Toe Rail Bolts
- Thread starter jorgefife
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I would shop a little. But I usually end up at Jamestown Distributors for quantities of a dozen or more. For lesser amounts I usually find what I need in the drawers of stainless hardware at Lowes or Home Depot. Did you check the store here on SBO?
http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...d=937&familyName=1/4-20+S/S+Machine+Screws+PP
http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...d=937&familyName=1/4-20+S/S+Machine+Screws+PP
Also try a local Bolt and Screw Company. There are likely a few in your area. The prices are way under hardware stores and the selection and quality is usually better. As an example, in this area Tri-City Bolt and Screw is very good. http://www.tricitybolt.com
I have used www.smallparts.com. Regardless, look for marine grade SS-316. Many places sell SS-304 and I am not all that crazy about it.
Jorge:
Yes, WM almost certainly will have bolts in stock of the right or similar size. Since you need just a few, WM's higher price will be offset by the convenience. Yes, it hurts to pay as almost much for say twelve 2 x 1/4" bolts as a 100 count box would cost from a mail order company ... but I would never use the extra bolts. And what if I later realized that the 2" length should have been 2.5"
I don't know off hand the exact size of the toe rail fasteners. Can't you just take one off you boat and bring to the store? On my boat, the length of the bolts are about 1" longer than needed. Probably helped Hunter when fitting the deck to the hull. But now that the hull and deck are already joined, you probably could go shorter.
I have bought ss fasteners at hardware stores, but I sometimes am disappointed by rust appearing. And in those plastic blister packages, the price really isn't much diff than West Marine. Because of the convenience of getting the fasteners right now, that I almost always need just a few fasteners at a time, and that WM has a huge assortment off sizes in bins to pick over, I buy most fasteners for my projects from them.
Just occurred to me there is a Bolt and Nut place nearby, I used them 5 years ago to get SS screws for a 78 Rolls I have: they were exactly what I needed for the door sills
Thank you Rich for the advice on SS-316: I didn't know there is a better and not so good SS !
And yes, Rardi, I have a sample.
Now , what about the washers with a rubber circle under it?
Same story, I presume...
Thank you Rich for the advice on SS-316: I didn't know there is a better and not so good SS !
And yes, Rardi, I have a sample.
Now , what about the washers with a rubber circle under it?
Same story, I presume...
Good idea Jorge. Stainless locknuts is what you want. Or is that what you have in the one you removed? We have one of the largest fastener companies here, Fastenal. But I don't find them well stocked with stainless. Let us know what you find.
Ed,
Thank you for helping: what I have between the bolt and the nut is a washer with a black rubber on it: the rubber part compresses under the fiberglass, if you know what I mean: all the bolts have one of these, although the rubber is now a little warped and worn
That makes sense?
Thank you for helping: what I have between the bolt and the nut is a washer with a black rubber on it: the rubber part compresses under the fiberglass, if you know what I mean: all the bolts have one of these, although the rubber is now a little warped and worn
That makes sense?
Maybe. Is the "black rubber" part of the washer or just attached to it? Sounds like they might have used a butyl washer in addition to the stainless washer. Is the rubber part next to the fiberglass? You can use a plain stainless washer and cut your own butyl washer. Wish someone had put mine together that way.
Do not use 18-8 SS for toerail bolts!
DO NOT buy these at West Marine; they stock only 18-8 type stainless from Asia. Most modern 18-8 stainless is positively terrible. I accidentally/negligently put in 18-8 flat washers under my keelbolt nuts and they went rusty in 4 years. For something as crucial as the toerail (which holds the deck down) I wouldn't touch them.
For this (and really anything nowadays) use only 316 stainless, which allows for less variation in the metallurgic makeup of the material. This is what the original ones were (or should have been, by spec). Typically they are 1/4-20 square-shank carriage bolts about 1-1/2" long. You should be able to find them at Jamestown Distributors or (for more money) through McMaster-Carr. Be sure the locknuts are 316 as well. My boat apparently had bronze flat washers used under the flange, all of which are bright green now, but as they are holding and the 36-year-old toerail doesn't leak, I have left them 'for now'.
Be wary of anything that is not guaranteed to be type-316, such as at Fastenal or from anyone who doesn't make a big deal about the bolts being really 316. The 316 will cost more money per bolt, like 2-1/2 to 3 times as much as 18-8. But they will last more than 3 times as long and being further dissimilar from the 6000-series aluminum they will be less likely to 'weld' themselves to it with corrosion. Just be sure to put anti-seize on them during reassembly.
I'm not sure that anti-seize was ever applied by the factory (most likely it wasn't) but I have found these remarkably easy to remove. I installed U-bolts for the split backstay legs by removing the last toerail bolt and drilling a new hole just before it. With surprisingly little banging by a hammer they popped right out and revealed very little corrosion to the toerail. The U-bolts are 316 SS and under the flat washers (which are 18-8; sorry) I put white electrical tape to insulate them from the aluminum.
In the same way I will be changing my shroud chainplates to U-bolts over the winter as well.
DO NOT buy these at West Marine; they stock only 18-8 type stainless from Asia. Most modern 18-8 stainless is positively terrible. I accidentally/negligently put in 18-8 flat washers under my keelbolt nuts and they went rusty in 4 years. For something as crucial as the toerail (which holds the deck down) I wouldn't touch them.
For this (and really anything nowadays) use only 316 stainless, which allows for less variation in the metallurgic makeup of the material. This is what the original ones were (or should have been, by spec). Typically they are 1/4-20 square-shank carriage bolts about 1-1/2" long. You should be able to find them at Jamestown Distributors or (for more money) through McMaster-Carr. Be sure the locknuts are 316 as well. My boat apparently had bronze flat washers used under the flange, all of which are bright green now, but as they are holding and the 36-year-old toerail doesn't leak, I have left them 'for now'.
Be wary of anything that is not guaranteed to be type-316, such as at Fastenal or from anyone who doesn't make a big deal about the bolts being really 316. The 316 will cost more money per bolt, like 2-1/2 to 3 times as much as 18-8. But they will last more than 3 times as long and being further dissimilar from the 6000-series aluminum they will be less likely to 'weld' themselves to it with corrosion. Just be sure to put anti-seize on them during reassembly.
I'm not sure that anti-seize was ever applied by the factory (most likely it wasn't) but I have found these remarkably easy to remove. I installed U-bolts for the split backstay legs by removing the last toerail bolt and drilling a new hole just before it. With surprisingly little banging by a hammer they popped right out and revealed very little corrosion to the toerail. The U-bolts are 316 SS and under the flat washers (which are 18-8; sorry) I put white electrical tape to insulate them from the aluminum.
In the same way I will be changing my shroud chainplates to U-bolts over the winter as well.
Ed,
When you tighten the nut, the rubber piece is what compresses against the fiberglass: under it is the washer and then the nut.
Not sure if attached to the washer, I think it is, will checkJohn:
Thanks for the input. but here goes:
Do you suggest I use a locknut instead of a normal nut?
I will follow the advise on the 316, but doi I still use the rubber washer to compress to the the fiberglass?
Because all the nuts on the screws attaching the bolts to the toe rail are all normal nuts
When you tighten the nut, the rubber piece is what compresses against the fiberglass: under it is the washer and then the nut.
Not sure if attached to the washer, I think it is, will checkJohn:
Thanks for the input. but here goes:
Do you suggest I use a locknut instead of a normal nut?
I will follow the advise on the 316, but doi I still use the rubber washer to compress to the the fiberglass?
Because all the nuts on the screws attaching the bolts to the toe rail are all normal nuts
I don't know that the rubber/plastic washer is adequate for ensuring the bolts and nuts stay under tension. In other words it's not there as a lock washer. If you provide a (316) flat washer as a bearing surface and then a regular split lock washer, it should be all right. My boat has what I believe are bronze flat washers under the lock nuts. The washers are all mint-green now but holding. I don't like this because now the SS bolts are subjected to two other metals, the aluminum toerail and the bronze, for the trifecta of tri-metallic corrosion. --all the more reason to go with the more corrosion-resistant 316.
I would recommend using fender washers (about 1-1/4" OD, so long as they fit) of 316 SS and NEW 316 locknuts wherever you change them. Eventually they will all have to be replaced; but there's nothing wrong with waiting till the boat tells you with a slightly louder voice that it's time. As for me and my boat, we will serve with the existing ones (for now).
I would recommend using fender washers (about 1-1/4" OD, so long as they fit) of 316 SS and NEW 316 locknuts wherever you change them. Eventually they will all have to be replaced; but there's nothing wrong with waiting till the boat tells you with a slightly louder voice that it's time. As for me and my boat, we will serve with the existing ones (for now).
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