Toe Rail Recaulk

[Skip Gundlach]

Toe Rail Recaulk

I'm at the stage in my chores that I'm digging out all the old caulking (3M
101 at the time - it's no longer available) to recaulk our toerail.

My fiberglass supplier, with a long history in the boatbuilding biz, is
recommending Bostic 940FS. Water cleanup and tooling, it looks easy to work
with, with a 20 minute skin time..

I'm having some serious questions as to the wisdom of using this material.
The 101 I'm taking out in some places is very resistant to removal (others
pull out fine with the V-shaped tool I'm using to get under the center and
catch the edges in one pass).

However, that's merely caulk, and not an adhesive. Knowing 5200's
reputation for later removal makes me think twice. I hope I don't, but
realistically I expect that at some point in the future, I'll be recaulking
the toe rail. Whether I'd be able to get this stuff out without treating it
(time, money, ?? impact on the paint/teak) is keeping my attention right
now.

Has anyone used this stuff (Bostic 940FS) to say how it behaves,
particularly in having to remove it?

Secondly, if you've had years of experience (how does it hold up?), if not
this, what do you use which is currently available (101's not)?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

 

[Skip Gundlach]

PS It also, sez, however, that it's sandable and paintable after cure. Makes me wonder about how flexible it is once it's cured!

L8R

Skip


Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

 

[Stephen Trapani]

I don't get the problem with using a good adhesive for something you want to last forever, especially when we know WE aren't going to last anywhere near forever! Putting in a sea cock with anything less than the strongest thing you can find seems crazy to me. Toe rails? Wouldn't it be nice if you never have to deal with it again?

... Let's see, I think I'll use this weak stuff that doesn't hold too well so I can pull it out easily when it starts falling out in a few years...

 

[JohnS]

Hmmm, lessee - maybe the toe rail gets damaged and needs to be removed and replaced. Or maybe an idea for improvement (??moving stanchions outboard??) entails removing a small section of toe rail. There are plenty of reasons one might need or want to have the possibility of removing a fitting.

 

[Ross]

Water bearing caulks need to dry in order to cure. I use an excellant urethane acrylic caulk on houses that won't harden in the caulking tube but does fine for windows. I would not trust it for a bedding compound.Silicones cure with the addition of moisture as do some of the urethanes. Read the data sheet carefully and select on the basis of meeting the needs that you have for this application. I know nothing about the Bostik product but my experience with store clerks does not inspire confidence.

 

[rardiH36]

What about the butyl caulk tape that Maine Sail has for sale on this site:

http://hunter.sailboatowners.com/in...ce&page=show_ad&catid=19&adid=2682&Itemid=220

I really don't know if this is what you want for your application, but a couple of years ago, I tightened the toe-rail bolts on my 1980 boat in an attempt to stop some leaks. I was surprise to see a black sealant squeeze out. Being still flexible and malleable after about 30 years, I am thinking Hunter used butyl tape rather than caulk? Might be worth some research?

And oh -- the leaks stopped.

 

[Joe]

here's description of the Bostic 940FS product.... http://www.ellsworth.com/display/productdetail.html?productid=4952&Tab=P

Bostik Marine 940 FS is recommended for use in bonding and sealing applications, particularly where permanent elastic bonding between surfaces is required. It can be used above and below the waterline. Its outstanding adhesion and UV resistance properties target this product for sealing deck hardware, through-hull fittings, rub-rails and portholes applications.

3M 101 is a polysulfide adhesive/sealant for less than permanent applications.... if you can't find it... perhaps Boat Life's Life Caulk. It's a popular polysulfide sealant. Otherwise, I'd look into the Butyl Tape solution.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Hi, and thanks for all the responses so far...

Based on many of the responses in the several places I posed this question,
I see that I wasn't sufficiently clear in my questions...

In hope of clarifying:

We are on a Morgan 461 built 33 years ago this month. The through-bolted
teak toe rail was bedded with whatever they used at the time, and to my
knowledge most likely has never been removed, other than a portion of the
starboard bow which was damaged in our wreck - which was replaced.

In its lifetime, the toe rail outer bottom(s), meeting the hull and deck,
has been caulked at least twice. I know that because we took out the old
caulk (easily removed, very old) when we did our initial refit, recaulking
with 3m 101, no longer available, and have now removed that 101 caulk we
applied during that refit, 7 years later.

We're recaulking because there are some leaks we presume to be coming
through that area. That's because our application (both deck and hull-side
exterior caulk lines) of Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure, applied along
that line(s), MOSTLY (only - not completely) stopped them. Thus the recaulk
in hopes of killing those remaining leaks. We will NOT be removing the toe
rail, a massive disruption to our already torn-up boat.

My vendor has suggested we use Bostik 940FS for our recaulk. I have some
concerns about it. Though I hope I won't have to, I had to remove both the
earlier, and, now, this caulk, so I'm anticipating a potential removal of
whatever I put down this time in the long-distance future.

So, my question(s) was/were:

1) Has anyone used Bostik 940FS over any extended period, including having
to remove it, and, if so, what were the experiences with it as to sealing
and removing.

(Like 5200, it's an adhesive, not "just" a caulk. Knowing how challenging
5200 is to remove has me thinking I'd not better use this stuff. It's also
sandable and paintable, which makes me wonder about how flexible the stuff
is after cure.)

2) If not Bostik, what else, and with what results, were used long term?

4200 is a less permanent adhesive with about half the adhesion strength of
5200, and similar to the Bostik. It seems to be the replacement of choice
(now that 101 is no longer made) for many, though there are also a variety
of folks who are adamant against it.

Sikaflex, Lifecaulk and Boatlife products seem to have their followings and
detractors. One responder likes Dupont 795, the product we used to rebed
our aft hatch glass, but I believe it would be pretty messy to try to use it
for this particular application.

Other research suggests silicone based products are not appropriate for
sealing edges - but make fine gasket material. This is a silicone-based
product, another strike against it, so far...

If I were removing the toe rail, and for future deck beddings, I'd use Butyl
Tape, for its superior water-blocking and ease of use and cleanup, along
with virtually NO aging characteristics. Butyl caulk was mentioned, but
research (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-butyl-caulk.htm) suggests it's not
a good application for this in many ways. Butyl tape doesn't seem as though
it could be used for caulking, as nice as that might be However, I'm all
ears as to how one would get it into the crack, tool it, and have it cure to
the level that bumps and other potential disruptions to the seal would be of
no event.

So, back to the questions, relating strictly to recaulking:

1) Has anyone used Bostik 940FS over any extended period, including having
to remove it, and, if so, what were the experiences with it as to sealing
and removing.

2) If not Bostik 940FS (or the non-fast-set), what else, and with what
results (application hints/cautions and ease of removal), were used long
term?

Thanks!

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.

In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.

Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

 

[Casco bay]

Skip, I was really eager to hear the replies to your question because I will be undertaking the same process on my old Cape Dory. Since it will be my first time, I've been researching the web and found this site: www.star-distributing.com.
There is a long explanation of how to re caulk and what to use and why. If you go to the homepage you can choose that particular article. I wondered if anyone else has heard of, or used their product...

 

[Joe]

You seem to be looking for a polysulfide replacement for the 3M101.....

The 2 part Boat-life "life caulk" is specifically designed for teak applications, decking in particular. However, it appears you're looking for stuff in a tube you can inject.... i.e. caulk... so you would have to put the 2 part mix into a syringe type applicator.

That said, it looks like you've done your research..... but let me ask you this... have you discussed your concerns with the store clerk... perhaps he has an alternative product.

 

[Chuckbear]

here's description of the Bostic 940FS product.... http://www.ellsworth.com/display/productdetail.html?productid=4952&Tab=P


3M 101 is a polysulfide adhesive/sealant for less than permanent applications.... if you can't find it... perhaps Boat Life's Life Caulk. It's a popular polysulfide sealant. Otherwise, I'd look into the Butyl Tape solution.

3Ms replacement for 101, not made any more, is 4200. Chuck

 

[Joe]

3Ms replacement for 101, not made any more, is 4200. Chuck

4200 is not a polysulfide... it's a weaker version of 5200, which is a polyurethane sealant. At half the strength of 5200 it allows for disassembly of parts. I never thought it was a replacement for the 101, though. My take is that 3M 4000 is more likely the waterproof, rubbery, cosmetic caulk that 101 was... Like a bedding compound. But I won't argue with you.

Re: 3M4000:

This one-part sealant cures to form a
firm, rubbery waterproof seal. Its
flexibility allows for the dissipation
of stress caused by shock, vibration,
swelling or shrinking. Designed for
marine applications above and below
the waterline. Its superior UV
resistance properties make this an
ideal cosmetic sealant.

 

[Chuckbear]

4200 is not a polysulfide... it's a weaker version of 5200, which is a polyurethane sealant. At half the strength of 5200 it allows for disassembly of parts. I never thought it was a replacement for the 101, though. My take is that 3M 4000 is more likely the waterproof, rubbery, cosmetic caulk that 101 was... Like a bedding compound. But I won't argue with you.

Re: 3M4000:

You don't have to agree but this is directly from 3M when I tried to find some 101. It may not be identical, most "replacements" are not, but it is what 3M recommends for those that used 101. Chuck

 

[Joe]

You don't have to agree but this is directly from 3M when I tried to find some 101. It may not be identical, most "replacements" are not, but it is what 3M recommends for those that used 101. Chuck

That's cool Chuck...... I have used 4200 often... but for bedding hardware and other stuff that is likely to be removed, I was always wary of polyurethane sealant because it's so powerful... What does 3M recommend for teak decking? BTW. Most articles I've read on the subject swear by a 2 part polysulfide sealant. Does 3m not make a polysulfide at all?

 

[Chuckbear]

Joe, I prefer Sikaflex 290 for caulking teak decks with BoatLife a close second. I haven't seen any two part polysulfide in a while. We always treat the seams with CPES before caulking. There is a Maritime Teak Deck Caulk sold by Jamestown Distributors that some swear by but I have no experience with it. Chuck

 

[Joe]

Thanks Chuck..... I appreciate the info..