Toe Rail & rain leak

[BobT]

It appears as though my vigorous core repairs at the chain plate port side last spring has vibrated open a little rainwater leak at the hull to deck joint.
I knew the toe rail screws would all have to be rebedded sometime soon, but now I guess it's really soon.
The main question is whether or not the screws holding the toe rail are also the hull to deck fastener, or was an adhesive/resin bond the primary means of joining the two.

Thanks in advance

 

[BobM]

They used a sticky bonding agent on my boat that looks more like butyl tape than 5200. I would count on the fact that an adhesive is the primary bonding agent. I am in the same boat with a leak just aft of the first starboard stanchion. I am hoping to get away with just unbolting the rail past the leak, sealing and re-securing it, but with yours being at the chain plate you might as well do the whole thing if you can get at it. Butyl tape is an inexpensive and very effective bedding agent. Plus the tape is a lot less messy to work with than caulk. It is a bit more difficult to deal with extra squeezing out between the parts being joined as it is like bubble gum and you just can't wipe it and achieve a finished look. You have to trim it away.

 

[BobM]

You say screws, but to my knowledge, S2 used bolts (or whatever the correct term is for a screw headed fastener with nuts on the back).

Also, do yourself a favor and be darned sure where the leak is. I removed and rebedded what I thought was a leaky stanchion before realizing the leak was actually forward of it a few inches. Stains on the side of the hull inside might have traveled from somewhere too.

 

[BobT]

Thanks Bob,
I believe the specific term is "flat head machine screw", if it's threaded for a nut or a tapped hole. I suspect wood screws here because there's nothing on the inside where I wood expect the nuts to be. And if there are any, to get at them I would have to rip out the cabinets (and hire a midget with 5 foot long arms to work inside the cockpit lockers). The sheer number of nuts backing up the jib track is intimidating enough, alas, another project.
I've used a lot of butyl tape over the years in the building side of life; great stuff.
Wish I could go work on it today!

 

[BobM]

Yes, I agree that sailboat repair would be a prosperous line of work for a little person! I keep trying to get my friends to train their toddlers as certified small diesel mechanics to no avail LOL.

I hope it isn't just wood screws, although I can confirm that as the method of attachment used on the Lancer 25. There was a strip of wood adhered on the inside of the hull and the screws were just put through from the outside. The hull and deck were joined with 5200 though. There was one guy who reported his hull to deck joint "unzipping" but I find it hard to imagine 5200 failing like that. There was some exposed to sunlight on my old boat for years and it was fine.

 

[BobT]

screwed, so to speak

Got down to the marina today to pull batteries & cushions, etc. and backed out a toe rail fastener. Sure enough... Oval head wood/sheet metal threads. Looks to be #14 x 1". I pulled them all and knocked on the rail with a wood block & deadblow but it is quite tight. So I drove all the screws back in with a dab of 4200. I suspect the leak will not be remedied, but there's too much ice on the deck now to work properly. Perhaps the smaller S2 boats didn't get the through bolts that you 9.2 folks have...

 

[Scup]

BobT,

Guess I didn't realize that your boat was an S2 27. Even though there are only four members so far, try posting your message to the unofficial S2 27 Class Association website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/s227classassociation/ . Hope you join us there!

 

[Scup]

Sorry, BobT. I see that you are already a member of the Yahoo group. Can't really help you very much with the toe rail problem, but I have some literature from S2 Yachts that states that they sealed all of the the deck/hull joints on their boats with 3M 5200. No date on the literature, but I suspect that it was published in '82/'83 or so, certainly prior to the 27 model. However, if 5200 was working for them on their earlier boats, I see no particular reason that they would change to butyl tape. I could be wrong, however. FWIW.

 

[BobM]

The stuff just doesn't seem as hard as 5200 on my boat, however, perhaps what I thought was 5200 was something else on my old boat.

 

[BobT]

Hmmm the 5200 is not good news. Just read up on a product to remove it called Marine Formula. Any experience with that?
The toe rail is very tight to the gel coat, it's not as if one could work a blade in there to encourage a solvent without scarring the surfaces. Capillary action only... Plus they recommend over 65 degrees F. It'll be a while before we see that again around here!
Bummer, don't want it leaking all winter!

 

[BobM]

I doubt they affixed the toe rail to the deck with 5200. But the deck is potentially affixed to the hull with it.

 

[BobM]

Any chance you can slip a length of wire in at the end? Tie it to a couple of dowels like a garrotte and pull it aft with a sawing motion to release it. Put some masking tape down on either side of the toe rail to prevent damage. Another possibility is that my Dremel multi-max (100-130 at Home Despot) came with a flexible scraper blade. If the blade fits under the toe rail the vibrating action should make the job easier. Once again, masking tape to prevent damage nearby.

 

[BobM]

http://www.farreachvoyages.com/tools.html

If you look on it you will see that he used hard wood wedges to raise the toe rail and cut the adhesive with a Dremel multi-master with a scraper blade.

 

[Ed Ramsey]

I don't know about the 27, but the toerails on both of my 6.8's were sealed with something more like butyl tape. It was whitish in color, and gooey, kind of like gum. It didn't take much effort to remove the toerails once the bolts were out. These were through-bolted, and unfortunately, the bolts went right through the balsa core, and some were leaking.

They used the same sealant behind the rubrail at the hull-deck joint. (the 6.8's hull-deck joint is not directly under the toerail)

 

[BobT]

Thanks Gents!
The Toe rail extrusion fits the fiberglass Very Well. And at it's end joints the next section of metal is Very Tight. So the wire method will have to wait until I can get an end started.
The previous attempt was at the stern end and not too strenuous in fading light. I'll have another go with a better selection of wood blocks and wedges and some solvent.

Now just supposing a guy clipped his halyards to the toe rail during the week so they wouldn't slap the mast... do you think that little bit of tension would open the joint?? Just hand tensioned, never winched!

We've had a lot of rain here lately. I'm going to monitor the area for a couple weeks. It is possible that the screw heads were the source...(wishful thinking, I know)

 

[BobM]

I was thinking about trying to just seal the screw heads too. I already tried just running a slight bead of silicone along the edge of the toe rail to try to direct the water past the leak point to no avail. I doubt cleating a halyard off to the toe rail would be a problem, however, using your halyard to pull up the toe rail after you unbolt it might work well. If they did use butyl tape or even silicone to seal the toe rail a heat gun or a hot day might help a lot too.

 

[BobT]

The thought of lifting the toe rail with a halyard occurred to me too. Of course I've taken them down to wash them out. Looking around the yard, not many people do that. But when I purchased the boat they were so mildewed & filthy that I did it last Winter. The lines were nearly new inside the mast. I was careful to tape on a light pull line and didn't lose any, and no problems pulling them back on last spring. This season, I got the main & jib halyards down and pulled the spinnaker line right off it's chaser. It seems the end was a bit wet and the tape didn't hold. Duh. Oh well. I have to climb the mast again anyway since the windex mount is bent again. Fat bird, probably. I need something stiffer than the little stainless sheet metal that's up there now.

The heat gun is an excellent idea too, thanks.

 

[BobT]

Found culprit

Made it to the yard today and I believe the source was actually the chain plate. Which places the blame squarely upon myself and a weak caulking job on last summer's re-bed. So now it's re-re-bedded and the fore hatch and cabin top are tarped down for the winter. (As if we'll get another 16" of snow this decade!)

94 days til the marina opens again!

 

[BobM]

Re: Found culprit

I hope the chain plate rebed did the trick.

You beat me. I finally got my cover on the 31st, after my boat had seen at least a few minor snowfalls. However, we are expecting 8 inches this weekend and I am happy to have the cover on for it.

 

[BobT]

Seems OK! Went to the boatyard New Years Day. A sort of pilgrimage, if you will. In the hope of being able to spend more time on the water in the new year.
Everything seems to be drying out. The port side chainplate bulkhead had been quite wet and now the dampness is settling. The top end is quite a bit drier!
On to oil line repairs!