Traveler or not

[HAL]

What it does.
As I understand it a traveler adjusts the horizontal alignment of the attachment points of the mainsheet.
What it does to the rig.
It allows you to set how much the boom will rise under pressure from no rising (boom and boat attachment directly aligned) to increasing amounts of rise (boom and boat attachment become further apart)
What it does for you.
A. It allows you to change angle of attack without changing sail shape.
B. It allows you to center the boom and still allow it to rise.
The question.
Is it true that on a boat without a traveler the A effect can be matched with a boomkicker and vang, but there is no way to have the B effect and isn't the A effect the major usage of a traveler?

 

[Don Guillette]

Hal: The traveler, along with the mainsheet, only performs one function and that is to control the ANGLE OF ATTACK. You could crank on the traveler all day long and it will not effect DRAFT DEPTH, DRAFT POSITION or TWIST.

To illustrate how the traveler works visualize your screen door and picture a track on the floor. On the bottom outside corner of the screen picture a pin that rides in the track. Now, when you open and close your screen door does the shape of the screen change? Of course it doesn't.

To state in simple terms, when you crank on the traveler moving it toward the center line of the boat you are powering up the boat. When you ease it down your killing the power. That is the reason that the first sail trim control you use to get the boat back on its feet is the traveler. Unfortunately, most sailors use the mainsheet. If that is all they have they have to do what they have to do but when you mess with the mainsheet your also messing with twist and draft position.

The primary sail trim control that prevents the boom from rising is the BOOM VANG. A boomkicker or boom vang is not a substitute for the traveler.

 

[Bill Roosa]

options on a vang

In order asked:
Yes, but the purchase is much reduced and so you tend to break booms or lines
Yes, a vang will not help you center the boom. However, there are a few cruisers that use the duel sheet method that has one attachment point on the boom end/middle and an attachment on the port and starboard toe rail. In a setup similar to a traveler (recirculated line) you can control both the angle on the boom and the amount of downward pressure you put on it over a much wider range of boom angles. Makes jibing REAL easy, acts as a preventer, gets rid of a complex traveler, and gives you something to stumble over when going forward:dance:.
The vang then only becomes useful when the sail is in the spreaders.
No, there is not one single sail trim device that only effects one aspect of the "set of the sails". Just changing the angle of attack with the traveler causes the sail to either rise or lower due to the higher or lower force that angle change causes. That change in angle will also effect the jib set BTW

 

[Bill Roosa]

Coments to Don

Hi Don.
I don't disagree with you in principal. The traveler is the primary AOA changer and the sheet does the sail shape thing. HAL is clearly asking an "advanced question" and looking for a solution to a traveler or sheet problem. The vang is a pure sheet. It can't control the AOA due to its lack of purchase upon the boom in that type of movement. You would necessarily need SOME way to control the AOA. The only other means besides a movable sheet end (traveler) is a widely spaced duel sheet...... you get the intent I hope.

See you on the waters

 

[tsmwebb]

I'm not sure what kind of boat Hal is thinking of but it might be worth knowing that boats with flexible rigs (particularly dinghies and small racing boats) use the vang to flatten the lower third or so of the mainsail as well as to control twist. Also on powerful boats with very roachy mains it may not be practical to pull the twist out with the vang alone. It may even be possible to break the boom with the vang before the top of the sail is fully on in some boats. So, in some upwind modes, the sheet is used for twist control, the traveler for angle of attack and the vang is idle. When overpowered some people "vang sheet" where the vang is used for twist control and to flatten the sail, the sheet is used for angle of attack and the traveler is mostly idle. Some boats are set-up without a traveler but with a vang and twin main sheets and they can use the vang for twist control or, when beating, balance the tension on the sheets to control twist.

--Tom.

 

[Stu Jackson]

A. It allows you to change angle of attack without changing sail shape.
B. It allows you to center the boom and still allow it to rise.
The question.
Is it true that on a boat without a traveler the A effect can be matched with a boomkicker and vang, but there is no way to have the B effect and isn't the A effect the major usage of a traveler?

No, a vang cannot do the work of a traveler. The mainsheet allows the boom to rise and isn't really part of the traveler question as you've asked it.

Yes, it is "THE" AOA mechanism.

 

[Don Guillette]

Hal: Has your questioned been answered?

Over the many years I've been running this forum I have to make some basic assumptions with each question (I'm not a mind reader) and unless the lister states otherwise, and that is we are looking at a standard masthead or fractional rig in the 28' to 33" range. That does not include dingy's or boats with dual sheets, or flex rigs or anything else - just a plain old vanila cruising boat with all the usual sail trim controls for the main and jib.

Also, I try to keep my answers simple and to the point (see Stu's answer) mainly so I don't confuse myself and get all tangled up in my underware. Also, I respect everyones views on all aspects of sail trim even though I don't agree with some of them. The problem for beginners to intermedaites is that it is difficult for them to sort through everything to get to the bottom line of their problem - remember what it was like when you were learning!! What I suggest to the beginner to intermediate is sort through all the comments and then try each one and see which one works for them.

 

[Mackinac]

No traveler?

I noticed at the Annapolis Boat Show that some of the very expensive, very high end new boats, such as Swans, have single point sheeting - no traveler. Is this an accepted compromise in the sake of simplicity that sacrifices sail trim or are there other features designed into these expensive toys that provide sail trim adjustnments?

 

[Don Guillette]

Re: No traveler?

Mackinac: Beats me. My first thought is they are trying to save a buck but who knows. If a mate can afford a Swam why would they quible about a few more bucks for a traveler.

The only function of the traveler is to adjust the angle of attack and I would not want to be without it. When the boat is heeling excessively the first sail trim control I reach for is the traveler. The reason I like the traveler is that in a heeling situation the shape of the sail is not effected. After I get control of the boat say from a large puff I can gradually dial back the power and don't have to worry about the shape of the sail unless something else has happened that I have to adjust for.

 

[Rick D]

Style?

Most of the high end daysailer types are mod-retro designs that follow a classic theme which is narrow beam, long overhangs, small deckhouse, non-overlapping fractional rigs, no stanchions or lifelines and... maybe no traveller. Just a guess. I had many boats with no traveller or one that wasn't easy to adjust under load. We used the vang for to adjust for twist for most of the time altho when centered, you had to use a topping lift to induce any or the mainsheet would take it out. FWIW, Merlin had a centerpost sheeting w/o a traveller until she was redone.

 

[tsmwebb]

Mackinac: Beats me. My first thought is they are trying to save a buck but who knows. If a mate can afford a Swam why would they quible about a few more bucks for a traveler.

Full on speculation here: maybe the boats Hal is looking at have captive reel winches for their mainsheets. These would be a lot more complex and likely less slick looking if on a traveler. Presumably the vang is used for twist control. Lots of presumption going on here Anyway, a boat rigged that way would loose the ability to bring the boom right up to centerline. A compormise they might go for in return for having totally autmatic trim and no sheet tails to upset the perfection of their cockpit.

--Tom.

 

[HAL]

Thanks

Thanks your ideas on vang and traveler.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Merlin

was a downwind flyer designed to race to Hawaii. It could be that yupwind sail controls (i.e., the traveler) were thought to be unnecessary for boats that "usually" don't go upwind. Just a SWAG.

 

[RichH]

Another use of a traveller ....
With combination of tight vang one can when overhwhelmed in a gust ... simply drop the traveller and 'blade-out' the main --- using just the aft sections of the mainsail and without allowing the mainsail to 'power-up' as happens when you dump the mainsheet and have no traveller/vang. In extremely gusty conditions, one simply 'plays' the traveller - blading-out as necessary to keep the boat on its feet - and leaving the mainsheet entirely alone.

 

[RichH]

Full on speculation here: maybe the boats Hal is looking at have captive reel winches for their mainsheets. These would be a lot more complex and likely less slick looking if on a traveler. Presumably the vang is used for twist control. Lots of presumption going on here Anyway, a boat rigged that way would loose the ability to bring the boom right up to centerline. A compormise they might go for in return for having totally autmatic trim and no sheet tails to upset the perfection of their cockpit.

--Tom.

Heavy rigid vangs with accessable control lines = "vang sheeting" ... no need for a traveller.
All leech control and twist is controlled by the vang ... then the only function of the mainsheet is to bring in or let out the boom - much faster than 'playing' a traveller. Plus with increased vang tension you can get increased mast bend (depending on the boat).
Usually when the winds are as forceful to need vang sheeting ... just start the trim sequence (tell tales, etc.) with the second batten from the top parallel to the boom and thats usually 'it' for twist at the higher wind ranges for an 'all purpose' set - mostly but not all.

On my sport-boat I primarily use vang sheeting, but on my crab-crusher I use a combo of both vang sheeting and traveller-playing. Vang sheeting doesnt work well when the winds are light and you need a 'soft' vang.

 

[tsmwebb]

Heavy rigid vangs with accessable control lines = "vang sheeting" ... no need for a traveller.
All leech control and twist is controlled by the vang ... then the only function of the mainsheet is to bring in or let out the boom - much faster than 'playing' a traveller.

I hear you and agree. The defect I was trying to point out is that you can't bring the boom right to centerline when you're vang sheeting. This removes a pointing mode (and a gassing the poor bugger you're lee bowing mode) for some boats amoung other things. Definitely a horses for courses thing. But, my feeling is the boats on show were not really race boats and that the lack of traveler was driven by esthetics...

--Tom.

 

[Don Guillette]

Tsmwebb: You stated "presumably the vang is used for twist control". That is not a presumption, it is a fact. The primary mainsail twist control is the boom vang. The secondary control is the mainsheet. Both of those controls also effect the draft position along with the cunningham (or main halyard) and the outhaul. When you crank on the boom vang or mainsheet you are moving the draft position forward. With the mainsheet you are also changing the angle of attack.

This is what you run into when you mess with your sail trim controls without some specific purpose in mind. Say your sailing along closehauled in about 10 knots and your sails are perfectly set for those conditions. Your draft depth is about 15% and your draft position is 50% with moderate twist. This is a perfect setup. Now, for no apparent reason, you decide to crank on the boom vang. What happens is some twist is taken out of the top of the sail and the boat gets a bit more power. Unfortunately, you have also moved the draft position forward to about 45%, which is less powerful. The effect you were after (whatever that happened to be) is now cancelled out unless you take steps to move the draft position back to 50%.

Sail trim is like balancing the 4 jets in a auto carb - when there were adjustable carbs!! Unless a sailor completely understands draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack plus the sail trim controls that effect those 4 elements, sail trim will never make any sense. Those elements are not rockets science. Once the sail light goes on you'll wonder why it was so confusing but your not alone - every beginner to intermediate goes through this learning process.

 

[tsmwebb]

Tsmwebb: You stated "presumably the vang is used for twist control". That is not a presumption, it is a fact. The primary mainsail twist control is the boom vang. The secondary control is the mainsheet.

Don: in the context of the query about boats without travelers I was "presuming" that a sailor would use the vang to reduce twist because it is, at best, difficult to set the main's angle of attack and twist to best advantage with only a sheet. I was soft peddling and simplifying in reaction to the "meeting sans coffee" of your post #7.

--Tom.

 

[paphman]

How long should the traveler bar be? Can it be to long as not to be effective? I sail a Catalina 22 and woule like to make the bar a bit longer. I use the traveler alot, and think it is one of the most usefull adjustments on the boat.
Thanks

Dale

 

[tsmwebb]

How long should the traveler bar be? Can it be to long as not to be effective? I sail a Catalina 22 and woule like to make the bar a bit longer.

The traveler track on my boat is about 20 feet long. That might be a bit more than you'd want on your boat . All else being equal I think you want as much traveler as you can conveniently install. With a really long traveler you want a bit of an arc in the track or you can move the mainsheet attachment aft of the plane of the traveler so the sheet isn't trimmed by easing the traveler. But, that's not likely to be an issue for you.

--Tom.