Tartan 33R Throttle Cable

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Schwarz633

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Jul 3, 2021
9
Tartan 33R Lake Michigan
I'm in the process of purchasing a 33R (#5) and just had the sea trial yesterday with the owner. It has the original Universal 5424 diesel. I believe there's something off with the throttle, as when he was demonstrating the engine shutdown procedure to me, he had to pull aft on the lever for 20 seconds to kill the engine. When I tried it after returning to the slip I was afraid I was going to break off the lever, as I had to pull back really hard on it for that 20 seconds before the engine shut down. I'm hoping that a cable adjustment will take care of that. Would that adjustment be in the pedestal or at the engine?

I didn't start the engine, but showed me the procedure. It looked like the key switch was 3-postion (off/on/start). He stressed that after starting the engine the key switch should be set to off. He explained that the on position turned on the fuel pump, which was only required for starting. That didn't make any sense to me, but I did hear a click when he turned it from off to on prior to starting the engine, which he said was the fuel pump. Is it possible that the click was a fuel solenoid that isn't closing when turned off?
 
jviss

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
1. I'm not familiar with that kind of speed control, where you can pull it back to shut down the engine. Typically, on Universals I've encountered, there's a separate cable one pulls to shut off the fuel supply to the injector pump. Perhaps that''s what this one does. Do you know who makes the control?

2. The switch story is a bit weird. I would think you'd want it on when running, as this typically energizes the control panel and the voltage regulator; and you'd also want the electric fuel pump running always. Do you know what panel it is, or have a picture of it? Schematics of these panels are available.
 
kappykaplan

kappykaplan

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May 1, 2011
4,532
Pearson 37 Lusby MD
Is it possible that this sequence reduces engine idle to a speed that will no longer support combustion?
 
S

Schwarz633

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Jul 3, 2021
9
Tartan 33R Lake Michigan
jviss said:
1. I'm not familiar with that kind of speed control, where you can pull it back to shut down the engine. Typically, on Universals I've encountered, there's a separate cable one pulls to shut off the fuel supply to the injector pump. Perhaps that''s what this one does. Do you know who makes the control?

2. The switch story is a bit weird. I would think you'd want it on when running, as this typically energizes the control panel and the voltage regulator; and you'd also want the electric fuel pump running always. Do you know what panel it is, or have a picture of it? Schematics of these panels are available.
Click to expand
The manual also mentions pulling the throttle lever back from the idle detent position to stop the engine. I suspect a cable adjustment will take care of this.

According to the Tartan manual, the switch should be left in the on position until the engine is stopped. The way the owner is operating it, the batteries are probably never getting charged from the alternator. He also told me that he starts the engine with the engine battery selected, then switches to the house battery while the engine is running. I guess that's OK if you don't pass through the OFF position. Or in his case, if he turns the key switch to off after the engine has started, the alternator is probably disconnected anyway. I'm not sure if there's a fuel pump or not.

Pedestal.JPG


ControlPanel.JPG
 
jviss

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Yea, something's off here. The owner doesn't know how to operate this, I guess. I'll bet there's a fuel pump. Looks like an Edson pedestal. Also, looks like a panel for an Atomic four, a gas engine. Was this one repowered?
 
jssailem

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
21,729
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Schwarz633 said:
  1. engine shutdown procedure to me, he had to pull aft on the lever for 20 seconds to kill the engine.
  2. showed me the (Start) procedure. It looked like the key switch was 3-postion (off/on/start). He stressed that after starting the engine the key switch should be set to off. He explained that the on position turned on the fuel pump, which was only required for starting.
  3. That didn't make any sense to me,
Click to expand
Congrats on your possible purchase. It is difficult to argue with an owner when he is sharing with pride the love of his life that he is letting go. I can understand your confusion and concern. What was described goes against my knowledge base and experiences. I have attached a copy of the engine manual developed by Universal for the 5424. It is a reliable source.

Shutting down the engine:
It sounds like the owner found that if you starve the diesel of fuel, it will stop. With no electric pump to move the fuel from the tank to the engine and the throttle forced to the stop, the engine becomes starved of fuel and will quit. This is valid as long as there is no diesel in the oil sump and the valves are in good shape to stop the ingestion of diesel and oil into the cylinders. The manual explains this procedure on page 12. There is a spring that is engaged when the throttle is pulled all the way back beyond idle. Inspect the throttle linkage and adjust as necessary.

Starting the 5424:
The manual also covers this. The normal procedure is to use the electric fuel pump while the engine runs. This ensures that an adequate fuel supply is provided to the engine.

It sounds like you should inspect the alternator and battery system to be sure it is properly functioning.

Trust your gut and then check the manuals.
 

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S

Schwarz633

.
Jul 3, 2021
9
Tartan 33R Lake Michigan
jviss said:
Yea, something's off here. The owner doesn't know how to operate this, I guess. I'll bet there's a fuel pump. Looks like an Edson pedestal. Also, looks like a panel for an Atomic four, a gas engine. Was this one repowered?
Click to expand
Original engine, apparently Universal carried the Atomic name over to the diesels.

5424.JPG
 
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S

Schwarz633

.
Jul 3, 2021
9
Tartan 33R Lake Michigan
jssailem said:
Congrats on your possible purchase. It is difficult to argue with an owner when he is sharing with pride the love of his life that he is letting go. I can understand your confusion and concern. What was described goes against my knowledge base and experiences. I have attached a copy of the engine manual developed by Universal for the 5424. It is a reliable source.

Shutting down the engine:
It sounds like the owner found that if you starve the diesel of fuel, it will stop. With no electric pump to move the fuel from the tank to the engine and the throttle forced to the stop, the engine becomes starved of fuel and will quit. This is valid as long as there is no diesel in the oil sump and the valves are in good shape to stop the ingestion of diesel and oil into the cylinders. The manual explains this procedure on page 12. There is a spring that is engaged when the throttle is pulled all the way back beyond idle. Inspect the throttle linkage and adjust as necessary.

Starting the 5424:
The manual also covers this. The normal procedure is to use the electric fuel pump while the engine runs. This ensures that an adequate fuel supply is provided to the engine.

It sounds like you should inspect the alternator and battery system to be sure it is properly functioning.

Trust your gut and then check the manuals.
Click to expand
I have an older version (typewriter style) Universal manual that has the tachometer included on the wiring diagram, but this newer one is much appreciated. After reviewing the wiring diagram I've come to the conclusion that while the tachometer and ammeter will function with the key off, the oil pressure light and temperature gauge will not. I didn't really look at any of that when the engine was running. I guess once the injection pump is primed, it must be capable of drawing fuel from the tank. I did observe that the tank was full, so that may not be the case when near empty.
 
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shemandr

shemandr

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Jan 1, 2006
7,244
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I've sailed on two 33's with the universal diesels and my recollection is that pulling the throttle back all the way stops the engine.
I don't know about the fuel pump or ignition. The panel does look the same.
 
S

Schwarz633

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Jul 3, 2021
9
Tartan 33R Lake Michigan
shemandr said:
I've sailed on two 33's with the universal diesels and my recollection is that pulling the throttle back all the way stops the engine.
I don't know about the fuel pump or ignition. The panel does look the same.
Click to expand
Yes, that's how it's supposed to operate. The issue here is how hard you have to pull back on it and how long it takes for the engine to stop. In looking at some Universal manuals, it looks like there's a separate shutdown arm on the injection pump that must be somehow linked to the throttle arm, jssailem mentioned a spring. I'll have to check that out once I take possession of the boat.
 
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jssailem

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
21,729
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
On my Perkins, there is a solenoid when energized, pulls a lever on the High-Pressure injector pump to stop the engine (fuel starvation). You may find something similar triggered when the throttle is pulled past the "Idle" detent to the "engine stop".
 
S

Schwarz633

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Jul 3, 2021
9
Tartan 33R Lake Michigan
There is an electric fuel pump:

IMG_2146.JPG


As it turns out, the pedestal is a Yacht Specialties, not happy about that.

There is only one throttle arm on the engine. The cable operates this arm, but there is an inline spring involved, that when compressed, allows the arm to go to the engine stop position. It seems like the pedestal lever isn't providing enough cable travel, as the full range of the lever isn't moving the arm on the engine from stop to stop. Unfortunately, this cable/spring mechanism is located in the most inaccessible spot on the engine.

I need to get a look inside of the pedestal, but can't figure out how to remove the compass. Any suggestions?

YS Pedestal
 
S

Schwarz633

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Jul 3, 2021
9
Tartan 33R Lake Michigan
As I'm contemplating this pedestal situation and looking at my pictures, it would seem to me that the cables must cross in the YS pedestal, or the steering would be reversed. Can that be?
 
S

Schwarz633

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Jul 3, 2021
9
Tartan 33R Lake Michigan
I have added some new pictures to the album:

YS Pedestal

Removal of the compass wasn't that difficult once I got after it. The control lever section is metal, not plastic like I've read. I'm going to try some Fluid-Film lubricant on the chain and wheel/lever pivot points and see what happens. This YS pedestal may be a keeper, the upgrade to an Edson is pretty expensive and not exactly a slam dunk. The YS flange bolts are on a 6.5" x 6.5" pattern and I think the Edson is 6" x 6".
 
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