I just purchased a 1988 h23 and trailered is 1000 miles home. I noticed that the keel sits on plywood and the sides of the hull on 2x4 carpeted bunks. It seems to have a lot of weight on the keel as the plywood it is sitting on is quite bowed. Should the bunk rails be raised? How much weight should be on the bunk rails and how much on the keel? Can most of the weight sit on the cast iron keel of this boat? Will it damage anything if it does? By the way..... I pulled the boat with a S10 Blazer 4.3 L. V6 and it towed FANTASTIC. With 250 lb. tounge weight I could cruise the turnpikes at 65 MPH and could NOT make it sway.
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MIke B
trailer adjustment,
The majority of the weight is on the keel, the bunks really pretty much keep the boat from falling from side to side, as it were, so yes it will support the weight, you may need to replace the plywood, underneath the keel, it could have rotted, due to a number of things, great boat we have had ours long time and love, it , lots of info here, so check back frequently Mike mmsailor@aol.com
The majority of the weight is on the keel, the bunks really pretty much keep the boat from falling from side to side, as it were, so yes it will support the weight, you may need to replace the plywood, underneath the keel, it could have rotted, due to a number of things, great boat we have had ours long time and love, it , lots of info here, so check back frequently Mike mmsailor@aol.com
I agree
Most of the weight rests on the keel, so you may want to beef up the wood that it rests on if you are going to be doing a lot of hauling. There are several good posts in the archives regarding modifications to the trailer that will make getting your boat back onto the trailer a snap at the end of the day. Check the archives also for various mast raising systems (these are the worst two traits of an otherwise great boat). Enjoy! Peter s/v Raven
Most of the weight rests on the keel, so you may want to beef up the wood that it rests on if you are going to be doing a lot of hauling. There are several good posts in the archives regarding modifications to the trailer that will make getting your boat back onto the trailer a snap at the end of the day. Check the archives also for various mast raising systems (these are the worst two traits of an otherwise great boat). Enjoy! Peter s/v Raven
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Ward Niffenegger
Thanks! This prompts another question
Thanks for the quick response. I sure feel better knowing I didn't damage anything in the tow. Given the fact that most weight rests on the keel and the bottom of the keel is flat, why couldnt I replace the plywood with a series of rollers spaced a few inches apart. This would assist greatly in moving the boat forward on the trailer in those pesky shallow launch ramps that are common around here. I checked the archives, but no one has talked about rollers on the keel. I did see a post that said NOT to use rollers on the bunks due to the thin walls of the hull at that point. thanks again
Thanks for the quick response. I sure feel better knowing I didn't damage anything in the tow. Given the fact that most weight rests on the keel and the bottom of the keel is flat, why couldnt I replace the plywood with a series of rollers spaced a few inches apart. This would assist greatly in moving the boat forward on the trailer in those pesky shallow launch ramps that are common around here. I checked the archives, but no one has talked about rollers on the keel. I did see a post that said NOT to use rollers on the bunks due to the thin walls of the hull at that point. thanks again
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MIke B
rollers,
Hi again, I had previously asked Hunter Marine about putting roller bunks to replace existing bunks and was given a very firm no, My second idea was to install a series of rollers under keel, abut could not find anyo;ne who had done this, we also have shallow ramps, and the consensus seemed to be I was the only one who had experienced the problem, there are posts regarding drop axles etc, read archives, Still love the boat, Mike ,
Hi again, I had previously asked Hunter Marine about putting roller bunks to replace existing bunks and was given a very firm no, My second idea was to install a series of rollers under keel, abut could not find anyo;ne who had done this, we also have shallow ramps, and the consensus seemed to be I was the only one who had experienced the problem, there are posts regarding drop axles etc, read archives, Still love the boat, Mike ,
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Dave Condon
Rollers
Too often I have seen where rollers were used and as a result, the hull indentated badly. I have purchased trailers with rollers for some folks but the key is multiple use which most of the time, the trailer mfg. does not provide. Another possibility is keel tray rollers which will cost you to modify the trailer. If you use any rollers at all, just remember that the boat will roll very easily backwards if not secured correctly which one individual failed to do and repairing that boat was not fun. Crazy Dave
Too often I have seen where rollers were used and as a result, the hull indentated badly. I have purchased trailers with rollers for some folks but the key is multiple use which most of the time, the trailer mfg. does not provide. Another possibility is keel tray rollers which will cost you to modify the trailer. If you use any rollers at all, just remember that the boat will roll very easily backwards if not secured correctly which one individual failed to do and repairing that boat was not fun. Crazy Dave
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Ward
Keel tray roller
Dave, Great points. I was referring to rollers only for the keel. Rolling backwards would definately be a bad thing. Based on everyones input thus far, I think I will just replace the plywood tray where the keel sits for now. Since I don't know how much problem getting it off and on the trailer will be at my launch ramp, I should just wait and get some experience before I start jumping to fixes. Thanks everyone, I at least now know what some viable options would be in case I want to modify things.
Dave, Great points. I was referring to rollers only for the keel. Rolling backwards would definately be a bad thing. Based on everyones input thus far, I think I will just replace the plywood tray where the keel sits for now. Since I don't know how much problem getting it off and on the trailer will be at my launch ramp, I should just wait and get some experience before I start jumping to fixes. Thanks everyone, I at least now know what some viable options would be in case I want to modify things.
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John Thomas
Trailoring problems
Ward, Congradulations, you've got yourself a great boat. I'm happy to hear that you were able to tow it for such a great distance without any problems. I have made a modification to my trailor to help with launching and loading in shallow water. I replaced the standard 2500 lb rated staight axle with a 3500 lb rated "drop" axle. This lowered the boat/trailor about 5-6 inches. This I beleive will help. I have had little success towing my 1986 H23 since I purchased it last June. I towed it to the marina using my Izuzu Rodeo with a rated tongue weight of 3500 lbs, (this was before the axle change). The boat swayed scarily behind me if I went over 55 mph on the Intersate and would really get moving when a big truck passed me. Not looking forward to trailoring back home, I rented a slip and left it in the water for a few months. I enlisted the help of my father and his big F350 van to help me. Thinking that the van, being larger than my Rodeo, would do better...It did not (even with the drop axle). My question to you is: Why did yours tow so much better? Did you put extra weight forward or is your trailor set up differently? Would it be possible for you to send a photo of your boat on the trailor with details of the bow area. I feel if I could get the boat a little further forward, that would put more weight on the tongue and this might help. How did you measure the tongue weight? My email address is jthomas@access1.com. Drop my a line and let me know what you think and how the sailing is going Tanks and enjoy, John
Ward, Congradulations, you've got yourself a great boat. I'm happy to hear that you were able to tow it for such a great distance without any problems. I have made a modification to my trailor to help with launching and loading in shallow water. I replaced the standard 2500 lb rated staight axle with a 3500 lb rated "drop" axle. This lowered the boat/trailor about 5-6 inches. This I beleive will help. I have had little success towing my 1986 H23 since I purchased it last June. I towed it to the marina using my Izuzu Rodeo with a rated tongue weight of 3500 lbs, (this was before the axle change). The boat swayed scarily behind me if I went over 55 mph on the Intersate and would really get moving when a big truck passed me. Not looking forward to trailoring back home, I rented a slip and left it in the water for a few months. I enlisted the help of my father and his big F350 van to help me. Thinking that the van, being larger than my Rodeo, would do better...It did not (even with the drop axle). My question to you is: Why did yours tow so much better? Did you put extra weight forward or is your trailor set up differently? Would it be possible for you to send a photo of your boat on the trailor with details of the bow area. I feel if I could get the boat a little further forward, that would put more weight on the tongue and this might help. How did you measure the tongue weight? My email address is jthomas@access1.com. Drop my a line and let me know what you think and how the sailing is going Tanks and enjoy, John
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Gary Adams
Hey...I Want to know too
Ward, I too am curious of your trailer setup. Like John, I have had lots of problems towing. I have several Dodge trucks both duallys. I get a tremedous amount of sway. I would appreciate it if you would send me pix as well should they be available.gladams@mtco.com How have others checked the tongue on their trailers?
Ward, I too am curious of your trailer setup. Like John, I have had lots of problems towing. I have several Dodge trucks both duallys. I get a tremedous amount of sway. I would appreciate it if you would send me pix as well should they be available.gladams@mtco.com How have others checked the tongue on their trailers?
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Ward Niffenegger
Trailer tongue Weight
I will take some pictures when it gets light out, but in the meantime here is a description. DETERMINING TONGUE WEIGHT I used an old bathroom scales. I put the front wheel on the scale and read the weight. This trailer has had a new drop leg wheel replaced so I don't know if the original was as far forward as mine. This one is about 18 inches back from the ball hitch so it gives me a fairly accurate reading. The rule-of-thumb for tongue weight is 10% of your total trailer weight. Hence, you should ideally have 300 lbs. of tongue weight. (I don't think this trailer needs that much) MY SET UP I had only 150 lbs of tongue weight when I measured it. I had the boat as far forward as it would go. I felt this was a bit lite on weight so they were only two choices. Add other weight to the front of the boat/trailer or move the axle back on the trailer. Being 1000 miles from home I added 100 lbs. to the front of the boat. I had my very heavy tool box so I put it down in the anchor locker. This added about 75 lbs of net weight to the tongue. SO, in total, I had a little over 200 lbs on the tongue where it attached to the vehicle. MY INEXPERIENCED OPINION I would play around with the tongue weight by putting weight in the anchor locker or strapping weight on around the trailer winch area then try it. The most common cause of trailer sway is weight distribution. Trailer design isn't brain surgury, but each design can handle a little different. The standard h23 trailer is a little on the light side, but is certainly adequate for the job. OTHER FACTORS AFFECTING SWAY. I will mention these BUT it is very unlikely it is your cause.Trailer wheel alignment can cause major sway. Wheel camber and tow-in or dog-tracking could make it impossible to track behind the vehicle correctly. About the only way these would be off is if the axle is bent (even slightly) or not perfectly aligned
I will take some pictures when it gets light out, but in the meantime here is a description. DETERMINING TONGUE WEIGHT I used an old bathroom scales. I put the front wheel on the scale and read the weight. This trailer has had a new drop leg wheel replaced so I don't know if the original was as far forward as mine. This one is about 18 inches back from the ball hitch so it gives me a fairly accurate reading. The rule-of-thumb for tongue weight is 10% of your total trailer weight. Hence, you should ideally have 300 lbs. of tongue weight. (I don't think this trailer needs that much) MY SET UP I had only 150 lbs of tongue weight when I measured it. I had the boat as far forward as it would go. I felt this was a bit lite on weight so they were only two choices. Add other weight to the front of the boat/trailer or move the axle back on the trailer. Being 1000 miles from home I added 100 lbs. to the front of the boat. I had my very heavy tool box so I put it down in the anchor locker. This added about 75 lbs of net weight to the tongue. SO, in total, I had a little over 200 lbs on the tongue where it attached to the vehicle. MY INEXPERIENCED OPINION I would play around with the tongue weight by putting weight in the anchor locker or strapping weight on around the trailer winch area then try it. The most common cause of trailer sway is weight distribution. Trailer design isn't brain surgury, but each design can handle a little different. The standard h23 trailer is a little on the light side, but is certainly adequate for the job. OTHER FACTORS AFFECTING SWAY. I will mention these BUT it is very unlikely it is your cause.Trailer wheel alignment can cause major sway. Wheel camber and tow-in or dog-tracking could make it impossible to track behind the vehicle correctly. About the only way these would be off is if the axle is bent (even slightly) or not perfectly aligned
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Tom
adjust winch upright?
Guys, On my 240 trailer the winch upright assembly is U-bolted to the tongue thing. So you can slide/adjust it forward/backward to play with the tongue weight. If yours is welded looks like you'll have to adjust the axle to achieve the same result. Swaying is DEFINITELY caused by insufficient tongue weight and Ward is right, it should be about 10% of total. I too use an old bathroom scale to measure. Good luck Tom
Guys, On my 240 trailer the winch upright assembly is U-bolted to the tongue thing. So you can slide/adjust it forward/backward to play with the tongue weight. If yours is welded looks like you'll have to adjust the axle to achieve the same result. Swaying is DEFINITELY caused by insufficient tongue weight and Ward is right, it should be about 10% of total. I too use an old bathroom scale to measure. Good luck Tom
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Ward Niffenegger
most accurate tongue weight
If you want to get the most accurate tongue weight using your bathroom scales, cut a 2x4 about the same length as your ball hitch is from the ground. Then crank up your tongue till you can sit the 2x4 on edge on the scale. Lower the tongue onto the 2x4 and take a reading. This will be weighing the tongue at the ball receptacle and represtent the actual weight on the hitch when towing. Not fancy but effective.
If you want to get the most accurate tongue weight using your bathroom scales, cut a 2x4 about the same length as your ball hitch is from the ground. Then crank up your tongue till you can sit the 2x4 on edge on the scale. Lower the tongue onto the 2x4 and take a reading. This will be weighing the tongue at the ball receptacle and represtent the actual weight on the hitch when towing. Not fancy but effective.
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MIke B
trailer sway
I have towed our 23 for years and no problems with sway, give the bathroom scale a try, and change weight as advised, one problem comes to mind though, talking to truck drivers who pulled the doubles u see on interstate, they positively state , disregard, what trailer is doing look straight ahead, , ie the trailer starts to sway a small amount and we try to adjust our driving to correct, we over correct and are finallly goin down the road with white nuckles and a swaying boat, put it on trailer, secure it fore and aft, and go down the road remembering that u have good insurance, the more u tow the easier it becomes, part of the sailing adventure, Mike ,
I have towed our 23 for years and no problems with sway, give the bathroom scale a try, and change weight as advised, one problem comes to mind though, talking to truck drivers who pulled the doubles u see on interstate, they positively state , disregard, what trailer is doing look straight ahead, , ie the trailer starts to sway a small amount and we try to adjust our driving to correct, we over correct and are finallly goin down the road with white nuckles and a swaying boat, put it on trailer, secure it fore and aft, and go down the road remembering that u have good insurance, the more u tow the easier it becomes, part of the sailing adventure, Mike ,
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Keith Smoot ,S/V Gwaihir, 1987 H-23
Modifing stock trailer for H-23
When I bought my 87 H-23 I could not pull it with my full sized GMC Sierra picup with a 5 liter engine, the trailer swayed too much. I too tried to weigh the tounge, but my bathroom scales maxed out(cheap scales). I then made brackets to mount the rudder and 5-hp outboard on the trailer, at the cross member under the bow. This gave me a great way to transport these items, but did not stop the sway. Time to move the boat. First unload the boat. My local marina let me keep Gwaihir in the water overnight for $10.00, well worth it. Now is the time to replace the rotten bottom board with 3/4 inch plywood, at least exterior, if marine grade is not available in your area. Move the tounge winch as for forward as possicle on the tounge, mine moved 9 3/4 inches, just enough. The bunker boards lined up better, the tounge was heaver, and the trailer pulls great. I also made a funnel for the keel. With the boat on the trailer, mark around the keel. Now mark another line one inch outside this outline. I stacked 2X6's three high near the front of the keel,on the 1 in" mark,in a "V" shape, to guide the keel into place. I also shaped the 2X6's to be wider at the top to help center the keel. Everything was bolted with 1/2" threaded rod, with the washers and bolts recessed below the wood to prevent problems. If anyone is near Raliegh,NC the trailer can be seen at Crazy Dave's place, also know as American Marine and Sail. That is if Dave hasn't finished my bottom paint YET! Keith Smoot snark11@aol.com
When I bought my 87 H-23 I could not pull it with my full sized GMC Sierra picup with a 5 liter engine, the trailer swayed too much. I too tried to weigh the tounge, but my bathroom scales maxed out(cheap scales). I then made brackets to mount the rudder and 5-hp outboard on the trailer, at the cross member under the bow. This gave me a great way to transport these items, but did not stop the sway. Time to move the boat. First unload the boat. My local marina let me keep Gwaihir in the water overnight for $10.00, well worth it. Now is the time to replace the rotten bottom board with 3/4 inch plywood, at least exterior, if marine grade is not available in your area. Move the tounge winch as for forward as possicle on the tounge, mine moved 9 3/4 inches, just enough. The bunker boards lined up better, the tounge was heaver, and the trailer pulls great. I also made a funnel for the keel. With the boat on the trailer, mark around the keel. Now mark another line one inch outside this outline. I stacked 2X6's three high near the front of the keel,on the 1 in" mark,in a "V" shape, to guide the keel into place. I also shaped the 2X6's to be wider at the top to help center the keel. Everything was bolted with 1/2" threaded rod, with the washers and bolts recessed below the wood to prevent problems. If anyone is near Raliegh,NC the trailer can be seen at Crazy Dave's place, also know as American Marine and Sail. That is if Dave hasn't finished my bottom paint YET! Keith Smoot snark11@aol.com
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Keith Smoot ,S/V Gwaihir, 1987 H-23
keel/bunker board weight distribution
When I first bought Gwaihir, the bottom board was rotten. I called the factory (sorry the phone # is at work). The engineer I talked to said about 60% of the boat's weight goes on the keel, the other 40% distributed between the two bunker boards. If plywood thicker than 3/4" is used for the bottom board too much weight is transfered to the keel, causing hull stress. With a 3/4" board, I raised the bunker boards as high as I could get them, and have had no problems. Keith Smoot, snark11@aol.com
When I first bought Gwaihir, the bottom board was rotten. I called the factory (sorry the phone # is at work). The engineer I talked to said about 60% of the boat's weight goes on the keel, the other 40% distributed between the two bunker boards. If plywood thicker than 3/4" is used for the bottom board too much weight is transfered to the keel, causing hull stress. With a 3/4" board, I raised the bunker boards as high as I could get them, and have had no problems. Keith Smoot, snark11@aol.com
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Jim Kolstoe
stabilzer bars
Ward: The sway problem seems to be endemic with this boat/trailer combination. I experience it any time I try to tow faster than 45 mph, unless I have stablizer bars hooked up. I scrounged as set of easy lift (brand) stablizer bars off a travel trailer. With the bars on, I can tow the boat as fast as the law allows, and maybe faster, and it follows me like its on rails. Without the bars, it nearly put me and my 1/2 ton suburban sideways in the oncoming lane. I suspect tonge weight is the problem, since I discovered I could one-hand the tonge to my chest level - and I know I'm not that strong. Jim Kolstoe h23 Kara's Boo
Ward: The sway problem seems to be endemic with this boat/trailer combination. I experience it any time I try to tow faster than 45 mph, unless I have stablizer bars hooked up. I scrounged as set of easy lift (brand) stablizer bars off a travel trailer. With the bars on, I can tow the boat as fast as the law allows, and maybe faster, and it follows me like its on rails. Without the bars, it nearly put me and my 1/2 ton suburban sideways in the oncoming lane. I suspect tonge weight is the problem, since I discovered I could one-hand the tonge to my chest level - and I know I'm not that strong. Jim Kolstoe h23 Kara's Boo
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Ward Niffenegger
Sway Bars
Your sway bars surely will help. However, if you can lift the tongue as easy as you describe, you are woefolly light for tongue weight. The sway bars are merely masking your light tongue weight. If you add weight on the tongue and install the bars for long trips, you have the best of it.
Your sway bars surely will help. However, if you can lift the tongue as easy as you describe, you are woefolly light for tongue weight. The sway bars are merely masking your light tongue weight. If you add weight on the tongue and install the bars for long trips, you have the best of it.
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Guy LeClair
Bunker board posts
Interesting note earlier on weight distribution to the side bunkers - using my trailer for the first time last fall, I noticed that the bolts supporting the posts are not through bolts, but merely apply pressure on the posts for friction to sustain the vertical load. One post even came out of its guide pipe on the way to the boat. I am worried that, in situations of emergency turning or swaying, the increased load on the outward bunker would cause posts to slip down, and allow the boat to overturn. First thing I will do this spring is drill through posts and pipes and install through bolts. On the subject of swaying, I have a Volvo 740 wagon and did great on a 2 hour drive from Lake Champlain: no swaying whatsoever. I suspect as many pointed out that I had the proper tongue weight. I was aware of the required distribution to start with: I am the one who, some may remember, had to back my boat into a tree hard, after pulling it out of the water, to push it forward against the front vee roller. Had I known about this site, and its wealth of trailering know-how, I would have neatly floated my boat into place, but instead I winched so hard in a shallow ramp that I bent the trailer and actually cracked half the weld length between the triangular frame and the tongue beam. So the second thing I do this spring is call the welding shop. Guy LeClair Mocador
Interesting note earlier on weight distribution to the side bunkers - using my trailer for the first time last fall, I noticed that the bolts supporting the posts are not through bolts, but merely apply pressure on the posts for friction to sustain the vertical load. One post even came out of its guide pipe on the way to the boat. I am worried that, in situations of emergency turning or swaying, the increased load on the outward bunker would cause posts to slip down, and allow the boat to overturn. First thing I will do this spring is drill through posts and pipes and install through bolts. On the subject of swaying, I have a Volvo 740 wagon and did great on a 2 hour drive from Lake Champlain: no swaying whatsoever. I suspect as many pointed out that I had the proper tongue weight. I was aware of the required distribution to start with: I am the one who, some may remember, had to back my boat into a tree hard, after pulling it out of the water, to push it forward against the front vee roller. Had I known about this site, and its wealth of trailering know-how, I would have neatly floated my boat into place, but instead I winched so hard in a shallow ramp that I bent the trailer and actually cracked half the weld length between the triangular frame and the tongue beam. So the second thing I do this spring is call the welding shop. Guy LeClair Mocador
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Ward Niffenegger
Hunter manual confirms tongue weight
I didn't get a manual with my used h23 so I had Hunter send me one (photo copy $15.00) In section III page 8 it says to maintain your tongue weight at 225 pounds. Sooooo for those trailer swayers out there, I think if you get your tongue weight up you will solve all your towing problems.
I didn't get a manual with my used h23 so I had Hunter send me one (photo copy $15.00) In section III page 8 it says to maintain your tongue weight at 225 pounds. Sooooo for those trailer swayers out there, I think if you get your tongue weight up you will solve all your towing problems.
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