My wife and kids made a comment this weekend,and I hate to admit it, but they are right. On trips (a big part f our sailing experience) we motor much more than we sail, and at less than 7 knots. The argument goes something like this, since we motor so much, how about a boat that at least makes 20 knots so we can get there in less time and have some fun/quiet time. "Yeah and dad can have a sunfish to sail when he wants to experience the thrill of a sail." Ouch that hurts. So what about it sailors, anyone else fell the preasure to increase the speed? Russell S/V (for now) Allie Kat
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Ya Gotta do what ya gotta do
Family First.. If it's a problem with the wife and rugrats you better think it over. When I had my H23 (which I loved) my wife never sailed with me because of seasickness. I bit the bullet and stepped up to our H37C and now she loves it. My point is, your family will only be young and with you for a short time so do what ever you must to keep them happy and looking forward to family time. There will be other sailboats in your life, but only one family.... Good Luck Ron
Family First.. If it's a problem with the wife and rugrats you better think it over. When I had my H23 (which I loved) my wife never sailed with me because of seasickness. I bit the bullet and stepped up to our H37C and now she loves it. My point is, your family will only be young and with you for a short time so do what ever you must to keep them happy and looking forward to family time. There will be other sailboats in your life, but only one family.... Good Luck Ron
Tell them to write the check.
Russell: Yes a slight increase in speed would be good. BUT, there is an a couple of associated costs that go along with this NEED FOR SPEED. The typical sailboat is consumming somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/2-1 gal of fuel per hour. If you move into a troller class vessel with these types of speeds we would see the fuel consumption go from our levels to something in the area of 5-25 gph. Now given that many are paying in the $2+ vicinity, we have added this cost to our recreation. On top of that we now have 2 motors to worry about instead of one, two props and two shafts. These boats are usually more expensive to begin with and when you run out of liquid fuel on one of these puppies you are really screwed. So yes I have thought about it but only as long as it took me to write this and then I get back to reality. Go slow and enjoy it for a lot less.
Russell: Yes a slight increase in speed would be good. BUT, there is an a couple of associated costs that go along with this NEED FOR SPEED. The typical sailboat is consumming somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/2-1 gal of fuel per hour. If you move into a troller class vessel with these types of speeds we would see the fuel consumption go from our levels to something in the area of 5-25 gph. Now given that many are paying in the $2+ vicinity, we have added this cost to our recreation. On top of that we now have 2 motors to worry about instead of one, two props and two shafts. These boats are usually more expensive to begin with and when you run out of liquid fuel on one of these puppies you are really screwed. So yes I have thought about it but only as long as it took me to write this and then I get back to reality. Go slow and enjoy it for a lot less.
Maybe it's time to see clearly....
Gad, I think I qualify to express an opinion on this subject now as I have a boat with a ridiculous amount of dockside only systems. It is truly a floating Winnabago but once away from the dock sailing's the thing and it does that well even if I have to haul that stuff around. Maybe it's time to see clearly what your family likes about boating. It sounds like the destination is the thing for them and not the journey. Sailing is a journey endeavor. A trawler and a J24-J30 might be just the ticket. Charter a trawler for an outing and see what the opinions are.
Gad, I think I qualify to express an opinion on this subject now as I have a boat with a ridiculous amount of dockside only systems. It is truly a floating Winnabago but once away from the dock sailing's the thing and it does that well even if I have to haul that stuff around. Maybe it's time to see clearly what your family likes about boating. It sounds like the destination is the thing for them and not the journey. Sailing is a journey endeavor. A trawler and a J24-J30 might be just the ticket. Charter a trawler for an outing and see what the opinions are.
Can't resist playing devil's advocate 
From pt A to pt B is 10 miles. 10 miles at max hull speed of 7 knots means 7hrs to go 10 miles. At 1 gal/hr, that's 10 gallons of fuel. 10 miles at 20 mph in my boat takes 30 minutes...she burns 14 gal/hr, which is only 7 gallons of fuel. And I have 6.5 hours to relax in the anchorage while I wait for you. If one engine doesn't start when it's time to go home, I have another one...in fact, when I first started bringing Solitaire back from "floating bag lady," I came home on one engine--going straight to windward btw--more than once. And believe it or not, on average it costs 20% MORE--*including fuel*--to maintain a sailboat to specs than it does to maintain a comparable size powerboat. Except for the principal means of propulsion, powerboat and sailboat systems are about the same--we both have toilets, fresh water systems, 12v electrical systems, refrigeration, maybe heat/ac, gelcoat, bottom paint, etc. All a stinkpot needs to keep running is regular oil changes and about the same amount of routine maintenance as a car. Sailboats have sails, running rigging, standing rigging, winches etc..all of which break, get torn up in storms, and wear out a lot faster than any engine. For the price of a big top quality self-tailing winch, I can replace an engine...for what a friend spent for two not-so-big winches, a new main and a couple of jibs, I could replace BOTH engines and have money left over. My engines are original, 20 years old and only needed about $3,000 worth of work--even after years of neglect to get 'em purring again...and they still have at least another 1000 hrs left in 'em before they'll ever need more than regular oil changes or maybe a new fuel pump or carburator...show me a comparable sized (30-35') 20 yr old sailboat whose entire original "power plant" could even be salvaged after 20 yrs of neglect....you'd be looking at at least $10k to replace all the sails and rigging. The rest of any restoration--hull work, systems--would be about same whether it's power or sail. But that's not what it's about. Stinkpotting is about getting from point A to point B...sailing can be summed up best in the old joke about the powerboat who pulled up alongside a sailboat and asked where they were going...and the sailboat answered, "we're already there." I guarantee the kids will love screaming along at hull speed on the sailboat when the wind is up...I do--7 knots with the rails in the water is a WHOLE lot more exciting than 20 in Solitaire! But kids get bored cooped up just puckity-pucking along all day when there's no wind, or it's coming from the wrong direction. So maybe the answer to Russ' kid problem is a ski boat/runabout in addition to the sailboat.
From pt A to pt B is 10 miles. 10 miles at max hull speed of 7 knots means 7hrs to go 10 miles. At 1 gal/hr, that's 10 gallons of fuel. 10 miles at 20 mph in my boat takes 30 minutes...she burns 14 gal/hr, which is only 7 gallons of fuel. And I have 6.5 hours to relax in the anchorage while I wait for you.
If one engine doesn't start when it's time to go home, I have another one...in fact, when I first started bringing Solitaire back from "floating bag lady," I came home on one engine--going straight to windward btw--more than once. And believe it or not, on average it costs 20% MORE--*including fuel*--to maintain a sailboat to specs than it does to maintain a comparable size powerboat. Except for the principal means of propulsion, powerboat and sailboat systems are about the same--we both have toilets, fresh water systems, 12v electrical systems, refrigeration, maybe heat/ac, gelcoat, bottom paint, etc. All a stinkpot needs to keep running is regular oil changes and about the same amount of routine maintenance as a car. Sailboats have sails, running rigging, standing rigging, winches etc..all of which break, get torn up in storms, and wear out a lot faster than any engine. For the price of a big top quality self-tailing winch, I can replace an engine...for what a friend spent for two not-so-big winches, a new main and a couple of jibs, I could replace BOTH engines and have money left over. My engines are original, 20 years old and only needed about $3,000 worth of work--even after years of neglect to get 'em purring again...and they still have at least another 1000 hrs left in 'em before they'll ever need more than regular oil changes or maybe a new fuel pump or carburator...show me a comparable sized (30-35') 20 yr old sailboat whose entire original "power plant" could even be salvaged after 20 yrs of neglect....you'd be looking at at least $10k to replace all the sails and rigging. The rest of any restoration--hull work, systems--would be about same whether it's power or sail. But that's not what it's about. Stinkpotting is about getting from point A to point B...sailing can be summed up best in the old joke about the powerboat who pulled up alongside a sailboat and asked where they were going...and the sailboat answered, "we're already there." I guarantee the kids will love screaming along at hull speed on the sailboat when the wind is up...I do--7 knots with the rails in the water is a WHOLE lot more exciting than 20 in Solitaire! But kids get bored cooped up just puckity-pucking along all day when there's no wind, or it's coming from the wrong direction. So maybe the answer to Russ' kid problem is a ski boat/runabout in addition to the sailboat.Uh Peggie?
Time for a new calculator I think... Your sailboat example. 10 miles at 7 knots... Takes 1.42 hours = 1.42 gallons or 1/10th what the powerboat used, but you knew that, right?
Time for a new calculator I think... Your sailboat example. 10 miles at 7 knots... Takes 1.42 hours = 1.42 gallons or 1/10th what the powerboat used, but you knew that, right?
errr... Peggie...
You wrote "From pt A to pt B is 10 miles. 10 miles at max hull speed of 7 knots means 7hrs to go 10 miles. At 1 gal/hr, that's 10 gallons of fuel. " Huh? Is this the "new math" or something??? 8^) Anyway, Russ, the answer to your question is in Peggie's post (other than fuel economy...). Is your goal the destination or the trip there? I'd much rather spend the time on the trip. But then I'm partial to quiet and having the time to look around. But once I'm at the anchorage give me my speedy dinghy to get to the snorkel, fish, restaurant, beach whatever... ASAP. Jim "Prospect"
You wrote "From pt A to pt B is 10 miles. 10 miles at max hull speed of 7 knots means 7hrs to go 10 miles. At 1 gal/hr, that's 10 gallons of fuel. " Huh? Is this the "new math" or something??? 8^) Anyway, Russ, the answer to your question is in Peggie's post (other than fuel economy...). Is your goal the destination or the trip there? I'd much rather spend the time on the trip. But then I'm partial to quiet and having the time to look around. But once I'm at the anchorage give me my speedy dinghy to get to the snorkel, fish, restaurant, beach whatever... ASAP. Jim "Prospect"
Still wrong. It's 1.24 hours, "knot"
1.42 hours. Peggy said 10 MILES at 7 KNOTS. Ten statute miles is only 8.7 nautical miles. But what an interesting question Russ poses. It is an easy answer for me because of my age, old! No kids at home with several years of powerboating(including competitively) and waterskiing in my past. And I agree with the others, the journey is why I sail. In the two years I have owned my H37C I have yet to reach an anchorage. We get the best breeze in the best direction and trim away. Then we turn around and try it the other way. Some kids appreciate this, especially if they have had time on something small and fast like a laser. Most do not. This boat was for me. Selfish? You bet!
1.42 hours. Peggy said 10 MILES at 7 KNOTS. Ten statute miles is only 8.7 nautical miles. But what an interesting question Russ poses. It is an easy answer for me because of my age, old! No kids at home with several years of powerboating(including competitively) and waterskiing in my past. And I agree with the others, the journey is why I sail. In the two years I have owned my H37C I have yet to reach an anchorage. We get the best breeze in the best direction and trim away. Then we turn around and try it the other way. Some kids appreciate this, especially if they have had time on something small and fast like a laser. Most do not. This boat was for me. Selfish? You bet!
Search your heart young Skywalker
and remember once you start down the "dark side" it is difficult to return.... Sounds like we're in the same boat. For my family the destination is usually the reason for the trip which makes the speed of the sailboat a souce of irritation. I try to counter that two ways, first keep the crew involved. Since last summer my nine year old daughter is "in charge" and piloting the boat when we leave the slip, and we have the scraches and dings to prove it. But, that little girl has gotten pretty darn good at backing out in a cross wind and I love the looks we get while my wife and I sit on the foredeck. We also keep the boat in a marina that has several creeks and other destinations within 5-15 miles so we keep the trips relatively short. Last summer we "marina hopped" spending 1-2 months in different areas using short trips to fully explore the surroundings. I agree with an earlyer posting that basically said ya gotta do what ya gotta do to keep the family happy, but make sure you try everything before you start down the dark side
and remember once you start down the "dark side" it is difficult to return.... Sounds like we're in the same boat. For my family the destination is usually the reason for the trip which makes the speed of the sailboat a souce of irritation. I try to counter that two ways, first keep the crew involved. Since last summer my nine year old daughter is "in charge" and piloting the boat when we leave the slip, and we have the scraches and dings to prove it. But, that little girl has gotten pretty darn good at backing out in a cross wind and I love the looks we get while my wife and I sit on the foredeck. We also keep the boat in a marina that has several creeks and other destinations within 5-15 miles so we keep the trips relatively short. Last summer we "marina hopped" spending 1-2 months in different areas using short trips to fully explore the surroundings. I agree with an earlyer posting that basically said ya gotta do what ya gotta do to keep the family happy, but make sure you try everything before you start down the dark side
Knot computing!
Please help me...I dropped my calculator overboard! If I can make 7 knots, how long will it take me to travel 7 nautical miles? (Assume no current.)
Please help me...I dropped my calculator overboard! If I can make 7 knots, how long will it take me to travel 7 nautical miles? (Assume no current.)
I sometimes wish..
that I didn't have a sailboat when there is no wind or it's coming from the wrong direction and we have about 60 miles to go. But, on the other side of the coin when the wind is blowing and your sailing at hull speed there is nothing better! I'd take an earlier suggestion and buy a small outboard for "banging around" and curing the "need for speed" That's what I did last spring. Only have an hour or two? It's amazing how much ground you can cover at 35 Knots.
that I didn't have a sailboat when there is no wind or it's coming from the wrong direction and we have about 60 miles to go. But, on the other side of the coin when the wind is blowing and your sailing at hull speed there is nothing better! I'd take an earlier suggestion and buy a small outboard for "banging around" and curing the "need for speed" That's what I did last spring. Only have an hour or two? It's amazing how much ground you can cover at 35 Knots.
Ooops...
It looks like my calculator developed a short circuit! Signed... Mathmatically challenged. ps. Thank heaven for Monday...without it, Tuesdays are a disaster.
It looks like my calculator developed a short circuit! Signed... Mathmatically challenged. ps. Thank heaven for Monday...without it, Tuesdays are a disaster.
Mark, you reminded me of a great story...
A couple liked to sail their boat to a quiet anchorage where she would spend the day reading in the cockpit, while he'd take the dinghy--which he'd outfitted with everything he needed--off somewhere to spend the day fishing. One day, he decided to stay aboard and fish from the cockpit, so she took her book and went off in the dinghy to find a nice spot to drift and read. Suddenly she was interrupted when the sheriff roared in his patrol boat. "These are restricted waters, no fishing allowed," he told her. "But I'm not fishing," she replied, I'm reading." "Well, you have all the equipment to fish, so I'm gonna have to take your boat in tow and take you in to the sheriff's office." "If you lay one finger on this boat, I'll start screaming 'rape," she replied. "But that wouldn't be true," he said. "I haven't touched you!" "So what," she said. "You have all the equipment!"
A couple liked to sail their boat to a quiet anchorage where she would spend the day reading in the cockpit, while he'd take the dinghy--which he'd outfitted with everything he needed--off somewhere to spend the day fishing. One day, he decided to stay aboard and fish from the cockpit, so she took her book and went off in the dinghy to find a nice spot to drift and read. Suddenly she was interrupted when the sheriff roared in his patrol boat. "These are restricted waters, no fishing allowed," he told her. "But I'm not fishing," she replied, I'm reading." "Well, you have all the equipment to fish, so I'm gonna have to take your boat in tow and take you in to the sheriff's office." "If you lay one finger on this boat, I'll start screaming 'rape," she replied. "But that wouldn't be true," he said. "I haven't touched you!" "So what," she said. "You have all the equipment!"
Peggie, poor peggie.
Peggie: Just remember, when you are wrong, no one forgets. When you are correct, no one remembers (unless it has to do with Sani-systems). We all make these little faux-paux, don't you just wish we could keep them to ourselves? Now how much cheaper is the stink pot<grin>?
Peggie: Just remember, when you are wrong, no one forgets. When you are correct, no one remembers (unless it has to do with Sani-systems). We all make these little faux-paux, don't you just wish we could keep them to ourselves? Now how much cheaper is the stink pot<grin>?
Math may have been off...
But the rest correct Steve. On average, it really does cost about 20% less--including fuel--to operate and maintain a powerboat than a comparable size sailboat. That's average...and remember, because stinkpotting is destination oriented, most powerboats spend FAR less time underway than most sailboats. Sailors go out for the afteroon and spend the whole time sailing...'potters go find an anchorage, drop the hook or raft up, and stay there till it's time to go home. So fuel costs aren't nearly what you'd think they'd be. 10 miles may have been a bad example--too short a trip. However, I also doubt you'd get 1 gal/hr making full hull speed of 7 knots...I'd guess closer to 5 gal/hr at WOT. Assume 14 gal/hr for my boat (that's not WOT, but cruising just fast enough to stay on plane), and play with your own fuel consumption a bit...I THINK you'll find I'm not as far off the mark as it appeared from my demented math. Btw...I'm gonna be at the Newport boat show on the 15th and 16th...anybody else gonna be there?
But the rest correct Steve. On average, it really does cost about 20% less--including fuel--to operate and maintain a powerboat than a comparable size sailboat. That's average...and remember, because stinkpotting is destination oriented, most powerboats spend FAR less time underway than most sailboats. Sailors go out for the afteroon and spend the whole time sailing...'potters go find an anchorage, drop the hook or raft up, and stay there till it's time to go home. So fuel costs aren't nearly what you'd think they'd be. 10 miles may have been a bad example--too short a trip. However, I also doubt you'd get 1 gal/hr making full hull speed of 7 knots...I'd guess closer to 5 gal/hr at WOT. Assume 14 gal/hr for my boat (that's not WOT, but cruising just fast enough to stay on plane), and play with your own fuel consumption a bit...I THINK you'll find I'm not as far off the mark as it appeared from my demented math.
Btw...I'm gonna be at the Newport boat show on the 15th and 16th...anybody else gonna be there?No, really. The logic doesn't work.
Some facts as I perceive them: -I burn 0.5 gallons/hr at 6 knots, but only when the motor is on. -a new self tailing 40 series winch is about $900 which might buy a used 8hp outboard. -a sailboat BY DEFINITION has a backup to a broken motor. -the motors in most gas powerboats will last *many* fewer years than the small, low power diesel in my sailboat that gets about 100 hours of usage per season. But its NOT about money. You either like sailing or you don't. To get your family on board, make it more approachable. When I go, I am sure to include short passages for the less die-hard. You're in Wickford? Take the family to Conanicut or Newport overnight and hit the town. During my summer long trip, I make my inital long passage and a final long passage returning without my wife; my Dad or brother fill in. She joins me for the middle part and skips the dull part.
Some facts as I perceive them: -I burn 0.5 gallons/hr at 6 knots, but only when the motor is on. -a new self tailing 40 series winch is about $900 which might buy a used 8hp outboard. -a sailboat BY DEFINITION has a backup to a broken motor. -the motors in most gas powerboats will last *many* fewer years than the small, low power diesel in my sailboat that gets about 100 hours of usage per season. But its NOT about money. You either like sailing or you don't. To get your family on board, make it more approachable. When I go, I am sure to include short passages for the less die-hard. You're in Wickford? Take the family to Conanicut or Newport overnight and hit the town. During my summer long trip, I make my inital long passage and a final long passage returning without my wife; my Dad or brother fill in. She joins me for the middle part and skips the dull part.
It's not about $$, but speed . . .
The problem that everyone seems to be missing is that Russell's issue is not necessarily with the cost of boating per se, rather the family thinks the boat is too slow to be able to get where they want to be going. At the risk of being charged with heresy on a Hunter-associated forum, I have the solution and it generates a Win-Win situation for both Russ and his family. The answer is called a Coarsair Marine F-28 trimaran. I've sailed this kind aof sailboat and it's speed is truly breathtaking imagine a 28' sailboat that can (and does) sail at between 15 to 20 knots with less heel than a 30' monohull at 5 knots. This way Russell gets the boat he wants and the family fulfills the "need for speed". While an F-28 is more expensive than a similarly sized monohull, the boat fits the bill for Russell's issue. Point made
The problem that everyone seems to be missing is that Russell's issue is not necessarily with the cost of boating per se, rather the family thinks the boat is too slow to be able to get where they want to be going. At the risk of being charged with heresy on a Hunter-associated forum, I have the solution and it generates a Win-Win situation for both Russ and his family. The answer is called a Coarsair Marine F-28 trimaran. I've sailed this kind aof sailboat and it's speed is truly breathtaking imagine a 28' sailboat that can (and does) sail at between 15 to 20 knots with less heel than a 30' monohull at 5 knots. This way Russell gets the boat he wants and the family fulfills the "need for speed". While an F-28 is more expensive than a similarly sized monohull, the boat fits the bill for Russell's issue. Point made
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