Seidelmann owners, I'm in the process of cjanging out the original toilet and noticed after reading up on things that seidelmann never installed vent lines as required for the back of the toilet and the discharge line. The only vent is in the holding talk itself. According to my sources whenever the toilet is below the water line there should be a vent to prevent a siphon effect or the sea cock should always be closed. I was wondering how anyone might have hid these lines and how was it routed. could all vents be sort of manifolded together with the holding tank vent? Just your thought and any pictures would help. Thanks
Toilet Vent
- Thread starter Blitz
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Not vents, but vented loops
All manual toilets that are below waterline or even close it--because sailboats heel, changing the waterline--should have a vented loop in the intake. It goes between the pump and the bowl, to replace the short piece of hose used by the toilet mfr. All toilets that discharge directly overboard via a below-waterline thru-hull also need a vented loop in the discharge line...and there should also be one in a tank overboard discharge line. Drawing " Fig.1A Below Waterline Installation" on page 5 in the Raritan PH II installation instructions shows what a vented loop looks like and where it goes: http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/ph_II/L04v0505.pdf This illustration is NOT specific to this toilet...you'll see that the installation instructions for the Jabsco manual toilet also call for vented loops and show them in the same places in "Figure 1" on page 3 here: http://www.jabsco.com/files/29090_-_29120_-_3000_datasheet.pdf Vented loops do not require vent LINES. Instead, there is--or should be--an air valve in the vented loop that only allows air INTO the line to break a siphon and does not allow anything to squirt out. In fact, it's a bad idea to put a vent line on a vented loop because the diameter has to be so small--only 1/4"--that it quickly becomes clogged with sea water minerals and salt, turning the vented loop into an UNVENTED loop that no longer has any ability to break a siphon. It's not always possible to hide vented loops without making the lines to and from them way too long. So you'll just have to accept the fact that safety sometimes has to trump decor.
All manual toilets that are below waterline or even close it--because sailboats heel, changing the waterline--should have a vented loop in the intake. It goes between the pump and the bowl, to replace the short piece of hose used by the toilet mfr. All toilets that discharge directly overboard via a below-waterline thru-hull also need a vented loop in the discharge line...and there should also be one in a tank overboard discharge line. Drawing " Fig.1A Below Waterline Installation" on page 5 in the Raritan PH II installation instructions shows what a vented loop looks like and where it goes: http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/ph_II/L04v0505.pdf This illustration is NOT specific to this toilet...you'll see that the installation instructions for the Jabsco manual toilet also call for vented loops and show them in the same places in "Figure 1" on page 3 here: http://www.jabsco.com/files/29090_-_29120_-_3000_datasheet.pdf Vented loops do not require vent LINES. Instead, there is--or should be--an air valve in the vented loop that only allows air INTO the line to break a siphon and does not allow anything to squirt out. In fact, it's a bad idea to put a vent line on a vented loop because the diameter has to be so small--only 1/4"--that it quickly becomes clogged with sea water minerals and salt, turning the vented loop into an UNVENTED loop that no longer has any ability to break a siphon. It's not always possible to hide vented loops without making the lines to and from them way too long. So you'll just have to accept the fact that safety sometimes has to trump decor.
If you will look
I think the 34 is the same as the 37 that I have. If you look up under the sink, at the raw water intake for the toilet, you should see a vented loop up in there. It's mounted up pretty high, and works so far for me.
I think the 34 is the same as the 37 that I have. If you look up under the sink, at the raw water intake for the toilet, you should see a vented loop up in there. It's mounted up pretty high, and works so far for me.
Blitz; On my Seidelmann 34 the vented loops(2)>>>one for the water intake[3/4"] to the head & one for the discharge side[1&1/2"]>>> are located inside the cabinet above the sink high up close to the deck.Peggy is correct-a-mundo...[she is a leading expert by the way].... I'm pretty sure it is an ABYC requirement for builders,although my book is at the shop in my office so I can not give you the "chapter and verse" right this minute.In all my years of building boats, 2 vented loops is standard. Cheers- CaptHawk
toilet vented loops
Thanks to all - Seidelmann must have been in a hurry when they built my boat since there are no vented loops or vents in the intake hose or or the discharge and it's below the waterline as far as I can tell. The only vent line is on the holding tank. I have Peggie's book and have purchased the PHC Raritan toilet as a replacement to my original Raritan compact. As Peggie stated - it's vented loops not vents that are needed to break a siphon (any recommended proven brand/type for these?). Also - do they emit odor? Why do some use through hull vents and are these bad? The confusion is that the more you look you get conflicting information. For example on the intake hose to the toilet: Raritan does not recommend in their instructions for a vented loop on the intake hose. Peggy does. Jabsco does. Don Casey Does not: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/13.htm Seidelmann did not install them either (at least on my year) but I can understand this might have been for cost savings - as well as lack of raw water strainer. For the back of the toilet between the pump and the bowl; Don Casey does recommend a vented loop to offset the need for one between the intake and the toilet. Peggy does. Raritan does. I don't really understand the logic of having both these (intake hose & between the pump and the bowl) at the same time - redundancy?
Thanks to all - Seidelmann must have been in a hurry when they built my boat since there are no vented loops or vents in the intake hose or or the discharge and it's below the waterline as far as I can tell. The only vent line is on the holding tank. I have Peggie's book and have purchased the PHC Raritan toilet as a replacement to my original Raritan compact. As Peggie stated - it's vented loops not vents that are needed to break a siphon (any recommended proven brand/type for these?). Also - do they emit odor? Why do some use through hull vents and are these bad? The confusion is that the more you look you get conflicting information. For example on the intake hose to the toilet: Raritan does not recommend in their instructions for a vented loop on the intake hose. Peggy does. Jabsco does. Don Casey Does not: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/13.htm Seidelmann did not install them either (at least on my year) but I can understand this might have been for cost savings - as well as lack of raw water strainer. For the back of the toilet between the pump and the bowl; Don Casey does recommend a vented loop to offset the need for one between the intake and the toilet. Peggy does. Raritan does. I don't really understand the logic of having both these (intake hose & between the pump and the bowl) at the same time - redundancy?
Vented loops
Blitz, Heres what I have. A single vented loop on the toilet raw water intake, which is up close to the deck, in the cabinet by the sink. There is no vent of any kind between the toilet and the holding tank. The holding tank has an overboard vent, which goes into the anchor locker. This is high enough that it does not have or need a vented loop. I believe this vent has been changed and is not origional, but I kind of like it there, and it is certainly up high enough. My pumpout fitting is also in the anchor locker, which I do not like, but will probably leave it alone. This appears to be origional, or someone did some very nice work in covering the old one, as I can find no evidence of it ever beint anywhere else. It's OK in there, but hard to get to when you need to pump out, as all the anchor rode is piled up on top of it. I have a newer Raritan in the boat, and this system works very well, with no odors.
Blitz, Heres what I have. A single vented loop on the toilet raw water intake, which is up close to the deck, in the cabinet by the sink. There is no vent of any kind between the toilet and the holding tank. The holding tank has an overboard vent, which goes into the anchor locker. This is high enough that it does not have or need a vented loop. I believe this vent has been changed and is not origional, but I kind of like it there, and it is certainly up high enough. My pumpout fitting is also in the anchor locker, which I do not like, but will probably leave it alone. This appears to be origional, or someone did some very nice work in covering the old one, as I can find no evidence of it ever beint anywhere else. It's OK in there, but hard to get to when you need to pump out, as all the anchor rode is piled up on top of it. I have a newer Raritan in the boat, and this system works very well, with no odors.
Read the instructions and my recommendations again
There's no conflicting advice. Nobody--not Jabsco nor Raritan nor any other toilet mfr, not me nor Don Casey...NOBODY--recommends putting a vented loop in the intake line between the thru-hull and the pump. Nor does anyone recommend using two vented loops in the intake. Only one vented loop is needed in the intake, and it has to go between the pump and the bowl...it does NOT belong between the thru-hull and the pump. And it's not to "offset" anything...it's because pumping the toilet will pull air into the line through the vent in the loop, interfering--or even preventing altogether--the pump's ability to prime. If a below-waterline toilet is plumbed to flush directly overboard at sea via a below-waterline thru-hull, a vented loop is also needed in the head DISCHARGE line. I suspect you may have confused that one with the head intake. "Why do some use through hull vents...?" Because they don't have a clue that vented loops need an air valve that may or may not be sold separately from the loop...and without the air valve, water or waste squirts out the hole in the top of the loop. Instead of bothering to find out that they're missing the air valve, they just do the easiest thing to deal with the squirt: put a hose on the nipple. "...and are these bad?" Yes, and I explained why it's a bad idea in my previous reply to this thread. When installed and maintained correctly (which requires periodically removing the air valve to clean or replace it), vented loops do not emit any odor and do not leak. Most marine stores and catalogs carry vented loops. PVC is fine...you don't need bronze.
There's no conflicting advice. Nobody--not Jabsco nor Raritan nor any other toilet mfr, not me nor Don Casey...NOBODY--recommends putting a vented loop in the intake line between the thru-hull and the pump. Nor does anyone recommend using two vented loops in the intake. Only one vented loop is needed in the intake, and it has to go between the pump and the bowl...it does NOT belong between the thru-hull and the pump. And it's not to "offset" anything...it's because pumping the toilet will pull air into the line through the vent in the loop, interfering--or even preventing altogether--the pump's ability to prime. If a below-waterline toilet is plumbed to flush directly overboard at sea via a below-waterline thru-hull, a vented loop is also needed in the head DISCHARGE line. I suspect you may have confused that one with the head intake. "Why do some use through hull vents...?" Because they don't have a clue that vented loops need an air valve that may or may not be sold separately from the loop...and without the air valve, water or waste squirts out the hole in the top of the loop. Instead of bothering to find out that they're missing the air valve, they just do the easiest thing to deal with the squirt: put a hose on the nipple. "...and are these bad?" Yes, and I explained why it's a bad idea in my previous reply to this thread. When installed and maintained correctly (which requires periodically removing the air valve to clean or replace it), vented loops do not emit any odor and do not leak. Most marine stores and catalogs carry vented loops. PVC is fine...you don't need bronze.
Vented loops
Peggie - Thanks for your help - I got it now. Now I only have to figure how to maybe hide them. Nice & Easy - The vented loop in the bathroom locker on my boat is only for the shower sump. There is no vented look on the intake - as there should not be any. My pump out is also through the anchor locker, but my holding tank vent is through the hull toward the bow on the port side (not to be confused with the larger 1" anchor locker drain). Thanks again to all.
Peggie - Thanks for your help - I got it now. Now I only have to figure how to maybe hide them. Nice & Easy - The vented loop in the bathroom locker on my boat is only for the shower sump. There is no vented look on the intake - as there should not be any. My pump out is also through the anchor locker, but my holding tank vent is through the hull toward the bow on the port side (not to be confused with the larger 1" anchor locker drain). Thanks again to all.
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