I just bought a trailer with surge brakes that aren't working,,I would like to rebuild them, However,I have been told by a couple of people that once they are in salt water I can expect them to not work again, Can any one here clue me in on this matter ? Oh yeah,,they are drum brakes,,,,
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Evaluate what you have first ...
Generally, the condition of the application servo or master cylinder is where I check first. I open the fluid resevoir and see if the system still holds fluid. If it does that usually is a good sign. If it is dry, there is a leak somewhere. That could start at the cylinder seal, or steel lines running back to the wheels. Wheel cylinders could also be leakers. But that never concerns me since I replace both wheel cylinders and all brake spring hardware with new brake kits. To do both wheels should run about fifty bucks including brake shoes. Clean up the drums, backing plates with spray Gunk and a water hose. Blow it all dry and take your time reassembling all parts leaving one wheel untouched in case you forget how it all goes back together. In which case you can run over to the other wheel and check on how it goes back together. A word of caution is ... flushing brake lines can leave your lines airbound. This means you have more air in the system than brake fluid. Most will say you need a powerbleeder to recover the system, but I use this neet little trick. It takes patience an a few hours in some cases. But all you nee to do is allow gravity to do the work. After everything is installed and ready, crack the brake lines at the wheel cylinders and allow the fluid to drip into a container. Once the fluid begins to trickle, tighten the lines closed. Then get someone to actuate the applicator (master cylinder) valve. I use a large punch or screwdriver (after removing the receiver part of the hitch) in the plunger cup. Make sure you have installed the brake drums when you do this. Then crack open the bleeder cock on the wheel cylinder just the same way you do when bleeding brakes on a car. Now, what's really not a normal brake maintenance issue is having to replace the master cylinder as well as all brake lines. Brake lines are cheap but difficult to install without a good bending tool. Here again, if replacing all the brake lines is essential, then remember the way to bleed them as I mentioned. Same goes when replacing the master cylinder. The cylinder can be bench bled by clamping it in a bench vice, filling it up with fluid and then carefully push the plunger back and forth with a screwdriver while running the output fluid back into the resevoir with a tube. I skip the tube and use my finger over the output fitting allowing air to burp while easing my finger off the fitting a bit each time I pump the plunger. Clamp your finger tightly when retracting the plunger, otherwise you will suck air past your finger back into the resevoir through the output fitting, getting you nowhere. Trailer brakes are somewhat crude but effective braking systems. Takes a little evaluation of the situation to figure out how much it will cost to bring the system back to life. Good luck friend. Tom
Generally, the condition of the application servo or master cylinder is where I check first. I open the fluid resevoir and see if the system still holds fluid. If it does that usually is a good sign. If it is dry, there is a leak somewhere. That could start at the cylinder seal, or steel lines running back to the wheels. Wheel cylinders could also be leakers. But that never concerns me since I replace both wheel cylinders and all brake spring hardware with new brake kits. To do both wheels should run about fifty bucks including brake shoes. Clean up the drums, backing plates with spray Gunk and a water hose. Blow it all dry and take your time reassembling all parts leaving one wheel untouched in case you forget how it all goes back together. In which case you can run over to the other wheel and check on how it goes back together. A word of caution is ... flushing brake lines can leave your lines airbound. This means you have more air in the system than brake fluid. Most will say you need a powerbleeder to recover the system, but I use this neet little trick. It takes patience an a few hours in some cases. But all you nee to do is allow gravity to do the work. After everything is installed and ready, crack the brake lines at the wheel cylinders and allow the fluid to drip into a container. Once the fluid begins to trickle, tighten the lines closed. Then get someone to actuate the applicator (master cylinder) valve. I use a large punch or screwdriver (after removing the receiver part of the hitch) in the plunger cup. Make sure you have installed the brake drums when you do this. Then crack open the bleeder cock on the wheel cylinder just the same way you do when bleeding brakes on a car. Now, what's really not a normal brake maintenance issue is having to replace the master cylinder as well as all brake lines. Brake lines are cheap but difficult to install without a good bending tool. Here again, if replacing all the brake lines is essential, then remember the way to bleed them as I mentioned. Same goes when replacing the master cylinder. The cylinder can be bench bled by clamping it in a bench vice, filling it up with fluid and then carefully push the plunger back and forth with a screwdriver while running the output fluid back into the resevoir with a tube. I skip the tube and use my finger over the output fitting allowing air to burp while easing my finger off the fitting a bit each time I pump the plunger. Clamp your finger tightly when retracting the plunger, otherwise you will suck air past your finger back into the resevoir through the output fitting, getting you nowhere. Trailer brakes are somewhat crude but effective braking systems. Takes a little evaluation of the situation to figure out how much it will cost to bring the system back to life. Good luck friend. Tom
Champion brake parts
Since labor is a big part of any brake job, I decided to replace the backing plate with a kit from Champion Trailers. I could have gone to disc brake but they cost much more and my drums are still good. http://www.championtrailers.com/ I bought a pair of galvanized free backup backing-plates kit with hydralic cylinders and new shoes. The reason for free backup is that normally surge brake will lock up if you back up the trailer. You would have to pull the level to disengage the master cylinder which I usually forget. These guys are very good to deal with and the price is very good. You can check their web site for a very detail instruction on how to bleed the system. I also replaced the normal brake fluid with silicon brake fluid from auto parts store as they don't absolve moisture thus avoiding rust in the system.
Since labor is a big part of any brake job, I decided to replace the backing plate with a kit from Champion Trailers. I could have gone to disc brake but they cost much more and my drums are still good. http://www.championtrailers.com/ I bought a pair of galvanized free backup backing-plates kit with hydralic cylinders and new shoes. The reason for free backup is that normally surge brake will lock up if you back up the trailer. You would have to pull the level to disengage the master cylinder which I usually forget. These guys are very good to deal with and the price is very good. You can check their web site for a very detail instruction on how to bleed the system. I also replaced the normal brake fluid with silicon brake fluid from auto parts store as they don't absolve moisture thus avoiding rust in the system.
Surge Brakes
Malcolm&Darlene. Keep in mind that this is from a relative newbie however.When i aquired my boat(trailer and all) nothing worked. Purchased a brake rebuild kit(pricie as h--- .Disc brakes,Did the rebuild myself,also new wiring and lights.Seems to work okay(although i haven't been in salt water yet.Good luck on your decision. popeye.
Malcolm&Darlene. Keep in mind that this is from a relative newbie however.When i aquired my boat(trailer and all) nothing worked. Purchased a brake rebuild kit(pricie as h--- .Disc brakes,Did the rebuild myself,also new wiring and lights.Seems to work okay(although i haven't been in salt water yet.Good luck on your decision. popeye.
ok,,,
OK,,I can rebuild these brakes,,that's not much of a problem,,the problem will be,,if I do,,will they not work after a couple of uses in salt water ? Am I waisting my time in doing the rebuild,,
OK,,I can rebuild these brakes,,that's not much of a problem,,the problem will be,,if I do,,will they not work after a couple of uses in salt water ? Am I waisting my time in doing the rebuild,,
Salt Water and Brakes
Everything will rust in salt water. Electric brakes won't even last that long. Surge brakes are your best bet in salt water, just wash everything well when you get home. Keep the section where the trailer compresses the brake cylinder out of the water, and the surge brakes will work better and last longer than any other brake system you can use in salt water. The weel cylinders are quite thick and take years to rust through. Put some grease under the dust caps at the end of the brake pistons to keep water out of there. Use hot saop and water and you will get more of the salt out when you clean them. BUT MOST OF ALL RINSE the brakes and springs after every submersion in salt water ASAP.
Everything will rust in salt water. Electric brakes won't even last that long. Surge brakes are your best bet in salt water, just wash everything well when you get home. Keep the section where the trailer compresses the brake cylinder out of the water, and the surge brakes will work better and last longer than any other brake system you can use in salt water. The weel cylinders are quite thick and take years to rust through. Put some grease under the dust caps at the end of the brake pistons to keep water out of there. Use hot saop and water and you will get more of the salt out when you clean them. BUT MOST OF ALL RINSE the brakes and springs after every submersion in salt water ASAP.
Grease *yks
If you put anything under the dust boots, make sure it's compatible with the rubber seals, anything petroleum based may cause swelling and failure. Saaw a picture somewhere of a system with sprayers mounted inside the backing plates to flush the shoes and hardware after immersion, although you could get the same effect with a hole in the backing plate in a noncritical area big enough to stick a hose end into. Just remember the brakes aren't going to work regardless until they dry out. Tim p/s Can you get electric brakes for a boat trailer? I can't use surge brakes because of my extendible tongue, and I am already setup for electric because of my horsetrailer.
If you put anything under the dust boots, make sure it's compatible with the rubber seals, anything petroleum based may cause swelling and failure. Saaw a picture somewhere of a system with sprayers mounted inside the backing plates to flush the shoes and hardware after immersion, although you could get the same effect with a hole in the backing plate in a noncritical area big enough to stick a hose end into. Just remember the brakes aren't going to work regardless until they dry out. Tim p/s Can you get electric brakes for a boat trailer? I can't use surge brakes because of my extendible tongue, and I am already setup for electric because of my horsetrailer.
Greased Brakes
Sorry, should have been more clear. That's silicone grease. Yes it works, and yes, adding a hole in a non critical area of the backing plate would help alot in getting the salt out. The brakes dry fast, so that's not a worry. They should be dry by the time you get the mast down and stored, and everything else ready to go when you pull the boat. Even your car brakes get water on them everytime you drive in a rain or through a puddle. As far as having an extenable tongue, they can be made to work fine with surge brakes. Main body is mounted to the trailer half, and the point usually going to the hitch is where you pin the extension. Actually this can be a better set up than the normal surge brake set up as by sliding the tongue out for launching you would be checking that the tongue's sliding part of the surge brake system is sliding and not bound up, the normal problem with surge brakes.
Sorry, should have been more clear. That's silicone grease. Yes it works, and yes, adding a hole in a non critical area of the backing plate would help alot in getting the salt out. The brakes dry fast, so that's not a worry. They should be dry by the time you get the mast down and stored, and everything else ready to go when you pull the boat. Even your car brakes get water on them everytime you drive in a rain or through a puddle. As far as having an extenable tongue, they can be made to work fine with surge brakes. Main body is mounted to the trailer half, and the point usually going to the hitch is where you pin the extension. Actually this can be a better set up than the normal surge brake set up as by sliding the tongue out for launching you would be checking that the tongue's sliding part of the surge brake system is sliding and not bound up, the normal problem with surge brakes.
my experience with brakes in salt water
I had a large open fish (3 axle) that had surge brakes, I rebuilt them, and they lasted almost 1 year. (they also had a hose bib routed into the backing plate for fushing). so, after 1st year, I didn't mess with them, and towed slower, and became more cautious. (brake in straight line, no tailgating, never going over 60mph, etc) --(but, at that time we were using a diesel dually to pull) fwiw, I dont have brakes on the mac trl. and dont have problem stopping (but I also have a expedtion too). imho, if you go the drum brake route, you need to rebuilt them every season. even if you got the ss disk brake (best route), there are still maintenance issues. if you fix the drum brakes, at least get a good flush kit for them... and plan of rebuilding each spring.
I had a large open fish (3 axle) that had surge brakes, I rebuilt them, and they lasted almost 1 year. (they also had a hose bib routed into the backing plate for fushing). so, after 1st year, I didn't mess with them, and towed slower, and became more cautious. (brake in straight line, no tailgating, never going over 60mph, etc) --(but, at that time we were using a diesel dually to pull) fwiw, I dont have brakes on the mac trl. and dont have problem stopping (but I also have a expedtion too). imho, if you go the drum brake route, you need to rebuilt them every season. even if you got the ss disk brake (best route), there are still maintenance issues. if you fix the drum brakes, at least get a good flush kit for them... and plan of rebuilding each spring.
no magical answers I see,,,lol
Well,, What I now have is 6000 lbs,,, So I do need to do something,,,pins and needles this last 2 days with 675 miles towing with no brakes,,,I'll figure out something,,,thnx...
Well,, What I now have is 6000 lbs,,, So I do need to do something,,,pins and needles this last 2 days with 675 miles towing with no brakes,,,I'll figure out something,,,thnx...
Well
If you listen to some people you should have no problem towing that behind a Suzuki Samurai, but as someone who has had one trailer or the other behind my truck every weekend for the last 5 years, and have seen my share of idiots doing their level best to collect a Darwin award by cutting me off while I'm hauling a 3 horse gooseneck trailer with a gcvw of over 15000 lbs. I would suggest you get the brakes fixed and have the truck checked for good measure. It's not your driving you have to worry about its that idiot who missed his exit while talking on a cellphone and cuts across 3 lanes of traffic while slamming on the brakes to catch the last bit of pavement on the offramp. Fair winds and safe roads, Tim
If you listen to some people you should have no problem towing that behind a Suzuki Samurai, but as someone who has had one trailer or the other behind my truck every weekend for the last 5 years, and have seen my share of idiots doing their level best to collect a Darwin award by cutting me off while I'm hauling a 3 horse gooseneck trailer with a gcvw of over 15000 lbs. I would suggest you get the brakes fixed and have the truck checked for good measure. It's not your driving you have to worry about its that idiot who missed his exit while talking on a cellphone and cuts across 3 lanes of traffic while slamming on the brakes to catch the last bit of pavement on the offramp. Fair winds and safe roads, Tim
"salt away" & "Flush and go"
I installed a flush kit on my trailer. It allows me to flush the motor, trailer and the brakes. http://www.flushgo.com/ http://www.saltawayproducts.com/index.htm Both bottles look like they are made by the same company, color, font etc. Perhaps flush & go is a different division that handles the sale of the flush kits.
I installed a flush kit on my trailer. It allows me to flush the motor, trailer and the brakes. http://www.flushgo.com/ http://www.saltawayproducts.com/index.htm Both bottles look like they are made by the same company, color, font etc. Perhaps flush & go is a different division that handles the sale of the flush kits.
Well put there Timo,,,
I was just cut off by a high school kid on a cell phone on a merge lane while going 65 in very heavy traffic,,I need more braking control,,,P.S...I like this rinse down with additive,,I have fresh water & pumps on this boat..Hmmmm,,,I think I can make my own brake & Ect flush,,,thank you that info
I was just cut off by a high school kid on a cell phone on a merge lane while going 65 in very heavy traffic,,I need more braking control,,,P.S...I like this rinse down with additive,,I have fresh water & pumps on this boat..Hmmmm,,,I think I can make my own brake & Ect flush,,,thank you that info
Silicone fluid
Some info for those of you that are thinking about going to silicone brake fluid. http://www.xs11.com/tips/maintenance/maint1.shtml
Some info for those of you that are thinking about going to silicone brake fluid. http://www.xs11.com/tips/maintenance/maint1.shtml
Towing
Malcolm & Darlene, 65 with a tow in a car is too fast. Slow it down to no more than 55 mph. Il., alot of places in Tn., and Ca.,won't let an 18 wheeler do over 55. They have the brakes and maintanance to handle it. Cars don't. You need at least 6 seconds between you and the car infront of you while towing. And yes there are a lot of idiots out there. U-Haul used to only let you tow their trailers at 45 mph, of corse everyone doesn't fallow this rule either. It's only been in the last few years that I think they upped it to 55. Towing a trailer takes more skill and you must be much more aware than when just driving a car. You're a sailor, slow down on the highways too. Save a little gas, enjoy the ride, smell the roses. We want you around for years to come.
Malcolm & Darlene, 65 with a tow in a car is too fast. Slow it down to no more than 55 mph. Il., alot of places in Tn., and Ca.,won't let an 18 wheeler do over 55. They have the brakes and maintanance to handle it. Cars don't. You need at least 6 seconds between you and the car infront of you while towing. And yes there are a lot of idiots out there. U-Haul used to only let you tow their trailers at 45 mph, of corse everyone doesn't fallow this rule either. It's only been in the last few years that I think they upped it to 55. Towing a trailer takes more skill and you must be much more aware than when just driving a car. You're a sailor, slow down on the highways too. Save a little gas, enjoy the ride, smell the roses. We want you around for years to come.
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