Try a Little Tenderness

[Gary Wyngarden]

I've been reading with interest the Boat of the Year evaluations in the January, 2006 issue of Cruising World. Some of the reviewers' comments and insights are very interesting. For example the Seguin 52 designed by Sparkman and Stephens and built by Lyman-Morse for a measely $1.6 million and a cost per displacement more than four times the Hunters they reviewed, has the engine smack in the middle of the saloon and a decibel level at cruising speed worse than all but two of the boats in the competition. Maybe if they charged $2 mil....But some of the reviewers comments leave you scratching your head about what they are thinking. For example they criticized the Bavaria 39, the Elan 384 and the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 42 DS for a tendency to stall out and round up. The reviewers indicated the breeze was a steady 16-18 knots with gusts into the 20's and the boats were flying full sails and genoas and close hauled at the time. That would make the apparent wind over 20 knots for sure. Gee there's some weather helm going on here. Well no bleep!They then proceeded to speculate about the boats' design limitations that may have caused the weather helm but indicated the problem went away if they shortened sail. Duh!!I'm always curious about the criticism of so-called tender boats. My Hunter 37.5 has a relatively high sail area to displacement ratio and with a sixty-foot mast has a definitely tall rig. In light to moderate air she sails like a witch with full sails. Get the apparent wind up to 17 or 18 knots, I need to start to shorten sail or she gets unruly. Once reefed down, she continues to perform like a champ at speed.Is the need to reef a deficient "tenderness" or merely a function of her high SA/D and tall rig. Is it a deficiency to need to reef in a fresh breeze if it's a cost of speed in light to moderate air? Would you rather have a boat that's sluggish in light air so you don't have to reef?Am I missing something here?Thanks for listening to my rant.Gary WyngardenS/V Wanderlust h37.5

 

[Ross]

Apparently they

don't know that when the wind blows twice as fast it blows four times as hard.

 

[Rick D]

Give Me Light Air Performance

Since the majority of West Coast sailing (SFO excepted) tends to light air, I'd take a big fractional rig any day and put up with need to reef. Seems the 'tenderness' issue as to a boat with performance SA/Disp ratio is like calling my new turbo Subie skittish compared to my old natural one. IMHO, duh. Rick D.

 

[David W]

IMHO, I think the reviewers make these

observations as a self-preservation effort."The new Beneelanter 45.3 rounds up in gusts over 40 kts when flying the 175% genny and full main." Everyone reads that, goes "hmmm that can't be good..."Next year they review a different boat, different conditions and will comment "The Hunbalan 38.2 tracked upwind perfectly in the 8 kt breezes on the sound during our test."Reader digest this and say "wow what a gem, must be perfectly designed!"It is all a game designed to sell magazines by pitting so-called "good" qualities against "bad" qualities. Every year its a new round of boats and qualities...Gary, like your Hunter, our Crown 34 also goes like a witch in winds up to about 18-20 kts. Then her 50 ft masthead rig and 4800 lb ballast catch up to each other and we reef. Then we stand up and take off again...As for deficiencies... naw not for me... I don't sail in SF Bay so performance in light & moderate conditions is more important to me, might be different for someone else...

 

[Russell10327]

Article in the Wal Street Journal

There was a classic article in the WSJ back on May 22 1998 that is a must read, see attached link. Now for the best part.....the hunter 376 in the article....is now our boat. We found out from the dealer (after we bought her, that she is famous, we also found and removed many items with NEALIX written on them)Do we reef at 18-20knots apparent? Yes Have we been caught out in 30-40 knots with gusts up to the high 50's and low 60's? Yes (double reefed main and no jib...and she did great)Russell

 

[David W]

Russell, that is a scream!

eating crackers @ 6 kts... I love it...

 

[Trevor - SailboatOwners.c]

excessive rocking and wild leaning

Great article - thanks for sharing!

 

[John Nantz]

Read Between the Lines

For the person with some knowledge about sailing and how things work, namely the physics of what makes a boat go, it behoves one to read a little between the lines. And Gary, as they say, - you done good!I couldn't agree more about the so-called tenderness "issue". Around here, in Puget Sound, a high-aspect rig with lots of sail area is a real plus. It's either that or motor and that's why there are so many power boats - the winds, most of the time, are light.The solution for winds up in the 20s apparent is reefing. This takes a bit of effort but not all that much, and besides, a little bit of exercise is good for the body. For the folks that don't like to reef the choice is a stubby mast with very little sail area >> motor all the time when the winds are light, or Plan B, get a powerboat.My feeling about the boats mentioned in the 38 to 40 foot range - with NEW sails - is they should have no problems sailing with a full main in the low 20s apparent (depending on jib/genoa size). I don't know what size the headsail is but most OEM sails tend to be on the minimum size vs larger size.A few years ago there was a review of popular trailerable boats and the Hunter was really poo-pooed because of the tenderness "issue". Unfortunately, as Gary stated, many people, even on this board, seemed to rely on the magazines "test report". Whether they were sailing newbies or just didn't understand the physics I have no clue but many believed what the magazine wrote - hook, line, and sinker.As sails age their draft increases and moves aft so the reefing criteria gradually lowers. Eventually the boat gets to the point where it feels like it wants to round up all the time or it gets knocked down easily in the puffs - that's a good sign the sails (1) are not properly trimmed, (2) need a recut, or (3) are worn out and should be replaced. The testers, with NEW sails, should have been having a great time. A high-aspect 42-footer should have been at the top of it's performance curve with a full main.Is it a deficiency to need to reef in a fresh breeze if it's a cost of speed in light to moderate air? My opinion: No.Would you rather have a boat that's sluggish in light air so you don't have to reef? Not "no" but Heck No!Gary, I don't think you're missing anything there. You know what it takes to sail and you are obviously thinking for yourself. People should read between the lines and integrate what they know with what the article says.

 

[tom h]

Great comments, but

So according to the Wall Street article, some guy with money comes in to buy this sailboat see. Doesn't do his homework, but has a college degree see. The saleman dazzles him with how fast this thing is, will make him look like the guy thinks he should look like in the Yachty Club see. The guy gets the deer in the headlights look and promptly buys something he had no business buying, especially in a yacht. And complains it's the boats fault? (too funny)I bet he took his net loss right to the Porche dealership so he can look good while eating crackers at 35 while in a car designed to go 200 MPH while going to the Yachty Club to tell everyone how bad the boat was. Reminds me of one of my old bosses with the same syndrome. Bought a Vette to look good in, then after going to the Chiropracter up to three times a week for a bad back, had someone tell him "It's the car, stupid!" Once he sold it his back problems disappeared. Some people should just not be allowed to have money, period.

 

[Tom S]

I think Gary is doing a huge diservice

to the Cruising World article and the people that reviewed the boats and wrote specifics.Like John Nantz says - people should "read between the lines" In fact the CW article were the first to say "as mentioned, there's always the simple solution: Reef early."Gary has left out a HUGE amount of what was written and paints an all together broad brush of what was written. Taken as a whole (and not leaving parts out) what was written was a very interesting analysis. It really wasn't as much a discussion about Sa/D (which is never easy to correlate between boats as some full roached Mains vs Bigger Jib boats always have a larger Sa/D -- Its specsmanship)There are lots of light and ultralight boats that don't spin out in heavier winds, its a matter of design and balance.I think the article did a great job discussing the dynamics of why a boat rounds up and they didn't lay all the blame on Sa/D. They discussed that many modern designs seem to carry beam well aft to accommodate large aft cabins or twin staterooms, which could lead to the more unbalanced sailboat.Below is a brief taken from the CW article----------------------------------------------Said Bill Lee: "I was talking to one designer who said so much weight ends up aft in these boats that even though they try to move the center of buoyancy back, they still need to put the keel forward to make the boat float where it's supposed to. The other way you place the keel is you figure out where the sail plan is and you put the keel under it. But if you're putting it farther forward to make the boat float right, the boat will have more weather helm."The other thing that happens when the keel is forward is to fashion the rudder so it generates more lift. But if the boat's wide aft and heels over, part of that big rudder lifts out of the water, the air ventilates down from the surface, and the boat spins out."----------------------------------------------The article is linked below

 

[Franklin]

My 376

Is the same model as the WS article and all the design characteristics are true to an extent, but a) I am not a wimp and actually love the heel b) know how to keep the right amount of sail out because I know my boat is designed to sail great in light wind and I like that.One time I do remember getting caught with too much sail out. I was singlehandling and at a broad reach going parallel to the shipping channel. I came across the crossing channel and saw that I had a makable but very small window to cross between two crossing tankers. I had full sails out and believe the true wind was 18 knots. I turned and started through the crossing channel and realized I was having a hard time keeping her going striaght because she wanted to round up into the wind. I didn't have far to go and didn't have any room to make adjustments and didn't have time either because of that small window (it was a busy day on the ship channel) so I just fought it all the way at just .4 knots below hull speed. It was a fun and exciting ride but the autopilot couldn't handle it and it was hard for me to see the tankers due to the bimini being in the way and I couldn't leave the helm.I realized that day that most of the time I can set my sails just right and the autopilot can handle it, but once in a while I may be stuck in a situation where I could use a below deck autopilot so that is on my list now of upgrades before I depart on my cruising trips.Anyway, maybe the design of the hull with the wide aft is the cause of the rounding up, but it doesn't matter to me because the benifit of the wide aft outweights the very few times it's a problem. I love my big ass boat and it is fast and I love how she handles the waves and I'm just dying to take her around the world and prove to everybody that it's not the boat, it's the driver.

 

[BobW]

Go Franklin!

;Dcheers,Bob

 

[Mesmerize]

How Ironic

I know this article is a few years old but I find it ironic that it quotes Glen Henderson who now designs the new Hunters. I have a Hunter 410. I haven’t had it that long (6 months) but it sails rock solid at 5-6 knots with a 20 knots wind and full sail. No noticeable weather helm and the autopilot can easily handle it in either wind or course mode. Since she has in-mast furling, reefing when necessary will be a piece of cake. Go Glen! Keep ‘em coming.

 

[John Nantz]

Interesting Article - But...

To give the H-31 a little credit - it was significantly smaller than the Tarten 34 and the Dufour 365 (35' 5"). Although length isn't everything, the 31 is also the lightest displacement, stepping from a 31-footer to a 34/5-footer you can definitely feel the difference. The 31 is going to move more.Also, the testers (I like Bill Lee's SC-50/52 so I've probably got some admitted bias here) noted the H31 has the worst of all worlds: a shoal draft keel, furling main, and a three-blade fixed prop. The shoal-draft keel requires more ballast to compensate for it shoal draft - true. Lead costs $ so did the builder sacrafice some weight here? - don't know. Furling main: standardly the furling main has a taller mast than a full-batten main which is more weight aloft; hence more tenderness. Three-blade (fixed) prop: this is going to add a lot more drag and when there is any need for acceleration the boat will not accelerate nearly as well as a feathering prop. The energy has to go somewhere so that energy will cause heeling; i.e., more of a tenderness feel.Given the H31's size and equipment it's no doubt that it has more of a tender feel. Add to that the fact that the H31 has the greatest sail area of the three by about 15% and, yes, it's going to definitely feel tender with the full main.Also, the furling main isn't as easy to trim as the standard mains are so that causes potential problems with heeling too. These "testers" appeared to be on a pretty tight time-line.Lee mentioned some key points - "the worst of all worlds". And I'm sure that he would have lots more to say if the magazine publisher would have room to print it and provide the time for the testers.My judgement or editorial comment is this is what I'd call a typical American magazine boat-test article - short on real substance. A windshield tour with some interesting observations, maybe, but a "Test"? - I don't think so, at least not in my opinion. By comparision, some of the European magazines go MUCH more into depth in their articles. Same with the Japanese magazines on cameras (vs US).Thanks for the link Tom. By the way, I wouldn't mind having TWO rudders. And there's my two cents!

 

[Capn Dave]

Is Hunter Advertising In Crusing World

along with Bendy-toes, Bavaria, etc? From reading the posts I guess not many of you are cruisers or liveabords. MOre of the weekend go fast sorts, which I am not knocking I got many skinned shins on Stars and Lightnings. Most of the go fast boats I have owned or crewed on have been, well let's say, Spartan on the inside. To cut down on weight. They did have well layed up hulls that didn't flex.Now they take the same boat make the hull thinner and the interior plush. Sort of like taking a formula car and a station wagon and putting them in a big bag, shaking it up and what comes out is is what you get. A fast car unsafe at any speed that has comfortable seats.If some one is paying me to advertise in my publication, am I goning to knock their product? No way Jose! I dont even take my boat out in less than 20 knot winds :>). Then again I cruise and liveabord. Again I am not putting down Hunters, etc. I am just throwing in a different perspective. I like go fast boats when I am on a delivery, I can usually get the job over sooner and get off the thing.Fair Winds and Happy New YearCap'n Dave

 

[Franklin]

Your boat?

You don't mention what your boat is.

 

[Tom S]

Mesmerize, I've gotta ask 'cos its bothering me

I know you've just got that Hunter 41 and still learning the "ropes" as they say (pun intended), but you commented that itsails at 5-6 knots with a 20 knots wind and full sail.Well maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty sure you could/should be going a lot faster that 5-6 kts in 20 kts of wind with a 41 foot boat. I'd say you should be going a lot closer to 8 kts. Now I'm not sure what angle of sail you were at or maybe you were slowing the boat down on purpose. Maybe you added a large amount of twist to the sails to spill some air (Fishermans reef), but I'd say most boats should do at least hull speed @ 20 kts. I bet if you look at the polars of the boat you'll see at least 8 kts (and I dare say easily over 9 in perfect flat conditions). I don't know the boat that well, maybe its the in mast roller furler, but like the article says "in most cases, if you reef, you don't even lose that much boat speed (I your case you might even pick up speed)" "It gets more comfortable, and it's easier to steer. You don't heel as much, so it feels weird; but if you look at the speedo, you're going almost as good as you were before (maybe faster). Plus, the boat's a whole lot more comfortable, and it steers a whole lot better."Just MHO

 

[Franklin]

I was wondering too.

In my 376 I can do about 7 knots with only 15 knots apparent, but the 376 has one of the largest sail to displacement ratios I've seen. Now I do have roller furling and a 110 jib so that's not his reason. I think he's just getting used to his boat. He'll have it up near 8 knots soon.Now if it's 20 knots true, I've usually only have my jib out and still doing 6+ knots at 40 AWA.

 

[Capn Dave]

Which One?

Ahoy Franklin;Not that is makes much dif. I currently own 3.A J24 (the sports car), A 33 Camper Nicholds, and a Cape Dory 36 ft. Which one do I like best? The Cape Dory, My house, Built like a tank. The Camper is kind of a cross between a race boat and cruiser. Faster than the Dory, but spartan on the inside, but not as much as the J boat.Fair Winds and Happy New YearCap'n Dave

 

[John Nantz]

Couple More Thoughts...

1. Sail area: In my previous post I mentioned about the difference in sail area between the H31 and the other boat. Well, sail area figures aren't necessarily exact because they use "neat-line". On a standard main the additional area caused by the roach isn't figured in, and on a furling main the reverse isn't subtracted. So.... the actual area of the cloth of the three boats in the H31's class is much closer than the SA numbers would suggest. Also, the dimensionless numbers based on "neat-line" SAs aren't exact, either, so that's something to consider when comparing numbers.2. For all, or most of, the boats "tested", the "Testers" seemed to consider the purpose for which the particular boat was built (I'd have to read the article again to check but I don't want to). With the H31, however, I don't remember the design purpose, or target buyer, was discussed in the article. Obviously the target buyer is a lot different than the other boats "tested".