Traveler and Genoa

[Shane82]

Hey guys and gals,
Always thinking of ways to improve my 25.5, and as I have been looking around and reading all the recent post on travelers in the Sail Trim Forum. I see the traveler I have, that I also hardly used... is set up a bit different than the ones I see on the site and other boats. Instead of control lines used to move the traveler car mine has two "Bumper cars" that lock into the track via a pin I can pull up to move them, the car itself I have to actually push or pull on the fiddle block then set the bumper. It being so hands on I usually have just set it to center and used the main sheet for adjustments. I am aiming at single handing the boat. I have one pic in my album from the stern of the boat, not a great shot but you get an idea of the traveler location.
Also I was wondering, the block for my genoa sheet is in a fixed position on the toe rail, the sheet going over the lifeline. If I were to relocate the block location closer to the boat centerline would it help, such as those boats with a genny sheet track and car system. I am thinking if I change the angle it may take some strain on the lifeline and help sail shape. As is only when I am close hauled is the sheet not riding on the lifeline. If you look at the pics you can see the blocks are about in line with the rearmost edge of the aft porthole. Not sure but I think she has a 150 genoa on her.

I am new at this, so be nice just trying to get her setup right and learn as I go.

 

[Alan]

First, welcome to the forum. You're going to find there are a ton of folks here willing to help and give advise. There are hundreds of years of combined experience from all kinds of sailors here. You should know from the start, there is no such thing as a 'stupid' question. There are only questions waiting for answers.

Your traveler suffers from the same malady as the pin type genoa sheet cars, they are basically useless and unusable. You need to change your traveler setup to a 'control line' traveler so you can make the adjustments quickly and easily when needed. The same applies to your genoa sheet block. That block needs to be replaced with a line adjustable track system for the very same reason. All those boats with pin type genoa lead cars never get their leads adjusted and therefore almost never get their trim correct.
I would advise you contact Garhauer Marine and ask about their traveler and genoa tracks for your boat. They have the best gear for the best price anywhere.
phone 909 985 9993
website http://garhauermarine.com/index.cfm

 

[tcoursey]

25.5 traveler

I to have a 25.5 and have wished to replace the traveler setup. Has anyone with a 25.5 did a similar replacement. Let us know the parts you used. I'd like to be able to keep the track(so no drilling) and just be able to add a adjustable car with blocks as most other boats have.

 

[tcoursey]

note to shane

I single hand my 25.5 most of the time. You can adjust the traveler you just have to do everything else first. To save time after a tack I go ahead and setup the lazy jib sheet back on the wench so it's ready to go. So when I tack I put the tiller over and as it comes around I go ahead and grab the new working sheet for the jib and release the new lazy sheet off the wench. After I've got the jib over I can then adjust the traveler and main sheet to my satisfaction. It helps to have a tiller tamer so you can release the tiller while you get everything setup on the new tack. Then go ahead and setup the lazy sheet back on the wench. With pactice you find you have more than two arms working at a time.

 

[tcoursey]

try these guys

let us know what you end up doing

http://www.rigrite.com/

 

[Don Guillette]

Shane82: Thank you for participating on the sail trim forum. Alan, as usual, is right on with his advise. Don't be afraid to ask questions - that's how all of us learned how to sail. None of us were born with the knowledge of how to sail a boat.

First, you have to understand what you're adjusting (draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack) and what sail trim controls on your boat adjust each of those elements. The primary sail trim control for angle of attack is the traveler. Angle of attack is ALL the traveler adjusts. The secondary sail trim control for angle of attack is the mainsheet. Unfortunately, the mainsheet also adjust draft position, and twist so when you mess with it you might be adjusting things that you had not planned on.

Based on what I've just told you, I'm sure you've already seen the problem with centering your boom and adjusting angle of attack with the mainsheet.

Next is the fairlead situation. With a 150 jenny I assume you have a masthead rig. The engine of a masthead rig is the jib. With the mainsail some sail trim controls adjust some of the 4 elements I outlined. With the jib, the fairleads adjusts ALL 4 elements so you can see that locking it in place is like the broken clock, which is correct twice a day. Your setting is correct for some point of sail and wind condition and wrong for all others.

To get 100% efficiency from your boat you have to follow Alan's advise. Get an adjustable traveler and fairlead system.

 

[sinnettc]

If your genoa sheet runs over the lifeline most of the time then would you be better off running it UNDER the lifeline? I've seen Catalina 25's where it goes under instead of over.

 

[Shane82]

Thanks for all the replies! I am looking at harkens windward sheeting 3:1 setup tad pricey but sounds like it would be a great help as I hope to get started in the local races eventually. The genoa tracks may have to wait, first I'm adding a boom vang. From what I've read the vang should help reduce heel in moderate wind when on a beat by flattening the sail when tightened and reducing drag ....correct?
There's a lot to keep track of I just learned about the outhaul which controls the clew of the mainsail affecting draft position and depth I think. For now while I learn the traveler, vang, and sheets is there a neutral position I can adjust the outhaul to? It isn't run to the cockpit at the moment so I can't really adjust it under sail anyways. I do not go out in anything over 15 knts yet, still get a bit nervous til I get a better grasp.

I'm taking notes and trying to remeber all of this. Don's guide and chart is in my near future. Can't wait to get her setup so I can really learn to go fast the right way.

 

[Don Guillette]

Shane82: I hear this all the time from beginners - they start out the conversation by saying they want to learn how to adjust this or that sail trim control for the main or jib. My answer is very simple and always the same. Over the years I've probably repeated it a million times but that is the nature of the SAIL TRIM FORUM and I never get tired of answering the question. The problem with your approach, and all beginners, is that you are putting the cart in front of the horse. Until you understand WHAT elements of sail trim your sail trim controls are adjusting you're just guessing.

For example, the main function of the boom vang is to adjust TWIST. It also is one of the sail trim controls on the main for adjusting DRAFT POSITION. The outhauls main function is to adjust DRAFT DEPTH. It is also one of the sail trim controls used to adjust DRAFT POSITION.

On the jib, your sail trim controls are adjusting 4 elements and your fairleads is used to adjust ALL FOUR ELEMENTS!!! You can see how important that sail trim control is. With a 150 I think you have a masthead rig and the engine of that boat is the jib. So putting off the purchase of a adjustable fairlead system in favor of a boom vang is not the order of purchase I would use.

Lastly, the cost of my book and chart is less than a 30 pack of Sam Adams and we all know what happens to the Sam Adams once you drink it - it goes over the rail or into the head. Not so with my stuff. You can take all the notes you want but you'll only get the info you need to sail your boat to 100% efficiency in dribs and draps. Why waste your time taking notes when I've put all the info you'll need to move from beginner to high intermediate in one book and chart? You also must learn sail trim adjustment in an orderly step by step manner and my book does that for you.

The bottom line is with your new knowledge, once you obtain it, you'll make good sail trim control buying decisions.

With the wind there is one constant and that is it is never constant. You may find yourself in a situation where the wind pipes up to over 15 knots in the blink of an eye. Wouldn't it be nice to know how to deal with that situation before it happens? Of course it would.

 

[OldCat]

I guess that I am going to take a different perspective on this. Mainly that with an older boat you may decide that not every mod is really worth paying for.

I have the pin style genoa sheet cars. I am not going to modify this part of my boat. IMHO, for a small inexpensive boat like mine that is not raced - the cost and clutter of adjustable genoa cars is not worth it. I do adjust my cars - generally by doing it on the unloaded side & doing the other side after a tack.

Depending on your keel and genoa sheeting angle you may not need a traveller at all. Pulling the traveller to windward is not going to help if the rest of the boat cannot sail high enough to use a main pulled in that far. You can always vang sheet for when you sail off the wind, or to sheet out in a gust. Some of us have to vang sheet, because of the location of our travellers. Also, at least until I buy a new Genoa, pulling the traveller to windward won't help my boat go upwind - it just stalls the leech telltales. You need a vang even if you have a traveller.

I studied Don's guide, as well as other sail trim articles. I can get the telltales to flow - though the fine points of telltale flick rate are still very hard for me. I'd get the tell tales flowing before you spend money - of if you can't get them to flow - figure out why and then decide to spend the bucks where it will do the most good. Having the genoa sheeted to a fixed location is not good - I'd guess that is where I'd spend money first, on track and probably just pin cars.

Something smaller than a 150 might be better for most sailing & easier to tack. A question that maybe Rich H or Don can chime in on - what will a 150 Genny do to pointing as opposed to a smaller head sail?

OC

 

[Shane82]

The sail trim book and chart is underway to me. Yes the 25.5 is a masthead rig. I'll prioritize the genny track. When I get home my first task is adding and/or replacing all the tell-tails on the genny and main. The boat is a work in progress. Btw I was wondering the same as old cat if maybe a 135 would be more manageable without a major sacrifice in performance potential.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Joe]

I heartily agree with OLD CAT in your case. The Harken windward sheeting car is total over kill and not wort the money to you... instead... why don't you just get rid of the stoppers and rig two control lines to each side of the slide.. then put a cleat at either end of the track.... sure you won't have ball bearing action, but you will be able to pull the traveller up and cleat it with one hand... which is your major complaint. And you can spray it liberally with a teflon lubricant to keep it slippery. I've attached picture of my car system that you could easily adapt to your existing set up.(Just no ball bearing car)

Regarding the jib lead... run the sheet outside the lifeline, especially if you're using the genny. That way you'll be OFF the lifeline except when you're close hauled...and if you're sailing close hauled you're probably beating upwind.. going back and forth... so you can re route the lazy sheet inside the lifeline before tacking over.. then do the other if you keep beating. So that solves your second problem.

At some point in time you will want to install a short jib lead track.. but it's location is conditional to your sail and the standing rigging. In this case I would consult a sailmaker or call Hunter customer service for some possible solutions. In any case, the Garhaurer system is great, I have it on my boat... but this is all you really need to effectively trim you headsail... $43 a piece at garhauer.

Finally....... if you mount a track... DO NOT install Harken track.. it is proprietary and will not work with any thing but Harken... what you want is 1" flat "T" track. It goes for about $8/foot. In the same breath I'll remind you that the Harken traveller cars will only work on Harken track....

 

[Shane82]

Looking at the original brochure on the hunter site, apparently the genoa tracks were an option, so they should have some insight on them. I have also decided against the harken windward car. Been digging around and apparently in light air it gets "confused" and also doesn't work well if the attached fiddle block has a cam on it like mine does. Oh and its over $300 for just the car. Finally going home after a 21 day hitch on the tugboat so weather permitting I'll be on the lake practicing again!

Thanks again!

 

[OldCat]

Shane,

Digging around - I see that your Hunter had two keel options - out of curiosity - which keel do you have?

OC

 

[Shane82]

Sorry, been busy. I have the Shoal Draft Version.