Swagging

[Propnut30]

Ok, Im in need of replacing the lifelines on my 1985 25'. My son leaned on the port side lifeline and she broke. Turns out that they are corroded. I noticed a strand broken on my rear stay so I feel the need to replace the rigging and the lifelines at the same time. I would like do swag the cable myself, but im not sure what kind of swagging tool I should use. I dont want them comming apart and get demasted. Any suggestion on a budget fix.

Thanks and Merry Christmas

 

[Robspan]

I would go to a West Marine store. The Wests I've been to have a rigging section in the back, with someone who can do the work. If you explain what you want to do, you may be able to pick his brains and get not only the tools & materials you need but the knowledge of how to use them. If you do it yourself, be sure you're doing it right - lifelines and rigging aren't things you want to leave to chance.

Merry Christmas, everybody!

 

[Propnut30]

Thanks Robspan. I apprecate it. I'll have to make a trip, out sometime. The only WM that I know of around here is in Morhead City NC. Being that Im on a C-130 Base, I may be able to get some help from the maintnance shop. They have plenty of control cables on those birds. I really dont want to do a sloppy job and get someone hurt.

Thanks

 

[Timo42]

You could use the swageless fittings on the standing rigging and do it yourself, that's what I did, kind of pricy, but not so bad in the smaller sizes you would be using, and they are reusable. Or you can remove all the standing rigging and send it to a rigger to duplicate, I am sure some on here have experience with that. Defender has all the bits and pieces in their website, including tools. Pick up a copy of Brion Toss' Riggers Apprentice, good information whether you do it yourself or have someone else do it for you.

 

[oreana123]

If you are replacing standing rigging, I'd advocate that you change to real turnbuckles that are rolled on, a form of swaging, but does away with the ugly nicopress. Cheapest is the nico-press. You should obtain a go/no-go gauge if you are doing it yourself, especially with the swage tool that requires tightening bolts to swage the nicopress fitting.

Brian Toss's book may be overkill, if all you need is to replace lifelines and standing rigging, it is a good book but goes into a lot of periferal subjects. The nicopress technology is a product of Bell telephone laboratories, the techniq

 

[Propnut30]

Timo.

I like the idea of the swageless set up and the turnbuckles. How do the swagelles fittings work.

Oreana, what do your mean rolled on?

To be sure, I want to make certian that I am talking about the same thing. What I have been calling a swag is the insert that goes in the loop in the end of a wire, with the nicropress crimped on. I have seen some that was an eyelet or other fitting that had a tube that slipped over the end of the cable and was pressed on.

What is a go-no gauge, how is it used. Ill admit that I am only beginning, here. Had a power boat, but that is a whole new monkey to play with.

I'll keep a look out for that book. TY.

 

[Propnut30]

I checked out the defender site, I figured out most of the questions I just asked, or atleast got a better idea. They have some nice stuff there. Timo, TY for sending it. Would it hurt any to go up to 3/16" on the standing rigging, I'd like to go offshore, up-to 20 to 35 miles around Cape Lookout NC. Lots of good dive sites and fishing. Would she handle it in fair weather. I kno shes not a full on bluewater vessel.

 

[Sumner]

If you are going to make a new fore-stay I'd suggest going with the swaged, rolled on like John is talking about top part to the turnbuckle. That way if you were to ever put a CDI furler on you wouldn't have to make yet another fore-stay. We are going through this now.

If interested see the instructions on CDI's site for the F2 furler. I would do this even if you didn't think you wanted a roller furler at this point.

The go-no-go gauge is a piece of metal slotted so that once you swage the fitting you slide it over the crimp to make sure you crimped it enough.

c ya,

Sum

 

[Timo42]

IMHO I would step up from the nicopress fittings, the only advantage they have is being cheap for production work, anything else would be an improvement. You may want to replace the tangs at the upper shrouds to get the right size holes for the upper fittings(1/4")(Dwyer mast) and go to turnbuckles at the bottom, going 1 wire size up wouldn't be a bad idea, stick with 1x19 wire for standing rigging. Lifelines are a completely different system, different wire, swages and tools. I'm thinking of going with Dyneema line for my lifelines, more comfortable to lean against.

 

[Sumner]

You could use the swageless fittings on the standing rigging and do it yourself, that's what I did, kind of pricey, but not so bad in the smaller sizes you would be using, and they are reusable..........

I'm thinking of going with the 'Quick Attach'..........

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/GoodOldBoatQuickAttach.CFM

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/QuickAttachInstruction.cfm

If you do want the setup the fore-stay for a CDI they also want a Toggle at the top of the stay..........

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...&storeNum=130&subdeptNum=10902&classNum=10902

...... I forgot that.

I'm going to have to get the top of the fore-stay turnbuckle swaged on by someone, maybe Defender, and then will probably make up the rest of the ends with the 'Quick Attach',

Sum

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[Propnut30]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate this info and the links. Those suncore quick attach units look awesome. I think I might go that route. It looks great. How should I select my wire. 1X19 is a given, More or less Im looking at the type of steel. 316 stainless or is there another that is more corrosion resistant.

 

[Phil V25]

I went to the Quick Attach turnbuckle.....

and wished I hadn't. They would be great if you set up once, but not a good choice for trailer sailors. IMHO. They are well made and I have no complaint there, but they can bind up easily and then become difficult to adjust.

I'm thinking of going with the 'Quick Attach'..........

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/GoodOldBoatQuickAttach.CFM

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/QuickAttachInstruction.cfm

If you do want the setup the fore-stay for a CDI they also want a Toggle at the top of the stay..........

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...&storeNum=130&subdeptNum=10902&classNum=10902

...... I forgot that.

I'm going to have to get the top of the fore-stay turnbuckle swaged on by someone, maybe Defender, and then will probably make up the rest of the ends with the 'Quick Attach',

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[Sumner]

and wished I hadn't. They would be great if you set up once, but not a good choice for trailer sailors. IMHO. They are well made and I have no complaint there, but they can bind up easily and then become difficult to adjust.

Phil are you saying the turnbuckle doesn't turn correctly? I'm confused. I would not use the Quick Attach at the bottom of the forestay. There would be a ...............

..........swaged on turnbuckle there like above, which you have to have to work with the CDI Furler.

CDI wants a toggle at the top of the forestay and there I would use the.............

.........quick attach. It looks like once it was attached to the stay the toggle part would work like any other one.

Are you talking about using some of the quick attach hardware on the side or back stays?

Thanks, I'm about ready to get this stuff and I'm interested in you opinion. I'm going to increase the forestay from 1/8 to 5/32 and probably do the same on the back stay and leave the sidestays at 5/32's,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[Timo42]

I went with the open turnbuckles in your picture Sum, they seem a little sturdier than the closed ones, and they are locked in position with cotter pins instead of locknuts which may make them less prone to damage during setup because of the extra free play. ymmv
I used the Norseman fittings, they are more readily available and have sizes better suited to smaller boats, not at all hard to assemble. I wish I had gone with the 5/32 on the shrouds, and may still do that, I can reuse the 1/8" fittings on the sportboat I am building.
If you can find room for a Johnson lever, hooking up the forestay is much easier.

 

[Phil V25]

Used on shrouds

They seized up and were nearly impossible to loosen. One barrel developed a crack (Bosun Supply stood behind the product and replaced) and I have one that I can no longer adjust. If I was doing it over I would swag a loop with a thimble and use a standard turnbuckle and use lots of anti-seize compound on it.

Phil are you saying the turnbuckle doesn't turn correctly? I'm confused. I would not use the Quick Attach at the bottom of the forestay. There would be a ...............

..........swaged on turnbuckle there like above, which you have to have to work with the CDI Furler.

CDI wants a toggle at the top of the forestay and there I would use the.............

.........quick attach. It looks like once it was attached to the stay the toggle part would work like any other one.

Are you talking about using some of the quick attach hardware on the side or back stays?

Thanks, I'm about ready to get this stuff and I'm interested in you opinion. I'm going to increase the forestay from 1/8 to 5/32 and probably do the same on the back stay and leave the sidestays at 5/32's,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

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[Sumner]

They seized up and were nearly impossible to loosen. One barrel developed a crack (Bosun Supply stood behind the product and replaced) and I have one that I can no longer adjust. If I was doing it over I would swag a loop with a thimble and use a standard turnbuckle and use lots of anti-seize compound on it.

Thanks Phil, did the one you had problems with look like...............

.l........ this?

My Mac came with one that looked like that, but wasn't a 'Quick Attach'. We lost 1/2 of it on the way to Idaho and I had to jury rig a non-turn buckle solution until we got an open one like in the other picture from BWY, but it was shorter, so I still had to improvise for the rest of the trip.

I have to use one like this...............

................... with the swaged fitting on the top side so that it will go through the center of the CDI Furler drum. It won't be a 'Quick attach' turnbuckle.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[Propnut30]

Sounds like good stuff. Thanks. What would yall recommend for the shrouds and back stay?

 

[Sumner]

Sounds like good stuff. Thanks. What would yall recommend for the shrouds and back stay?

I'll probably keep the shrouds and back stay the way it is with new 316 stainless and stay with thimbles and swaged on sleeves. I plan on leaving the shrouds at 5/32 and take the backstay from 1/8 to 5/32.

On the back stay I don't think it takes near the stress as the other rigging and the 1/8 is probably just fine, but for simplicity in parts needed I'll probably take it to 5/32 like the other lines.

If we were racing and really wanted to tune things I would probably put turnbuckles on the shrouds and a block and tackle system on the backstay, but we aren't so I won't.

I'm interested in others thoughts also. I haven't ordered anything yet, but feel that since the boat is about 20 years old we should do this and we have to change the forestay anyway to work with the CDI.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[Phil V25]

Yes

One of the issues I found was there was no place to grab the barrel. That tiny little hole offered nothing useful. I believe the original concept of this product was for emergency repair while underway.

Thanks Phil, did the one you had problems with look like...............

.l........ this?

My Mac came with one that looked like that, but wasn't a 'Quick Attach'. We lost 1/2 of it on the way to Idaho and I had to jury rig a non-turn buckle solution until we got an open one like in the other picture from BWY, but it was shorter, so I still had to improvise for the rest of the trip.

I have to use one like this...............

................... with the swaged fitting on the top side so that it will go through the center of the CDI Furler drum. It won't be a 'Quick attach' turnbuckle.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[Sumner]

One of the issues I found was there was no place to grab the barrel. That tiny little hole offered nothing useful. I believe the original concept of this product was for emergency repair while underway.

The one that came with our Mac was like that in the middle and I used an ice pick, a small Philips screwdriver and then the tang end of a smaller file that I ground on a little. I agree, I don't like that and will stay with the open type like I have now.

I can use it, I'll just have to order the swaged end for the top end where mine now has a toggle end. The one I have is 1/4 inch and I'm thinking of going to a 5/16 not so much for strength, but to have it a little larger and maybe easier to adjust and work with. 5/16 is the largest that will work with the CDI.

Sorry it didn't work well for you, but it sounds like the 'Quick Attach' end wasn't the problem. Looks like I'll only be using one 'Quick Attach' and that will be at the top of the stay for a toggle there. Were you satisfied, felt safe, about how the 'Quick Attach' itself went on to the say and so forth?

Thanks,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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