Can anyone suggest how I should handle my topping lift (hope I have the correct terminology) on my Hunter 25. I usually unhook it from the boom when I raise the main sail and hook it to the back stay. Should I keep it hooked to the boom and unhook the other shakle from the back stay allowing it to hold up the boom and float freely? Responses appreciated.
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Your option
The topping lift keeps the boom out of the cockpit when you drop the main. It isn't needed when the main is up. In fact, if it is carrying the boom when the main is up, it is pulling the main out of shape, and reducing your sailing efficiency. Out topping lift is set so that it keeps the boom off my head with the main down, but goes slack when the main is raised. It may flop around a little, but it generally ends up to leeward of the leach, and out of the way. I know of no use for it while the main is up. Disconnecting the lift to the backstay is OK, too. I would worry that I would forget to refasten it before dropping the main, and hit myself on the head with the boom, but it is your choice. David Lady Lillie
The topping lift keeps the boom out of the cockpit when you drop the main. It isn't needed when the main is up. In fact, if it is carrying the boom when the main is up, it is pulling the main out of shape, and reducing your sailing efficiency. Out topping lift is set so that it keeps the boom off my head with the main down, but goes slack when the main is raised. It may flop around a little, but it generally ends up to leeward of the leach, and out of the way. I know of no use for it while the main is up. Disconnecting the lift to the backstay is OK, too. I would worry that I would forget to refasten it before dropping the main, and hit myself on the head with the boom, but it is your choice. David Lady Lillie
Adjustable
I have heard of the topping lift being adjustable. I think this would be used in light air to lift the boom up making the main sail have a deeper shape. As I understand it the main should be deeper in light air and flatter in heavy air. I have a fixed topping lift on my boat but I think am going to rig to make adjustable and try this out.
I have heard of the topping lift being adjustable. I think this would be used in light air to lift the boom up making the main sail have a deeper shape. As I understand it the main should be deeper in light air and flatter in heavy air. I have a fixed topping lift on my boat but I think am going to rig to make adjustable and try this out.
As the other writer said, I keep mine attached to the boom but loose so it doesn't interfere with the main sail. Also, you can set your boom up higher with the topping lift if it's adjustable, and this will help you raise the main by taking the weight of the boom off of it. My topping lift was secured to a cleat on the mast so I had to go forward to loosen it when I raised the main , so I ran it to a block at the mast step and then aft to a cleat that I mounted on the cabin roof so I don't have to go foward any more to adjust it and I can raise the boom with my hand so it's eaiser to pull on the topping lift line also.
the topping lift is a trim control for the main
the topping lift is necessary to keep the boom in position during light air conditions. Otherwise the weight of the boom distorts the mainsail shape, especially when the wind is down. When the wind is up, the pressure on the sail is sufficient to support the boom, so adjusting the topping lift to keep it from slapping the main is the drill. The pigtail that is attached to the backstay is for supporting the boom when NOT sailing. Always disconnect it when under sail...how else can your boom move from side to side? If you must disconect the topping lift, have it handy to reconnect when the sail won't hold it's shape. I found the adjustable topping lift on my Cat27 to be a nuisance because the adjuster was near the boom's end and often difficult to reach. My friends have a topping lift on their Island Packet that is adjustable from the cockpit...it's acturally like a second main halyard...that is very convenient and we use it all the time. Anyway, my solution was to install a rigid vang, from Garhauer, that eliminated the need for the topping lift. The vang supports the boom quite well and is very usefull in the light air conditions common to my area.
the topping lift is necessary to keep the boom in position during light air conditions. Otherwise the weight of the boom distorts the mainsail shape, especially when the wind is down. When the wind is up, the pressure on the sail is sufficient to support the boom, so adjusting the topping lift to keep it from slapping the main is the drill. The pigtail that is attached to the backstay is for supporting the boom when NOT sailing. Always disconnect it when under sail...how else can your boom move from side to side? If you must disconect the topping lift, have it handy to reconnect when the sail won't hold it's shape. I found the adjustable topping lift on my Cat27 to be a nuisance because the adjuster was near the boom's end and often difficult to reach. My friends have a topping lift on their Island Packet that is adjustable from the cockpit...it's acturally like a second main halyard...that is very convenient and we use it all the time. Anyway, my solution was to install a rigid vang, from Garhauer, that eliminated the need for the topping lift. The vang supports the boom quite well and is very usefull in the light air conditions common to my area.
Not A sail adjustment
it is a safety device to keep the boom from falling. I believe some race rules require that it must be attached for safety only. The adjustment is used by most to keep it higher when you are at the dock. On my H36 I never adjust topping lift, it is set so that when main is up it is slack.
it is a safety device to keep the boom from falling. I believe some race rules require that it must be attached for safety only. The adjustment is used by most to keep it higher when you are at the dock. On my H36 I never adjust topping lift, it is set so that when main is up it is slack.
re: not a sail adjustment
If you you have an adjustable topping lift, and you use it in light air to lift the weight of the boom off of the sail, you'll give the main more depth. If that's not a sail adjustment, I don't know what is.
If you you have an adjustable topping lift, and you use it in light air to lift the weight of the boom off of the sail, you'll give the main more depth. If that's not a sail adjustment, I don't know what is.
re: not a sail adjustment
Follow the link to UK Sailmaker's trim encyclopedia, mainsail trim section. Scroll down to the section on adjusting leech tension- "to ease the leech" - now notice item #3 "In very light air, reduce the effect of the weight of the boom by tightening the topping lift." You will find this reference to the mainsail topping lift and light air in every good sail trim guide. That's why most boats without a rigid vang have some sort of adjustable topping lift.
Follow the link to UK Sailmaker's trim encyclopedia, mainsail trim section. Scroll down to the section on adjusting leech tension- "to ease the leech" - now notice item #3 "In very light air, reduce the effect of the weight of the boom by tightening the topping lift." You will find this reference to the mainsail topping lift and light air in every good sail trim guide. That's why most boats without a rigid vang have some sort of adjustable topping lift.
Okay, half-points to everyone. The topping lift was designed to support the weight of the boom when not sailing. It replaced the traditional BOOM GALLOWS, an arch with notches cut across the top to receive the unloaded boom. That's only common on very traditional designs anymore, e.g., Sam Morse still puts a boom gallows on his Bristol Channel Cutter. Of course, a topping lift is a lot lighter and takes up zero deckspace compared to a boom gallows; but it's not as useful to lean against to steady oneself while taking a noonsite. So, no, a TL is not designed as a sail adjustment, per se. But, it CAN be used as described below to relieve the mainsail of the flattening weight of the boom in light air and induce a deeper belly to better catch light air. It's a bit of a cheat, but what sailor would not take advantage of it, once he knew it would help keep him moving in 4kts of wind? The description cited below of how to use the TL in this manner seems to be a tactical commentary, not a description of the TLs designed purpose. Incidentally, many who install rigid vangs install them so that when completely relieved, the unweighted boom rises about 10° or so from the horizontal, and allow the main to belly out in the same manner. Seems to be less of a cheat when a solid vang does it, doesn't it? Light air notwithstanding, I know a lot of guys who hate that TL slapping around while underway, and detach it, just like you do. It technically is not a sail control, so no harm, no foul. Just remember to re-attach beore releasing the main halyard, or the boom's in the cockpit. Hope this is helpful.
Nonsense....
if it can be used to control sail trim...then it's a control. Period. Somewhat of a cheat! Are you kidding me? Then the whisker pole or a reaching strut would be a cheat. That's like saying the halyard, which was originally intended to only raise and lower the sail is not a control device, per se. Tactical commentary? Tactics are one thing, sail trim is another. Anyway, I thought the original poster was asking advice on how to manage the topping lift, not it's history. I see no correlation at all between the Bristol Channel Cutter, which is based on 19th century working boats designed to thrive in very heavy weather, and this discussion. Finally, if any points are to be awarded, they should go to Buffet of Port of Chalameau for a good question. Now, whose in charge of awarding points in this forum??????????????? ........... Just like I thought....NO ONE!
if it can be used to control sail trim...then it's a control. Period. Somewhat of a cheat! Are you kidding me? Then the whisker pole or a reaching strut would be a cheat. That's like saying the halyard, which was originally intended to only raise and lower the sail is not a control device, per se. Tactical commentary? Tactics are one thing, sail trim is another. Anyway, I thought the original poster was asking advice on how to manage the topping lift, not it's history. I see no correlation at all between the Bristol Channel Cutter, which is based on 19th century working boats designed to thrive in very heavy weather, and this discussion. Finally, if any points are to be awarded, they should go to Buffet of Port of Chalameau for a good question. Now, whose in charge of awarding points in this forum??????????????? ........... Just like I thought....NO ONE!
Not quite
Tensioning the lift and raising the boom does NOT give the main more draft, if that's whats being referred to by the mention of "more belly." What it DOES do is create twist in the sail to account for vertical differences in apparent wind direction sometimes caused by interaction of the wind against the water surface at low wind speeds. Typically a straight leech will mean that the top of the sail is stalling when the lower sections are flying. Watch the leach telltales. Draft/camber is controlled by outhaul/cunningham/halyard/mastbend. The topping lift controls twist the same way your mainsheet does when you're close hauled in a bigger breeze or the solid vang does when off the wind. It doen't change draft or "belly." Apologies in advance if I misunderstood your posts though
Tensioning the lift and raising the boom does NOT give the main more draft, if that's whats being referred to by the mention of "more belly." What it DOES do is create twist in the sail to account for vertical differences in apparent wind direction sometimes caused by interaction of the wind against the water surface at low wind speeds. Typically a straight leech will mean that the top of the sail is stalling when the lower sections are flying. Watch the leach telltales. Draft/camber is controlled by outhaul/cunningham/halyard/mastbend. The topping lift controls twist the same way your mainsheet does when you're close hauled in a bigger breeze or the solid vang does when off the wind. It doen't change draft or "belly." Apologies in advance if I misunderstood your posts though
Buffet did post a great question, and we have gone well beyond what he wanted. To be sure: the topping lift is normally slack when the sail is driving the boat, and what you do with it (detach from boom, whatever) is completely up to you, since it is not a main sail control. Joe, I was going to try to untie the Gordian knot of your last post item-by-item, but it would require too much effort and I think fail to convince you, so I'll just allow myself three brief comments which I hope you will consider. Your thinking shows a rigidity and narrowness that refuses to consider someone else might have something valuable (and correct) to contribute. There indeed is a distinction between the intended design and the actual use of almost every tool Man has created (if I may employ a sweeping generality). Refusing to acknowledge this distinction in this conversation is the foundational flaw in your logic. Establishing the history of the topping lift was helpful in understanding its existence and purpose. ****** Please let me try to clarify. Here is an example of very rigid thinking. Joe posted: ______ If it can be used to control sail trim...then it's a control. Period. ______ I've used a hatchet to drive a nail in a pinch, but that doesn't make the hatchet a hammer. In the same vein, I'm not arguing the the topping lift SHOULDN'T be used as a sail control; just that it isn't specifically DESIGNED to be used in that manner. P.S.— my general "awarding" points to posters in this thread was simply a rhetorical device used as an introduction: I have no authority here (nor do I consider myself to have any) to dispense points to anyone. I thought it would be obvious that was being used metaphorically. Please don't take it so literally. Respectfully, AD
Hunter 25 topping
You've had all kinds of advice already, but here is my nickel's worth as well. I ran a 1980 Hunter 25 (full keel version) for about 10 years and never had any need to fool around with the topping lift under any wind conditions. However, my topping lift was fixed, completely separate from the rest of the boom controls. Without the sail up, the boom was perfectly parallel to the cabin top, and the mainsail was cut perfectly to fit inside the lift with a few inches to spare. I should probably thank either Hunter or the previous owner of the boat, as I had to exert no effort in this direction whatever. But I do strongly recommend a fixed topping lift that you don't have to fool with once you get it right.
You've had all kinds of advice already, but here is my nickel's worth as well. I ran a 1980 Hunter 25 (full keel version) for about 10 years and never had any need to fool around with the topping lift under any wind conditions. However, my topping lift was fixed, completely separate from the rest of the boom controls. Without the sail up, the boom was perfectly parallel to the cabin top, and the mainsail was cut perfectly to fit inside the lift with a few inches to spare. I should probably thank either Hunter or the previous owner of the boat, as I had to exert no effort in this direction whatever. But I do strongly recommend a fixed topping lift that you don't have to fool with once you get it right.
A topping lift is NOT a sail control, never was and never will be. Period!! As the breeze gets light, the main needs to be made flatter NOT fuller. Light air has a great deal of difficulty having flow attachment to the backside of the main. The more draft and leech slack you put in the main, the greater the detachment and the greater the drag. As the breeze slowly builds, the depth of the sail can be increased by easing mainsheet and/or vang and outhaul. But at this point the breeze will be able to lift the boom as the sheet allows. In either case, the topping lift is a nonfactor and should be kept completely out of the way or removed. Unfortunately some folks are a bit headstrong about their "ideas" about what constitutes a sail control. This can be very misleading to a novice sailor.
Flexible thoughts from a rigid mind,
My contention regarding the topping lift was to dispute that its sole purpose is to hold the boom up when not sailing. One poster stated he could think of no other purpose for the device and it should be disconnected when sailing. Another stated that it was only a safety device with no other purpose. Based on my own experience and some casual research I felt compelled to offer another function for the topping lift that some folks might not have considered and I provided a reference link to a sail trim guide that suggested what I had in mind. I have included the link....refer to the section on leech tension. http://www.uksailmakers.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia5a.html Whatever the topping lift may have first been designed for is not the issue. The fact that it is not specifically mentioned as a sail control in most trim guides is not the issue, either. The point is that in light air conditions one can reduce the effects of boom weight on leech tension by tightening the topping lift. This is the issue I offered for consideration. This is why I deemed it a sail control (option). Now.... some folks agreed with my suggestion, othere were quite rigid in their denial. And one self-appointed mediator felt compelled to award points, suggesting a metaphorical TIE between all opinions expressed in the thread, which amounts to a non-position, I guess. Hey,listen gentlemen, I'm very open minded when it comes to new ideas in sailing, or anything else for that matter. Call me what you will but rigid thinking I'm not. Let me ask this question: If you're hammering a nail with the back of an axe, or even the heel of your shoe or a rock .... aren't you still hammering? Are you open-minded enough to consider the idea that the job defines the tool, the tool doesn't define the job. A pen knife becomes a screwdriver when it's used as such, even though it is originally designed for something else. There are many items on a sailboat that can be used for multiple purposes. For instance, a topping lift, boom and mainsheet tackle can be used as a crane to haul in a dingy or lift someone out of the water. Is it still a topping lift, yes, is it also a crane guy, yes. Why, the other day someone posted a link to a whisker pole article, and I learned that the lazy sheet can act as a foreguy for the pole if it's hooked around a bow cleat and led aft. It was also suggested that the lazy sheet is used by some as a barber hauler, under certain conditions. Certainly not mentioned in any of the traditional sail trim guides or history books, but interesting, new ideas for me, to be considered and perhaps even implemented. It is a characteristic of the experienced sailor to be innovative in solving problems. One of the main functions of this forum, other than having meaningless discussions on theoretical hull speed, is to interchange ideas and explore alternative ways to solve boating problems. It is with this spirit I desire to contribute.
My contention regarding the topping lift was to dispute that its sole purpose is to hold the boom up when not sailing. One poster stated he could think of no other purpose for the device and it should be disconnected when sailing. Another stated that it was only a safety device with no other purpose. Based on my own experience and some casual research I felt compelled to offer another function for the topping lift that some folks might not have considered and I provided a reference link to a sail trim guide that suggested what I had in mind. I have included the link....refer to the section on leech tension. http://www.uksailmakers.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia5a.html Whatever the topping lift may have first been designed for is not the issue. The fact that it is not specifically mentioned as a sail control in most trim guides is not the issue, either. The point is that in light air conditions one can reduce the effects of boom weight on leech tension by tightening the topping lift. This is the issue I offered for consideration. This is why I deemed it a sail control (option). Now.... some folks agreed with my suggestion, othere were quite rigid in their denial. And one self-appointed mediator felt compelled to award points, suggesting a metaphorical TIE between all opinions expressed in the thread, which amounts to a non-position, I guess. Hey,listen gentlemen, I'm very open minded when it comes to new ideas in sailing, or anything else for that matter. Call me what you will but rigid thinking I'm not. Let me ask this question: If you're hammering a nail with the back of an axe, or even the heel of your shoe or a rock .... aren't you still hammering? Are you open-minded enough to consider the idea that the job defines the tool, the tool doesn't define the job. A pen knife becomes a screwdriver when it's used as such, even though it is originally designed for something else. There are many items on a sailboat that can be used for multiple purposes. For instance, a topping lift, boom and mainsheet tackle can be used as a crane to haul in a dingy or lift someone out of the water. Is it still a topping lift, yes, is it also a crane guy, yes. Why, the other day someone posted a link to a whisker pole article, and I learned that the lazy sheet can act as a foreguy for the pole if it's hooked around a bow cleat and led aft. It was also suggested that the lazy sheet is used by some as a barber hauler, under certain conditions. Certainly not mentioned in any of the traditional sail trim guides or history books, but interesting, new ideas for me, to be considered and perhaps even implemented. It is a characteristic of the experienced sailor to be innovative in solving problems. One of the main functions of this forum, other than having meaningless discussions on theoretical hull speed, is to interchange ideas and explore alternative ways to solve boating problems. It is with this spirit I desire to contribute.
Personally
If somebody would give me a REASON why a topping lift SHOULDN'T be used to reduce leech tension then I would go and get my rigid vang fixed, but until somebody does, I got other things I would rather spend my money on. When I say REASON...I mean a cold hard fact that using the topping lift somehow damages something else. If there is no real reason other then the "I invented sailboats and this is how I designed them" BS then I will continue to use the topping lift and continue to say it is a sail trim control and so will many other OPEN MINDED people.
If somebody would give me a REASON why a topping lift SHOULDN'T be used to reduce leech tension then I would go and get my rigid vang fixed, but until somebody does, I got other things I would rather spend my money on. When I say REASON...I mean a cold hard fact that using the topping lift somehow damages something else. If there is no real reason other then the "I invented sailboats and this is how I designed them" BS then I will continue to use the topping lift and continue to say it is a sail trim control and so will many other OPEN MINDED people.
more points?
this is on a sail boat so i know why its not called a boom hanger, but does anyone know why its called a topping lift?
this is on a sail boat so i know why its not called a boom hanger, but does anyone know why its called a topping lift?
why is it called a topping lift
I would highly suspect it is a fall back to traditional sailing nomenclature (sp) whereby a rope was a rope while it was still on its coil, but as soon as it was cut, it was called a line, and as soon as it was applied to a certain function, it became a docking line, halyard, sheet, inhaul, outhaul, downhaul or in this case lift. There are potentially a few 'lifting' lines on a boat. A spinnaker pole topping lift, and in this case a boom topping lift, referring as in most cases of line nameing, to its function. Similarily when a halyard is taken out of commission, and stowed, it reverts to a line, and if used for another purpose, its name changes again, such as if used as a docking line.
I would highly suspect it is a fall back to traditional sailing nomenclature (sp) whereby a rope was a rope while it was still on its coil, but as soon as it was cut, it was called a line, and as soon as it was applied to a certain function, it became a docking line, halyard, sheet, inhaul, outhaul, downhaul or in this case lift. There are potentially a few 'lifting' lines on a boat. A spinnaker pole topping lift, and in this case a boom topping lift, referring as in most cases of line nameing, to its function. Similarily when a halyard is taken out of commission, and stowed, it reverts to a line, and if used for another purpose, its name changes again, such as if used as a docking line.
to the point
Roger-Thanks-and fyi the next time I use a rose to pound a nail I will remember the point was well made by Roger
Roger-Thanks-and fyi the next time I use a rose to pound a nail I will remember the point was well made by Roger
Sheesh
Joe, let's lay our swords down. We just have different persptectives. I'm trying to be reasonable, Please quit taking shots at me. Notice you're the only one on this dogpile?
Joe, let's lay our swords down. We just have different persptectives. I'm trying to be reasonable, Please quit taking shots at me. Notice you're the only one on this dogpile?
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