My neighbor has suggested going in on a boat together. Our families are similar and we are looking at similar types of sailboats (basically a big family daysailer with a small cabin). I think it would be a great way to reduce the cost of buying a sailboat, my wife thinks it would be a great way to ruin our relationship with our neighbors. Has anyone out there done this? Any advice before we get ourselves into trouble? Thanks, John
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Be careful!
I agree with your wife. No two people think alike and it could be a recipe for the end to a good friendship. I know people who shared a holiday home with close relatives and that was a disaster. You could find that you end up with all the cleaning up, or end up with fixing broken bits and pieces and footing the bill for repairs. But in saying this, if you can come to an amicable agreement and agree to take equal shares in EVERYTHING! it might work - just be careful. Judith
I agree with your wife. No two people think alike and it could be a recipe for the end to a good friendship. I know people who shared a holiday home with close relatives and that was a disaster. You could find that you end up with all the cleaning up, or end up with fixing broken bits and pieces and footing the bill for repairs. But in saying this, if you can come to an amicable agreement and agree to take equal shares in EVERYTHING! it might work - just be careful. Judith
Two boats will improve the Friendship
As it will give you even more in common without the tension of who does what maintenance, who pays for what, and the problem of upgrading later on. Another vote for your wife.
As it will give you even more in common without the tension of who does what maintenance, who pays for what, and the problem of upgrading later on. Another vote for your wife.
Because everyone else is so negative...
Hi, John... I'm not sure how good an idea it would be for you, but you'd never know from reading the other posts here that this is done on occasion, and with much success. As one example, their are regular Editor letters in Latitude 38 from folks doing just this. As another example, friends of ours were using their Hunter 34 very little but hated to give it and sailing up completely. There was/is no viable 'boat share' business in our area offering hourly/daily rentals (which is a great option for a different kind of sailing) and so they rewrote a plane co-ownership agreement that we had been using when sharing a small plane. In the end, they found a couple from another area whom they did not know, they met at the boat, much discussion ensued, and they've now had a solid arrangement for 4 years. And this included significant problems with the boat and some expensive repairs in the Bahamas, which is a good test of the agreement as well as the people. Here's why I think both agreements (our plane partnership with 3 partners was also very successful for some years and is still ongoing with other owners) worked well: 1. The people turned out to be compatible but also different, meaning we all had roughly the same values about maintenance, location, how to share use, cleanliness, etc. but differing interests made it natural to distribute responsibilities. E.g. perhaps one of you will be more inclined to service the engine annually, while another is more inclined to wax the hull. But take a good look at your neighbors' cars, homes, yards and kids. Is there really similarities sufficient to warrant further discussion? 2. The original agreement we all used is/was VERY thorough (and in fact had been developed over time by an aircraft owners' association); also, much of it needs to be refined thru thorough discussion between the interested parties, and only if there's agreement about the terms does the partnership have a good shot at succeeding. 3. In the cases I'm referring to, there was somewhat of a built-in compatibility in how the plane and boat were going to be used. E.g. with the plane, I worked a typical job, partner #2 was semi-retired and wanted to fly on the less crowded weekdays, and #3 was an airline pilot who's schedule was different from either of us. With the boat, it's used in large chunks - when the Midwest couple can get down to enjoy the nice weather here in Florida - and so Owners #1 plan their extended use of it accordingly. If all you neighbors work M-F, 8-5...well, you get my point. 4. You don't mention where you're located but one great benefit of a partnership *could* be that you could increase the size, capability or equipment on the boat to further the range of activities it will support, make the boat satisfactory to you for a longer period before being traded off, and give you the chance for overnighting, weekending, beer can races, etc. 5. Somewhat related to 4. above, don't miss the critical importance of what is to happen should one partner want out by selling his/her share. It's likely that one family's personal circumstances or affection for sailing will cause this to happen, altho' it in fact can be a healthy thing for the evolution of the partnership. (E.g. the fellow who bought out my plane share is a great mechanic; I don't think the other partners have ever had it better!) This is not a slam dunk option. The first real test of its viability is whether you and your neighbors can have a full, candid discussion of the idea, the only intended result being to get everyone to consider it further, ID'ing their "must haves", how you'd address the details, who would handle the money (you'll need a new, separate checking account), where would it be kept, etc. You won't really know if this is even a possibility until that occurs *and* everyone is feeling positive about it with no major reservations. If you'd like to look over a copy of the agreement we started with, you're welcome to email me - I may have a Word file I can dig up somewhere. (And I somehow had forgotten while writing this that my son just recently established a boat partnership with another pilot at a Navy base in Hawaii - they both wanted a larger deep-V runabout, neither could afford it, both are new to boat ownership, and their deployment skeds are different...we'll see how long this one lasts, too!) Jack jack_patricia@yahoo.com
Hi, John... I'm not sure how good an idea it would be for you, but you'd never know from reading the other posts here that this is done on occasion, and with much success. As one example, their are regular Editor letters in Latitude 38 from folks doing just this. As another example, friends of ours were using their Hunter 34 very little but hated to give it and sailing up completely. There was/is no viable 'boat share' business in our area offering hourly/daily rentals (which is a great option for a different kind of sailing) and so they rewrote a plane co-ownership agreement that we had been using when sharing a small plane. In the end, they found a couple from another area whom they did not know, they met at the boat, much discussion ensued, and they've now had a solid arrangement for 4 years. And this included significant problems with the boat and some expensive repairs in the Bahamas, which is a good test of the agreement as well as the people. Here's why I think both agreements (our plane partnership with 3 partners was also very successful for some years and is still ongoing with other owners) worked well: 1. The people turned out to be compatible but also different, meaning we all had roughly the same values about maintenance, location, how to share use, cleanliness, etc. but differing interests made it natural to distribute responsibilities. E.g. perhaps one of you will be more inclined to service the engine annually, while another is more inclined to wax the hull. But take a good look at your neighbors' cars, homes, yards and kids. Is there really similarities sufficient to warrant further discussion? 2. The original agreement we all used is/was VERY thorough (and in fact had been developed over time by an aircraft owners' association); also, much of it needs to be refined thru thorough discussion between the interested parties, and only if there's agreement about the terms does the partnership have a good shot at succeeding. 3. In the cases I'm referring to, there was somewhat of a built-in compatibility in how the plane and boat were going to be used. E.g. with the plane, I worked a typical job, partner #2 was semi-retired and wanted to fly on the less crowded weekdays, and #3 was an airline pilot who's schedule was different from either of us. With the boat, it's used in large chunks - when the Midwest couple can get down to enjoy the nice weather here in Florida - and so Owners #1 plan their extended use of it accordingly. If all you neighbors work M-F, 8-5...well, you get my point. 4. You don't mention where you're located but one great benefit of a partnership *could* be that you could increase the size, capability or equipment on the boat to further the range of activities it will support, make the boat satisfactory to you for a longer period before being traded off, and give you the chance for overnighting, weekending, beer can races, etc. 5. Somewhat related to 4. above, don't miss the critical importance of what is to happen should one partner want out by selling his/her share. It's likely that one family's personal circumstances or affection for sailing will cause this to happen, altho' it in fact can be a healthy thing for the evolution of the partnership. (E.g. the fellow who bought out my plane share is a great mechanic; I don't think the other partners have ever had it better!) This is not a slam dunk option. The first real test of its viability is whether you and your neighbors can have a full, candid discussion of the idea, the only intended result being to get everyone to consider it further, ID'ing their "must haves", how you'd address the details, who would handle the money (you'll need a new, separate checking account), where would it be kept, etc. You won't really know if this is even a possibility until that occurs *and* everyone is feeling positive about it with no major reservations. If you'd like to look over a copy of the agreement we started with, you're welcome to email me - I may have a Word file I can dig up somewhere. (And I somehow had forgotten while writing this that my son just recently established a boat partnership with another pilot at a Navy base in Hawaii - they both wanted a larger deep-V runabout, neither could afford it, both are new to boat ownership, and their deployment skeds are different...we'll see how long this one lasts, too!) Jack jack_patricia@yahoo.com
A great idea
It is not even close to the same as a time-share condo, where there is a greedy third party involved. It's just you and your neighbor going halvsies. You need a good relationship to start, common goals, and a very good contract with lots of details about how one bails out. Patience Wales, the previous editor of "Sail Magazine" bought her last boat in a partnership. I'll bet that at least half of all privately-owned airplanes are shared. All you have to do is look at the boats sitting unused in their slips on summer weekends to understand how this could work.
It is not even close to the same as a time-share condo, where there is a greedy third party involved. It's just you and your neighbor going halvsies. You need a good relationship to start, common goals, and a very good contract with lots of details about how one bails out. Patience Wales, the previous editor of "Sail Magazine" bought her last boat in a partnership. I'll bet that at least half of all privately-owned airplanes are shared. All you have to do is look at the boats sitting unused in their slips on summer weekends to understand how this could work.
It can work
I did it with my father-in-law for 5 years on a C22. Here's why it worked fine for us. 1. It was easy to maintain and relatively low cost (under $5k). 2. If the other wanted out, it was not a stretch for either of us to assume the full cost ourselves. 3. We agreed on each of the maintainance and upgrade items beforehand. 4. We knew it would be for a limited time only, to reduce our expenses if it turned out that our families did not enjoy sailing. If you are thinking along these lines, you can do it informally and still keep your friendship even if one of you wants out after a few years.
I did it with my father-in-law for 5 years on a C22. Here's why it worked fine for us. 1. It was easy to maintain and relatively low cost (under $5k). 2. If the other wanted out, it was not a stretch for either of us to assume the full cost ourselves. 3. We agreed on each of the maintainance and upgrade items beforehand. 4. We knew it would be for a limited time only, to reduce our expenses if it turned out that our families did not enjoy sailing. If you are thinking along these lines, you can do it informally and still keep your friendship even if one of you wants out after a few years.
Be flexible
My sister & bro-in-law have a "co-owned" houseboat on Lake Powell - the only way they could afford one. They've actually been partners in two houseboats and both partnerships worked out well. They had detailed contracts and understandings of maintenance. Since all of the owners lived far away from the houseboat, they had/have a very detailed schedule of who gets the boat when. That said, they also have learned they have to be very flexible and patient, often looking the other way when it would be very easy to get upset. One minor example that could easily have turned not so minor was the simple task of naming the boat. My sis was really hep on one name, the other owners really wanted a different name. My sis & broinlaw decided to just go with whatever the other couple wanted in almost all matters cuz they hardly ever used the boat, giving Sandy & Keith MUCH more time than was "equitable". Personally, if you're living next door to these people, I would really think long & hard about this. It might make more sense to work something out with a stranger cuz if it falls apart, at least you don't have to look at them every day! LaDonna
My sister & bro-in-law have a "co-owned" houseboat on Lake Powell - the only way they could afford one. They've actually been partners in two houseboats and both partnerships worked out well. They had detailed contracts and understandings of maintenance. Since all of the owners lived far away from the houseboat, they had/have a very detailed schedule of who gets the boat when. That said, they also have learned they have to be very flexible and patient, often looking the other way when it would be very easy to get upset. One minor example that could easily have turned not so minor was the simple task of naming the boat. My sis was really hep on one name, the other owners really wanted a different name. My sis & broinlaw decided to just go with whatever the other couple wanted in almost all matters cuz they hardly ever used the boat, giving Sandy & Keith MUCH more time than was "equitable". Personally, if you're living next door to these people, I would really think long & hard about this. It might make more sense to work something out with a stranger cuz if it falls apart, at least you don't have to look at them every day! LaDonna
Try it on paper first
I would sit down and work out things on paper BEFORE you commit to anything at all. Set down the costs, time (work and play) involved, how you resolve disputes (there will always be some) and how you disolve the arrangement. If you can do this and still leave as you started then maybe there is hope. Consider also if something happens to one party (ie illness, death etc), the vessel or even a divorce. Speak to a lawyer just to make sure you are both protected.
I would sit down and work out things on paper BEFORE you commit to anything at all. Set down the costs, time (work and play) involved, how you resolve disputes (there will always be some) and how you disolve the arrangement. If you can do this and still leave as you started then maybe there is hope. Consider also if something happens to one party (ie illness, death etc), the vessel or even a divorce. Speak to a lawyer just to make sure you are both protected.
Co-owning is a pain in the .......
I have found, for me, that co-owning anything always causes trouble. Somebody is always feeling like they are bearing more of the burden than the other or something is unfair. The first hint that this is not a good idea is that your wife doesn't like it. She may or may not be able to articulate why but I bet she is right that this is a bad idea. Women have an insight into relationships that is often correct. My suggestion is follow her advise. Best of luck! I always like to play with my own toys
I have found, for me, that co-owning anything always causes trouble. Somebody is always feeling like they are bearing more of the burden than the other or something is unfair. The first hint that this is not a good idea is that your wife doesn't like it. She may or may not be able to articulate why but I bet she is right that this is a bad idea. Women have an insight into relationships that is often correct. My suggestion is follow her advise. Best of luck! I always like to play with my own toys
wow, so much wisdom!
I am really impressed by the responses in just 24 hours. Thanks for all your input. Steve- yes, I know how smart my wife is, she was the valadictorian of my high school class and graduated suma cum laude with a masters degree in statistics - I scraped by with a B average : ) Julia- I am 10th of 11 children, sharing seems pretty natural - also getting something used has never bothered me. Jim- I have never leased a car, but I have vowed never to finance a boat. Everyone else -thanks for the encouragement and the warnings. You gave me a lot to think about, whatever decision I make now will be with my eyes open. john
I am really impressed by the responses in just 24 hours. Thanks for all your input. Steve- yes, I know how smart my wife is, she was the valadictorian of my high school class and graduated suma cum laude with a masters degree in statistics - I scraped by with a B average : ) Julia- I am 10th of 11 children, sharing seems pretty natural - also getting something used has never bothered me. Jim- I have never leased a car, but I have vowed never to finance a boat. Everyone else -thanks for the encouragement and the warnings. You gave me a lot to think about, whatever decision I make now will be with my eyes open. john
DON'T DO IT!
More times than not, friendships have dissolved because of this situation. Not saying it's always this way, just the majority that I've seen and heard of. Doesn't matter if it's a boat, plane, car, house...the quickest way to end a friendship is to introduce a partnership and throw money into the mix. Just my two-cents (U.S.) Cheers, Bob
More times than not, friendships have dissolved because of this situation. Not saying it's always this way, just the majority that I've seen and heard of. Doesn't matter if it's a boat, plane, car, house...the quickest way to end a friendship is to introduce a partnership and throw money into the mix. Just my two-cents (U.S.) Cheers, Bob
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