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Swing into the water& out of the mud
The swing keel has many advantages over a fixed keel in our waters. The boat sails well with the keel part way down 1/2 to 3/4 about 3' to 31/2'. Down wind is faster,& trailering is easer. It is a built in depth finder . If you hit bottom just crank it up & motor off.
The swing keel has many advantages over a fixed keel in our waters. The boat sails well with the keel part way down 1/2 to 3/4 about 3' to 31/2'. Down wind is faster,& trailering is easer. It is a built in depth finder . If you hit bottom just crank it up & motor off.
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Swing Low...
Another advantage to a swing keel is that it allows my boat, a Siren 17, to sit low enough on the trailer that I can fit it in my garage, keeping it safely off the street and out of the weather. A fixed keel would be too high to fit under the garage door.
Another advantage to a swing keel is that it allows my boat, a Siren 17, to sit low enough on the trailer that I can fit it in my garage, keeping it safely off the street and out of the weather. A fixed keel would be too high to fit under the garage door.
Swing Keel Pro's and Con's
Pro's 1. Enable boat to sit lower on trailer than fixed keel. 2. Enable boat to have reduced draft for motoring, (some for sailing too). 3. Enable easy dislodge if grounded. Con's 1. Subject to leak at pivot bolt (and lock down bolt and cable tube if equipped.) 2. Risk of damage if not locked down and boat is capsized. 3. Heavier trailering weight than water ballast/centreboard combo
Pro's 1. Enable boat to sit lower on trailer than fixed keel. 2. Enable boat to have reduced draft for motoring, (some for sailing too). 3. Enable easy dislodge if grounded. Con's 1. Subject to leak at pivot bolt (and lock down bolt and cable tube if equipped.) 2. Risk of damage if not locked down and boat is capsized. 3. Heavier trailering weight than water ballast/centreboard combo
Back to original question
First, thanks for your input John. I use my BS filter on everything I see on the net and advise all to do the same. Back on point... My first sailboat was a Venture 17 with a swing keel. A swing keel differs from a centerboard in that most if not all of the balast is contained within the fin. The main advantage is that the balast can be as low as a deep fin boat when water depth permits. In the shallows and while trailing, you can reel the thing in. Even on a small boat like the one I had, you need a cable winch (like on your trailer) and a strong arm to lift the 300 pounds. Swing keels are usually not practical on boats over 20 feet. My current boat is an ODay 20 with a centerboard and keel combination. This is one of the best all-round compromises. (Every boat is a compromise.) The stubby fixed keel holds 400lbs of lead BELOW the hull. The 4 foot centerboard can be lowered for increased lateral resistance when sailing into the wind or raised for less resistance when sailing downwind. With the board up, the draft is only 1 foot 2 inches so launching and retrieving is a breeze. Since the centerboard is not weighted, you don't need a winch to lift it. I beach my boat on our barrier islands so any keel deeper than 1' is out of the question. The centerboard kicks up and the keel is an integral part of the hull so I'll never break either. These are the only keel types I've actually owned although I have evaluated others. Final note for R.W.: My Venture's swing keel had much less wetted surface (resistance) than a comparably weighted wing. A swing keel performs much better going upwind than a wing because of the higher aspect ratio. Also, you seem to be confusing swing keels with fixed fin keels at times. TruthOrFiction on related link
First, thanks for your input John. I use my BS filter on everything I see on the net and advise all to do the same. Back on point... My first sailboat was a Venture 17 with a swing keel. A swing keel differs from a centerboard in that most if not all of the balast is contained within the fin. The main advantage is that the balast can be as low as a deep fin boat when water depth permits. In the shallows and while trailing, you can reel the thing in. Even on a small boat like the one I had, you need a cable winch (like on your trailer) and a strong arm to lift the 300 pounds. Swing keels are usually not practical on boats over 20 feet. My current boat is an ODay 20 with a centerboard and keel combination. This is one of the best all-round compromises. (Every boat is a compromise.) The stubby fixed keel holds 400lbs of lead BELOW the hull. The 4 foot centerboard can be lowered for increased lateral resistance when sailing into the wind or raised for less resistance when sailing downwind. With the board up, the draft is only 1 foot 2 inches so launching and retrieving is a breeze. Since the centerboard is not weighted, you don't need a winch to lift it. I beach my boat on our barrier islands so any keel deeper than 1' is out of the question. The centerboard kicks up and the keel is an integral part of the hull so I'll never break either. These are the only keel types I've actually owned although I have evaluated others. Final note for R.W.: My Venture's swing keel had much less wetted surface (resistance) than a comparably weighted wing. A swing keel performs much better going upwind than a wing because of the higher aspect ratio. Also, you seem to be confusing swing keels with fixed fin keels at times. TruthOrFiction on related link
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Answer for Rob
I sail a Beneteau First 235 WK. Great little boat with big boat accomodations and a good turn of speed to boot. IMO the Catalina and Hunter are too deep to realistically ramp launch/retrieve. My threashold is 3 ft. Follow the related link for some good info on this boat.
I sail a Beneteau First 235 WK. Great little boat with big boat accomodations and a good turn of speed to boot. IMO the Catalina and Hunter are too deep to realistically ramp launch/retrieve. My threashold is 3 ft. Follow the related link for some good info on this boat.
MArk,
I would ask you to reread my post and see what I posted. Your Venture 17 was a dingy, not a sailboat. Ask any swing keel owner the downfalls of a swing keel and they will say keel fairing, noisy klunking and the fear of loosing the keel ( all the ballast is in the keel) John is right about your misconceptions. MArk. If you don't know, don't give advice that could mislead someone. We don't try to mislead you. r.w.landau
I would ask you to reread my post and see what I posted. Your Venture 17 was a dingy, not a sailboat. Ask any swing keel owner the downfalls of a swing keel and they will say keel fairing, noisy klunking and the fear of loosing the keel ( all the ballast is in the keel) John is right about your misconceptions. MArk. If you don't know, don't give advice that could mislead someone. We don't try to mislead you. r.w.landau
Richard,
I don't mean to be nitney picking but here's the lion: 1. After re-reading your post I think I understand what you are saying. Basically "grounding with a SWING may happen in 6" of water" but "The WING would not ground for another 2' to 2'-6" of depth". So of course in your opinion getting wet to your chest is better than getting wet to your knees. 2. Sorry you mistook my post that John responded to as my opinion of WING keels. I was citing an article on the Rhodes 22 manufacturer's site and asking for others to opine. 3. When you say the Venture 17 is a dingy you must have misunderstood and thought I was referring to the Dagger Venture 17 canoe and not the MacGregor Venture 17. I can understand the confusion, but the Venture 17 I sailed on Lake Pontchartrain for 10 years and often spent weekends on in the Gulf of Mexico was a real sailboat. (see attached picture) Although its SWING keel had a fiberglass encased steel girder, the majority of the 300# was LEAD in the bottom end. I was never afraid of losing the SWING keel though. It had a 3/4" SS pivot bolt and a 1/2" SS lock-down bolt and a 2000# rated winch cable attached. I did "aground" with the board locked down once. The waves pushed the boat all the way up to the beach. I had someone hold the masthead down while I climbed inside and undid the lock-down bolt. The boat popped right back up and after bailing out some of the water, I sailed away without any damage to the hull or SWING keel. 4. If you really have an O'Day 25 then you already have one of the best cruising trailer sailboats ever made. The O'Day 20 I've sailed for 16 years now has the same centerboard and stubby keel design as your 25. I'm not sure why you would want to trade it for a WING keel boat unless you are going to race one class in shallow water. Although the WING keel design helps shallower draft keels point higher by increasing their aspect ratio, they only save you a few inches of draft while increasing drag and hurting downwind performance (compared to a deep FIN keel). Your 25 with the CB up going downwind would have much less wetted surface. The WING keels on small cruising boats are just like the America's Cup boat wing keels (and when I put on my Pink Floyd hat I sound just like David Gilmour). I have yet to see a definitive study showing the advantages of a WING keel on small (less than 26') shallow draft (under 3')trailer able sailboats. 5. As for the rest, I stand by my previous statements with the customary disclaimers. I have a few friends from the Pitts area so I know not to take your rantings personally, MArk P.S.: Keel technical article on related link.
I don't mean to be nitney picking but here's the lion: 1. After re-reading your post I think I understand what you are saying. Basically "grounding with a SWING may happen in 6" of water" but "The WING would not ground for another 2' to 2'-6" of depth". So of course in your opinion getting wet to your chest is better than getting wet to your knees. 2. Sorry you mistook my post that John responded to as my opinion of WING keels. I was citing an article on the Rhodes 22 manufacturer's site and asking for others to opine. 3. When you say the Venture 17 is a dingy you must have misunderstood and thought I was referring to the Dagger Venture 17 canoe and not the MacGregor Venture 17. I can understand the confusion, but the Venture 17 I sailed on Lake Pontchartrain for 10 years and often spent weekends on in the Gulf of Mexico was a real sailboat. (see attached picture) Although its SWING keel had a fiberglass encased steel girder, the majority of the 300# was LEAD in the bottom end. I was never afraid of losing the SWING keel though. It had a 3/4" SS pivot bolt and a 1/2" SS lock-down bolt and a 2000# rated winch cable attached. I did "aground" with the board locked down once. The waves pushed the boat all the way up to the beach. I had someone hold the masthead down while I climbed inside and undid the lock-down bolt. The boat popped right back up and after bailing out some of the water, I sailed away without any damage to the hull or SWING keel. 4. If you really have an O'Day 25 then you already have one of the best cruising trailer sailboats ever made. The O'Day 20 I've sailed for 16 years now has the same centerboard and stubby keel design as your 25. I'm not sure why you would want to trade it for a WING keel boat unless you are going to race one class in shallow water. Although the WING keel design helps shallower draft keels point higher by increasing their aspect ratio, they only save you a few inches of draft while increasing drag and hurting downwind performance (compared to a deep FIN keel). Your 25 with the CB up going downwind would have much less wetted surface. The WING keels on small cruising boats are just like the America's Cup boat wing keels (and when I put on my Pink Floyd hat I sound just like David Gilmour). I have yet to see a definitive study showing the advantages of a WING keel on small (less than 26') shallow draft (under 3')trailer able sailboats. 5. As for the rest, I stand by my previous statements with the customary disclaimers. I have a few friends from the Pitts area so I know not to take your rantings personally, MArk P.S.: Keel technical article on related link.
More swing in your keel
And no, Richard, we are NOT talking about canting ballast, twin foil (CBTF) with torpedo bulbs (which would be totally impractical for trailer boats). But if you want to read about them, look here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/boating/1999/9/Swing_Keel_Sailboat/ The swing keel I'm referring to here was invented by Roger MacGregor and is best exemplified on his Museum of Yacht History, 2000 Hall of Fame winning MacGregor 25. (see related link) With its extremely powerful righting arm allowing large sail area, this is the best arrangement for speed. If you are willing to give up speed for comfort (less sharp rolling) then go water ballast with a centerboard. A good compromise between the two is a lead ballasted stub keel with centerboard (like O'Day 20 I now sail).
And no, Richard, we are NOT talking about canting ballast, twin foil (CBTF) with torpedo bulbs (which would be totally impractical for trailer boats). But if you want to read about them, look here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/boating/1999/9/Swing_Keel_Sailboat/ The swing keel I'm referring to here was invented by Roger MacGregor and is best exemplified on his Museum of Yacht History, 2000 Hall of Fame winning MacGregor 25. (see related link) With its extremely powerful righting arm allowing large sail area, this is the best arrangement for speed. If you are willing to give up speed for comfort (less sharp rolling) then go water ballast with a centerboard. A good compromise between the two is a lead ballasted stub keel with centerboard (like O'Day 20 I now sail).
Tom,
Tom, I am sorry this post went where it did but I do realize that I was not specific in my response. I was refering to boats like the Catalina 22, Catalina 25. I think the wing trailer as good as the swings. I think the wings are better boats. If you are seriously looking, look at and sail an 89 or newer Catalina 25 wing keel.The owners don't part with their boats and when they do they are still getting top dollar for them. I say 89 or newer because Catalina gave the wing keels 2" of extra head room that the swing keel don't have. I do think that if Catalina made a 25 wing with the deck area of an O'Day 25 and move the main sheet forward, they would have a great boat. r.w.landau
Tom, I am sorry this post went where it did but I do realize that I was not specific in my response. I was refering to boats like the Catalina 22, Catalina 25. I think the wing trailer as good as the swings. I think the wings are better boats. If you are seriously looking, look at and sail an 89 or newer Catalina 25 wing keel.The owners don't part with their boats and when they do they are still getting top dollar for them. I say 89 or newer because Catalina gave the wing keels 2" of extra head room that the swing keel don't have. I do think that if Catalina made a 25 wing with the deck area of an O'Day 25 and move the main sheet forward, they would have a great boat. r.w.landau
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