Survey or NOT?!

justsomeguy · Feb 27, 2015

Do you plan on insuring the vessel?

Hopefully, the present owner will accommodate a thorough pre-survey survey.

kappykaplan · Feb 27, 2015

Also, if you take a loan out for the decent sailboat ($$$), the lender may want a survey.

Don S/V ILLusion · Feb 27, 2015

I think the decision (to survey or not) turns more on $$$$. If someone is comfortable spending six figures or more on a boat without a survey, they are nuts. Would you buy a house without an inspection?

Conversely, if someone is comfortable with buying known or potential project boats at a reasonably affordable cost, surveys are often not useful or worth the cost.

It is when an obvious novice boater asks a naive question that you generally see the recommendation for a survey.

Kings Gambit · Feb 27, 2015

The question or issue of the need or desirability for a professional survey depends IMO on who the survey is for-- an insurance company or the prospective buyer. For any vessel more about 15, but certainly 20, years old an insurance company often wishes to know the condition and seaworthiness of the vessel it is being asked to insure against loss or damage. Who wouldn't? The company is also interested in the vessel's equipment at the time it is purchased as a reference line for potential claims against loss or damage of equipment (such as a lost or stolen dinghy or outboard, etc.). However, I don't think the insurance company is interested in how much money you might ultimately spend repairing a severely blistered bottom! So, re: the insurance company--the survey determines whether the vessel will be insured or not, and for what premium. For the prospective buyer, it's to help determine whether or not to purchase the vessel and at what price.

I've declined to offer to purchase at least three sailboats in the past 10 yr due to the information and recommendations contained a survey. I did not pay for those surveys; someone else had; so I had them b/f commiting to an offer. If I had ordered the surveys at the time of making an offer, however, the outcome would have been the same and I would not have purchased boats, although I'd have been out the $$ for the survey, etc. Surveyors are professionals in that they are paid for their services as opposed to being amateurs, who are not paid. They see lots of boats b/c it's their job. Consequently, they know what problems to look for and how to detect them much better than any amateur could. Not to say that amateurs cannot get lucky and buy a boat with no serious problems and save the cost of that (pre-purchase) survey; however, if the boat is to be insured or financed--most likely they will have to get one nevertheless. An insurance company may insure the boat b/c it does not see it as a high risk for loss; but you may still have to repair things after the fact (purchase), etc. So, why not just get one up front and move on to the next step? To reduce the chance of getting "burned" use the insurance company's recommendation for a surveyor, rather than the broker's or the seller's.

Boating and boat ownership is a zero-sum game; it's "pay me now or pay me later." If you're going to own a seaworthy boat then you just have to face up to that fact or find another "hobby." Otherwise, you're not going to experience the enjoyment of it.

BarryL · Feb 27, 2015

Hey,

IMHO it depends on how knowledgeable you are regarding the boat 'systems'.

For my first boat, a Catalina 22, I didn't get a survey. The boat was cheap and simple and the owners were nice so I just went for it.

My second boat was a Newport 28. This was way more complicated - inboard diesel with prop shaft, wheel steering, ac / dc electrical system with battery charger, full marine plumbing system with holding tank, overboard discharge, pumpout, hot water, etc. I paid a surveyor and was glad I did because I learned a lot following him around.

I had my current boat surveyed because it was more complicated still - epoxy hull, double spreader rig, refrigeration, saildrive.

My last comment - my insurance company (Allstate) has not asked for surveyor reports and any of my boats.

Barry

Bob 04 H260 · Feb 27, 2015

We hired a surveyor before purchasing our boat. I was not impressed. He did go over everything and made a few recommendations. He did an oil analysis of the generator, aux. diesel and transmission. That was all good.

In his survey he suggested if I felt it was required I should get a rigger to inspect the rigging, a mechanic to check the diesel/trans, a sail loft to check the sails, a marine electrician to check the safety of the electrical system. A nice way to cover your ....

I felt it was a light once over of the whole boat, more concerned with a big problem. Some simple things he missed completely, our batteries were pretty much done and needed to be replaced almost right away. I think at the time I too was more concerned with big stuff like wet core, bad engine and so on and I think he did that well.

In the end there were not any big problems and I guess you always have something that was missed in the survey. Next time I would be more careful picking the surveyor. On the other hand I don't think we can expect them to be "the" expert on every system on every boat.

I think it becomes more difficult with boats as they age. It can be difficult to survey something like a holding tank that is about to leak and could be very expensive replace. For example on an Island Packet the sole needs to be removed and replaced.

Bob

Kings Gambit · Feb 27, 2015

I imagine that there are MANY Hunters bought and sold each year in the States (as well as Catalinas, Beneteaus, etc.). I would not be surprised if professional surveyors see many of those boats so might not need to "look hard" to find problems that might not be there; the "light" once over might be enough in some cases! But what if we're talking something like a Mariner 38 Pilothouse ketch built in 1980's? Now what? I think the professional surveyor would be your best friend on that deal!!

Gunni · Feb 27, 2015

I use a NAMS cert'ed surveyor, an engine mechanic, and an ABYC electrical expert as team components of the purchase decision. I may expand that to include a composite's or rigging specialist. These are my carefully selected expert assistants who can counter the romantic valuation of a seller, and the questions around who has assessment expertise. A team of qualified marine trade pros are the secret to managing all aspects of yacht purchase and ownership. I trust these guys with my life (and wealth) on a regular basis.

Big keelboats are WAY more complex, and the repairs potentially way more expensive than trailer sailers, and you often require SEM (someone else's money). Bankers and Insurers don't care if the buyer thinks he is an expert, they want an industry professional to determine the Agreed Value and ferret out the risks.

There is also a command perspective here; I use a buyer's broker and qualified marine trade pro's to keep me clear. It is far too easy to fall under the influence of a nicely curved shear, or a pretty suit of sails. A good skipper retains a great crew to help him make the right decisions.

Charlie Jones s/v Tehani · Feb 27, 2015

BarryL 1986 Oday 35 said:
My last comment - my insurance company (Allstate) has not asked for surveyor reports and any of my boats.

Barry

Just a side note. Allstate dropped my Liability insurance because my boat was "too old" For liability??

The bad part was they kinda forgot to notify me for a few years. It was bundled with my homeowners and they just "forgot"

I now have liability with Progressive

Kings Gambit · Feb 27, 2015

Gunni said:
A team of qualified marine trade pros are the secret to managing all aspects of yacht purchase and ownership. I trust these guys with my life (and wealth) on a regular basis.

Yeah, I had an out-of-the-water hull survey and had my rigger come in and survey the rig, etc., when I bought the Bavaria, only 4 yr old at the time. For the sea trial I took two highly experienced PHRF racers, plus my sail maker (who was a championship racer), and of course, the Admiral and the broker's agent who I was dealing with. So, I got lots of information about the boat, top to bottom & throughout! It's the way to go!

LloydB · Feb 27, 2015

Although the $ line is always there I think the survey is more driven by its purpose or at least it should be. I would hesitate paying for a blue water survey for a lake daysailer however I would want the surveyor to be acquainted with that specific yacht.

Tally Ho · Feb 27, 2015

I paid for a survey on my first boat (a 1996 Hunter 280), in part because it was my first boat purchase and I did not know much about any systems on a boat. My insurance (State Farm) also wanted one as it turned out. Boat cost was about $25k.

When I bought my second boat (1988 O'Day 322 ) I was able to satisfy the insurance company with a 4-year old survey that the PO had done. I was very interested in The keel joint on this boat, so had it pulled and a paid a surveyor to look at it (the boat was in another state, and I could not view it myself...otherwise I would have done it myself). This boat cost $22k.

In both cases, I did not learn anything much about "issues" with the boat, but thankfully, there weren't any major issues to find. I think today, I would be as well educated as either of the surveyors I used. But who knows. I guess the fee was worth the "peace of mind".

In the end, if the insurance company requires it, you don't have much choice, and if they don't, it depends on the value of the boat, it's condition, and your level of knowledge and confidence to inspect it yourself.

Greg

Ken Cross · Feb 27, 2015

I messed up during my 1989 Hunter 30 survey. I trusted the surveyor and should have done more myself (but then why did I pay that $700?) The first trip out I discovered the engine backup battery wouldn't turn the engine over. (Only $220 for a replacement.) The engine overheated on the first trip (required a new raw water impeller, rod out the plugged heat exchanger, clean out the exhaust elbow, and replace the defective temp gauge which was stuck at about 155 degrees. (We must have not ran the engine long enough during sea trials. because I missed it too.) The refrigerator coils are rusty, and missing some second hose clamps in key areas.

In all fairness the surveyor does not cover drive train other than a superficial look. He recommended a mechanical survey and a rigger. At some point I have to just take responsibility for looking myself. The items he did uncover I already knew about with few exceptions. Once it was all done the insurance company (Boat US) didn't want to see the survey.

Ken

Kper · Feb 27, 2015

When we purchased I couldn't find a surveyor within 6 hours of any of the boats we looked at - the upper Midwest seems to be slim on surveyors. Anyway, I educated myself as best as I could and packed what tools I thought I needed to every boat. There was always something that kept me from purchasing based on what I had learned. When I found the one we currently own I was so impressed with the visual condition that after I had purchased it and was on my way home it occurred to me that I barely walked the deck and peeked into a few areas of the boat. I had hardly performed an inspection at all! Wasn't very funny at the time but gives me a chuckle now that I know we were fortunate with a good purchase. Classic case of emotions getting involved in a purchase.

Doesn't help the thread, just sharing a funny numbskull moment.

TENACITY CS36T · Feb 27, 2015

The survey is only as good as the Surveyor, It is equally important to put some effort into selecting one.

Mark Maulden · Feb 27, 2015

Bought my boat in Seattle. I "visited" it three times before making an offer. Being a neglected 30 yr old boat, I used the results of my findings for an offer which worked. The seller accepted contingent that he not pay for any negative findings and I agreed contingent on the hull survey. We went for sea trials and the engine died in the middle of Elliot Bay. Started again just fine. And then, it overheated on the way back to the Marina. I said to fix the overheating as I had to get it to Anacortes and the seller fixed it. The rest I didn't care about as I was going to open the engine up anyway. What I had in my favor was I had owned the same make/model boat 30 yrs ago and I knew it well. The one thing I did not do was to remove a battery cap and I found out why a booster batt came with the boat...I couldn't find the water level in the batts......but I made it!