine. I had originally calibrated it by motoring at 6.5 knots on a still day and then changed calibration by centering the angles. But I continued to show different apparent wind angles close-hauled on each tack. I felt the boat was doing it's best on each tack, so I changed the calibration again, to split the difference so that it reads approximately the same on each tack, and now I think it provides more useful information. Just the way I did it.
Determining pointing angle.
If your original calibration was correct , then you have removed half the reading error on each tack. I would suggest you first check your mast 'in column' settings and cap shroud tensions. Then recalibrate your wind machine.
If your original calibration was correct , then you have removed half the reading error on each tack. I would suggest you first check your mast 'in column' settings and cap shroud tensions. Then recalibrate your wind machine.
Alan
"If the original calibration was correct" is the possibly the problem. I didn't have that much faith in it. I have also tuned my rig to the max. Centered the mast, set up all tensions using the Loos Pro gauge per Brion Toss's recommendations. If the boat has a keel problem, or some other anomaly, I don't feel it's correctable with my resources. I think I've done all that's practical, so splitting the error difference, if that's what I have done, is the most useful thing I think I can do at this point. But I thank you for the input.
"If the original calibration was correct" is the possibly the problem. I didn't have that much faith in it. I have also tuned my rig to the max. Centered the mast, set up all tensions using the Loos Pro gauge per Brion Toss's recommendations. If the boat has a keel problem, or some other anomaly, I don't feel it's correctable with my resources. I think I've done all that's practical, so splitting the error difference, if that's what I have done, is the most useful thing I think I can do at this point. But I thank you for the input.
Let's try another approach. You say the rig is tuned to the max. Is your masthead Windex setup properly? Meaning, do you have the correct angles set on the Windex and is it centered on the mast? If not I would take care to make that adjustment, then go sailing and forget the electronics and just watch the Windex. Note the angle that the headsail starts to luff on one tack and compare that to the other tack. If they are the same relative to the Windex, you are good to go and your electronics are the problem. If not check your car locations to make sure they are equal. Send a follow up and let me know.
Windex
Yeah, I use the Windex all the time. It's much more "visual", and gives me quicker information on wind direction than the electronics. Plus I've been using a Windex for 25 years, and only using the Raytheon for 5, so it's much more automatic for me to look at the top of the mast instead. It seems to be set up just fine. The uneven close-hauled angles I had on the Raytheon differed by only about 5 degrees or so. It's really kind of a small error, and was not always that obvious, and more of a nuisance than any thing. I think the initial calibration could have easily been off by that much. Changing the calibration by about 2 1/2 degrees so that the numbers matched on each tack I think is fine. I don't get the feeling that the Raytheon instrument has very good resolution down to a few degrees, due to the short vane it uses, which seems to fluctuate, and bounce around a lot. The calibration is also tricky. Then the damping adjustment settings you choose alter the displayed information as well. They do make a close-hauled indicator with an expanded screen, but if it uses the same vane I still would question just how accurate it could be. Correlating with the Windex is not that easy, what with slightly shifty winds, and the boat moving around and all. I'm not sure I can even reliably detect 5 degrees difference on the Windex. Anyway, I generally concentrate on the jib luff telltales once I'm on a close-hauled course and have the jib trimmed properly. I tend to use the wind indicators, vane or electronics, for rough information, not fine-tuning. I hope this makes sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the boat seems to me, to be pointing well on each tack. Enough so that I don't detect a problem from the Windex, and the different angles shown by the Raytheon seem most likely to just have been a calibration issue. I'm happy with the current setup. Now, we never did hear from the original poster on how he determined his sailing angles?
Yeah, I use the Windex all the time. It's much more "visual", and gives me quicker information on wind direction than the electronics. Plus I've been using a Windex for 25 years, and only using the Raytheon for 5, so it's much more automatic for me to look at the top of the mast instead. It seems to be set up just fine. The uneven close-hauled angles I had on the Raytheon differed by only about 5 degrees or so. It's really kind of a small error, and was not always that obvious, and more of a nuisance than any thing. I think the initial calibration could have easily been off by that much. Changing the calibration by about 2 1/2 degrees so that the numbers matched on each tack I think is fine. I don't get the feeling that the Raytheon instrument has very good resolution down to a few degrees, due to the short vane it uses, which seems to fluctuate, and bounce around a lot. The calibration is also tricky. Then the damping adjustment settings you choose alter the displayed information as well. They do make a close-hauled indicator with an expanded screen, but if it uses the same vane I still would question just how accurate it could be. Correlating with the Windex is not that easy, what with slightly shifty winds, and the boat moving around and all. I'm not sure I can even reliably detect 5 degrees difference on the Windex. Anyway, I generally concentrate on the jib luff telltales once I'm on a close-hauled course and have the jib trimmed properly. I tend to use the wind indicators, vane or electronics, for rough information, not fine-tuning. I hope this makes sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the boat seems to me, to be pointing well on each tack. Enough so that I don't detect a problem from the Windex, and the different angles shown by the Raytheon seem most likely to just have been a calibration issue. I'm happy with the current setup. Now, we never did hear from the original poster on how he determined his sailing angles?
You lost me on that one
The Close Hauled Wind Indicator is very helpful for sailing downwind? Are we talking about the same thing? http://www.raymarine.com/raymarine/ProductDetail.asp?site=1§ion=2&page=233&product_id=460 It only reads 60 degrees off the wind direction. I just have the standard 360 degree wind system. But it's only marked in 10-degree increments, so how accurate is that? I agree that this one is helpfull down wind. The Close-hauled indicator seems to be just an added display and uses the same vane, it just displays an expanded scale to 60 degrees, with 5 degree increments. Is yours different? Anyway, they're fun toys!
The Close Hauled Wind Indicator is very helpful for sailing downwind? Are we talking about the same thing? http://www.raymarine.com/raymarine/ProductDetail.asp?site=1§ion=2&page=233&product_id=460 It only reads 60 degrees off the wind direction. I just have the standard 360 degree wind system. But it's only marked in 10-degree increments, so how accurate is that? I agree that this one is helpfull down wind. The Close-hauled indicator seems to be just an added display and uses the same vane, it just displays an expanded scale to 60 degrees, with 5 degree increments. Is yours different? Anyway, they're fun toys!
You lost me on that one
My display reads up wind and down wind. It's an ST-50 Series. I can only assume the ST-60 does the same thing. The info on that page does not go into much detail about it . Believe me that it works in both directions. The needle will read 0 at head to wind and DDW(stern to).
My display reads up wind and down wind. It's an ST-50 Series. I can only assume the ST-60 does the same thing. The info on that page does not go into much detail about it . Believe me that it works in both directions. The needle will read 0 at head to wind and DDW(stern to).
Jon W.
I AM talking about the optional Close Haul display NOT the standard Wind display. BOTH will give you AWA from any point of sail up wind or down. On the Close Haul display, with the expanded readout, the needle reads fom "0" to "60". As the AWA moves past 60 degrees, the needle continues to move down. When the AWA reaches 90 degrees(beam reach), the needle will point straight down. As the breeze continues to move aft the needle starts to move up again. When the needle reads 40, the AWA will be 140 relative; when it reads 30, the AWA will be 150 or 30 degrees off DDW. When the needle reaches straight up or "0" the breeze will be dead astern. As such, the expanded display of the Close Haul is useful both up wind AND down. Hope I've cleared this up.
I AM talking about the optional Close Haul display NOT the standard Wind display. BOTH will give you AWA from any point of sail up wind or down. On the Close Haul display, with the expanded readout, the needle reads fom "0" to "60". As the AWA moves past 60 degrees, the needle continues to move down. When the AWA reaches 90 degrees(beam reach), the needle will point straight down. As the breeze continues to move aft the needle starts to move up again. When the needle reads 40, the AWA will be 140 relative; when it reads 30, the AWA will be 150 or 30 degrees off DDW. When the needle reaches straight up or "0" the breeze will be dead astern. As such, the expanded display of the Close Haul is useful both up wind AND down. Hope I've cleared this up.
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