Storm Trysail?

pelagicasd · Apr 6, 2014

Hi Tom, We spent a night hove to in 50 knot winds off of a lee shore with a double reefed main and no jib. When we had our sails made I discussed getting a trysail with the sail maker and his thoughts were that on smaller boats we could probably get away with 3 reef points. When you hope to cruise there comes a time when you quit working on the boat and just go. (Cruising has been defined as working on your boat in exotic places.) I'm embarrassed to say that the sail had been made with 3 reef points but we only had it rigged for two of them. I would have used all three if I could have. We had a storm jib but I was just to scared to go on the foredeck to rig it. At times waves would come over the bow and roll over the boat and on occasion, roll over the cabin and dodger. Cockpit was half full at times. At our next opportunity we put in the lines for the third reef point and 2 extra drains for the cockpit. It was the second scariest night of my life. Some one once told me that if you wonder if you should put a reef in you should. I look back and think that I should have rigged the storm jib before it got so bad. On the positive side of things, I have a great deal of faith in the what the Vega's are capable of. Walt, Lyric From: tjhfenton@...To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 08:45:06 +0100Subject: [AlbinVega] Storm Trysail?

Has anyone used a storm trysail on the Vega? I have been studying Storm Tactics by Lin and Larry Pardy, which I found very persuasive. In brief the theory is, in very high winds with breaking waves you are safest when hove to about 50 degrees off the wind and not fore reaching. The slick caused by your downwind drift confuses the following seas, and tames them like an oil slick. They recommend heaving to under triple reefer main or a storm trysail, (not backed jib). If the wind is so strong that the boat is still making some forward progress, or too far off the wind, they recommend a para anchor. Reminded me of Matt Rutherford's voyage.
I have a storm trysail, but it is rigged for raising in a separate raised track. Has anyone fitted such a track to a Vega mast? Any thought on whether it is worth it? Could the sail be set in the main groove, if I changed the sliders? Anyone had experience of heaving to under triple reefed main, and in what strength of wind? Any other thoughts on heavy weather tactics in the Vega?
Tom Fenton, Beowulf, V2977-- Tom Fenton49 Manor Road, Wivenhoe, Colchester CO7 9LNM +44 7740 928369SV Beowulf, V2977
www.blog.mailasail.com/beowulf

dougpol1 · Apr 6, 2014

 Tom,  I would concider not allowing a Vega to drift backwards in a
blow and even moving ahead a slight amount. The rudders on these
boats have a reputation for not being the strongest rudders  as
compared to some boats.  I broke a rudder on a Crocker Ketch some 40
years ago by setting her drift astern very slowly  What I found was
she moved backward faster on wave fronts I would not let her move
backwards at all and even move forward slowly if she will.  I think
I would tend to take some advice from some of the Vega sailors in
Sweden or the Netherlands. Their sailing grounds are the North
Atlantic and most likely they have a better feel for heavy weather
sailing in a Vega than we in the states might. Wave tops in 50 knots
of breeze may be moving 30 knots and the water at the base of the
wave might be moving 6 knots so the 6knot water is acting as a break
and causes breaking waves  while the hull is in water traveling much
faster. The result is the keel and rudder are acting as a break to
slow the boat. The pressure on them could be quite large. This is my
thinking and may well be wrong, but i think it's worth concidering..
--
Doug Pollard
Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225
KK4YGO
On 04/06/2014 03:45 AM, Tom Fenton
wrote:

pelagicasd · Apr 6, 2014

I should have added that without the jib we did have some headway. If I recall correctly we were about 8 miles off shore when we hove to. The next morning we found that we were about 12 miles from the beach. Lyric has a rebuilt rudder but it was from an accident while aground not underway. Walt To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comFrom: dougpol2@...Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 12:09:17 -0400Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Storm Trysail?

Tom, I would concider not allowing a Vega to drift backwards in a
blow and even moving ahead a slight amount. The rudders on these
boats have a reputation for not being the strongest rudders as
compared to some boats. I broke a rudder on a Crocker Ketch some 40
years ago by setting her drift astern very slowly What I found was
she moved backward faster on wave fronts I would not let her move
backwards at all and even move forward slowly if she will. I think
I would tend to take some advice from some of the Vega sailors in
Sweden or the Netherlands. Their sailing grounds are the North
Atlantic and most likely they have a better feel for heavy weather
sailing in a Vega than we in the states might. Wave tops in 50 knots
of breeze may be moving 30 knots and the water at the base of the
wave might be moving 6 knots so the 6knot water is acting as a break
and causes breaking waves while the hull is in water traveling much
faster. The result is the keel and rudder are acting as a break to
slow the boat. The pressure on them could be quite large. This is my
thinking and may well be wrong, but i think it's worth concidering..
--
Doug Pollard
Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225
KK4YGO
On 04/06/2014 03:45 AM, Tom Fenton
wrote:

crazy4setters · Apr 9, 2014

Hi WaltHow can you hoove to on mainsail only ? how do you reverce it and how do you set up your main sail position. I have never heard of this way before. Please describe...Hi TomTo my experience , i had good resaults ...FIRST CASE : heaving to with the jib only (reverced) , letting the boat drift with the stern pointing to the wind and the bow at about 160 deg of the wind. This way there is minimum stress to the rudder , as it works as designed ( the water flow is normal) when the boat accelerates at the impact of a braking wave , and the boat axis sits relatively vertical to the waves , so it is comfortable to. There is no need to reef the jehnoa , as this would firstly reduce its
reverce action and secondly because of its porition relatively to the boat and the wind , the boat does not heel to much. This method is also described at "Thoughts, Tips, Techniques and Tactics for Singlehanded Sailing" book by Andrew Evans , which i once downloaded from this link ...:This book is only available as a free download fromThe Singlehanded Sailing Society at www.sfbaysss.org/tipsbook " . I imagine that this way , some of the braking waves may enter the coccpit , even if the stern tends to rise above them under the downpressing stress of the jehnoa to the front part of the boat... But this is something to be expected and mostly common also in cases when we use para ancor from the stern ,which is a commonly sudgested tactik .Further more , the boat has the freedom to surf down the slope of the wave if things get to heavy , ruther than role over..And more, your
main does not suffer from flapping , compared to the .................SECOND CASE : heaving to with both sails . To my boat , i reef the backed jib as the wind grows , to avoid to much healing. The same for the main. The two sails have to be counterballanced to make the boat point to the wind at an angle of about 50-60 deg. The very experienced former owner of "Spring Fever " , Bob Carlisle , who now sails his new boat MoonRebel , a Trident 35 , near Panama or Maiami i think , after crossing the Atlantic with his wife Lesley ( greetings to both of them ) , had explained that he could achieve that , ( with the specific sails and setup off course ) only if he would steer the rudder to the wind , as the tecniue requires , but not to the full , he would stop/tie the tiller against a spacer pillow to the windword cocpit seats. As you understand , it can be done , but you have to
practice it and experiment . I have not had the oportunity or the need so far , and if i really had the need , i am not sure i would have the nerve to experiment. I suppose you should build up experience on gradually worsening conditions , to write down the correct set up for a really big storm... ???? 6:11 ?.?. ???????, 6 ???????? 2014, ?/? walt judy brown allore bestvega@... ??????:

Hi Tom, We spent a night hove to in 50 knot winds off of a lee shore with a double reefed main and no jib. When we had our sails made I discussed getting a trysail with the sail maker and his thoughts were that on smaller boats we could probably get away with 3 reef points. When you hope to cruise there comes a time when you quit working on the boat and just go. (Cruising has been defined as working on your boat in exotic places.) I'm embarrassed to say that the sail had been made with 3 reef points but we only had it rigged for two of them. I would have used all three if I could have. We had a storm jib but I was just to scared to go on the foredeck to rig it. At times waves would come over the bow and roll over the boat and on occasion, roll over the cabin and dodger. Cockpit was half full at times. At our next opportunity we put in the lines for the third reef point and 2 extra drains for the
cockpit. It was the second scariest night of my life. Some one once told me that if you wonder if you should put a reef in you should. I look back and think that I should have rigged the storm jib before it got so bad. On the positive side of things, I have a great deal of faith in the what the Vega's are capable of. Walt, Lyric From: tjhfenton@...To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 08:45:06 +0100Subject: [AlbinVega] Storm Trysail?

Has anyone used a storm trysail on the Vega? I have been studying Storm Tactics by Lin and Larry Pardy, which I found very persuasive. In brief the theory is, in very high winds with breaking waves you are safest when hove to about 50 degrees off the wind and not fore reaching. The slick caused by your downwind drift confuses the following seas, and tames them like an oil slick. They recommend heaving to under triple reefer main or a storm trysail, (not backed jib). If the wind is so strong that the boat is still making some forward progress, or too far off the wind, they recommend a para anchor. Reminded me of Matt Rutherford's voyage.
I have a storm trysail, but it is rigged for raising in a separate raised track. Has anyone fitted such a track to a Vega mast? Any thought on whether it is worth it? Could the sail be set in the main groove, if I changed the sliders? Anyone had experience of heaving to under triple reefed main, and in what strength of wind? Any other thoughts on heavy weather tactics in the Vega?
Tom Fenton, Beowulf, V2977-- Tom Fenton49 Manor Road, Wivenhoe, Colchester CO7 9LNM +44 7740 928369SV Beowulf, V2977
www.blog.mailasail.com/beowulf

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pelagicasd · Apr 9, 2014

 To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comFrom: crazy4setters@...Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 20:31:29 +0100Subject: ????: [AlbinVega] Storm Trysail?As I recall we lashed the tiller to the same side of the boat as the boom. We had eased the mainsheet enough to keep wind in the sail but not enough to come about. The very best thing to do is practice what you might need to do before you need to do it. We would occasionally heave to when we just wanted a break from getting beat up. The boat gets very comfortable.                      Walt

 

Hi WaltHow can you hoove to on mainsail only ? how do you reverce it and how do you set up your main sail position. I have never heard of this way before. Please describe...Hi TomTo my experience , i had good resaults ...FIRST CASE : heaving to with the jib only (reverced)  , letting the boat drift with the stern pointing to the wind and the bow at about  160 deg of the wind. This way there is minimum stress to the rudder , as it works as designed ( the water flow is normal) when the boat accelerates at the impact of a braking wave , and the boat axis sits relatively vertical to the waves , so it is comfortable to. There is no need to reef the jehnoa , as this would firstly reduce its
reverce action and secondly because of its porition relatively to the boat and the wind , the boat does not heel to much.   This method is also described at "Thoughts, Tips, Techniques and Tactics for Singlehanded Sailing" book by Andrew Evans , which i once downloaded from this link ...:This book is only available as a free download fromThe Singlehanded Sailing Society at  www.sfbaysss.org/tipsbook   "  . I imagine that this way , some of the braking waves may enter the coccpit , even if the stern tends to rise above them under the downpressing  stress of the jehnoa to the front part of the boat... But this is something to be expected and mostly common also  in cases when we use para ancor from the stern ,which is  a commonly sudgested tactik .Further more , the boat has the freedom to surf down the slope of the wave if things get to heavy , ruther than role over..And more, your
main does not suffer from flapping , compared to the .................SECOND CASE : heaving to with both sails . To my boat , i reef the backed jib as the wind grows , to avoid to much healing. The same for the main. The two sails have to be counterballanced to make the boat point to the wind at an angle of about 50-60 deg. The very experienced  former owner of "Spring Fever " , Bob Carlisle , who now sails his new boat MoonRebel , a Trident 35 , near Panama or Maiami i think , after crossing the Atlantic with his wife Lesley ( greetings to both of them ) , had explained that he could achieve that , ( with the specific sails and setup off course ) only if he would steer the rudder to the wind , as the tecniue requires , but not to the full , he would stop/tie  the tiller against a spacer pillow to the windword cocpit seats. As you understand , it can be done , but you have to
practice it and experiment . I have not had the oportunity or the need so far , and if i really had the need , i am not sure i would have the nerve to experiment. I suppose you should build up experience on gradually worsening conditions , to write down the correct set up for a really big storm... ???? 6:11 ?.?. ???????, 6 ???????? 2014, ?/? walt judy brown allore bestvega@... ??????:
 

Hi Tom, We spent a night hove to in 50 knot winds off of a lee shore with a double reefed main and no jib. When we had our sails made I discussed getting a trysail with the sail maker and his thoughts were that on smaller boats we could probably get away with 3 reef points. When you hope to cruise there comes a time when you quit working on the boat and just go. (Cruising has been defined as working on your boat in exotic places.) I'm embarrassed to say that the sail had been made with 3 reef points but we only had it rigged for two of them. I would have used all three if I could have. We had a storm jib but I was just to scared to go on the foredeck to rig it. At times waves would come over the bow and roll over the boat and on occasion, roll over the cabin and dodger. Cockpit was half full at times. At our next opportunity we put in the lines for the third reef point and 2 extra drains for the
cockpit. It was the second scariest night of my life. Some one once told me that if you wonder if you should put a reef in you should. I look back and think that I should have rigged the storm jib before it got so bad. On the positive side of things, I have a great deal of faith in the what the Vega's are capable of.                                    Walt, Lyric From: tjhfenton@...To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 08:45:06 +0100Subject: [AlbinVega] Storm Trysail?

 

Has anyone used a storm trysail on the Vega? I have been studying Storm Tactics by Lin and Larry Pardy, which I found very persuasive. In brief the theory is, in very high winds with breaking waves you are safest when hove to about 50 degrees off the wind and not fore reaching. The slick caused by your downwind drift confuses the following seas, and tames them like an oil slick. They recommend heaving to under triple reefer main or a storm trysail, (not backed jib). If the wind is so strong that the boat is still making some forward progress, or too far off the wind, they recommend a para anchor. Reminded me of Matt Rutherford's voyage.
I have a storm trysail, but it is rigged for raising in a separate raised track. Has anyone fitted such a track to a Vega mast? Any thought on whether it is worth it? Could the sail be set in the main groove, if I changed the sliders? Anyone had experience of heaving to under triple reefed main, and in what strength of wind? Any other thoughts on heavy weather tactics in the Vega?
Tom Fenton, Beowulf, V2977-- Tom Fenton49 Manor Road, Wivenhoe, Colchester CO7 9LNM +44 7740 928369SV Beowulf, V2977
www.blog.mailasail.com/beowulf

Vega1447 · Apr 9, 2014

San Fran single handed sailing society link corrected for tips documenthttp://sfbaysss.org/resource/doc/SinglehandedTipsThirdEdition.pdf

tomfentonvega2977beowulf · Apr 11, 2014

Hello Athanasious, it is good to hear from you, first because you know the waters we will be sailing in and second because I remember well the day Bob Carlisle sold Spring Fever to you. Bob wrote to me "Whilst you were the first to reply to our original email, we feel
obliged to offer the first chance to the Greek guy (Athanasious) from
Corinth. When we were in Corinth a couple of months ago, we met
Athanasious and he went to a lot of time and effort in helping us sort
out a problem with gas bottles, so we feel it's only fair to repay this
kindness" I had no problem with that and I am glad Spring Fever went to a good new owner. We met Bob and Lesley in Gibraltar in 2012 after we had sailed Beowulf down from England. She was very happy with their new 35 ft boat, and he would happily have gone on round the world in a Vega.
On your comments on heaving to: thank you for passing on Bob's advice about balancing the Vega at about 50 - 60 degrees off the wind with backed jib and reefed main. But I am very surprised that he said tie the tiller to windward. In most boats the tiller would be lashed to leeward. Are you sure about this? I fully intend to try it as soon as we get some wind this year (after we return to the Med in May). What wind strength was he talking about?
The Pardy's book is mainly concerned with winds above F8, because they say the greatest dangers are not from high seas but from breaking seas. It is breaking seas that knock down or roll a boat, and it is running too fast that leads to a broach or "pitchpoling" which I imagine means going head over heels.
When the wind gets above F8 they say (and many other experienced sailors confirm) that a good boat (such as the Vega!) will heave to under triple reefed main and the helm alee. The Pardy's then go on to say, if there are breaking waves you should look carefully at your wake or slick. It is your slick that confuses the seas and saves you from breaking waves. If you are lying at 50-60 degrees off the wind the wind will be forward of the beam. Throw peices of toilet paper into the water and watch which way they go. You want them to drift off exactly to windward, indicating your direction of drift is directly downwind. If they go off abeam or aft of the beam, then you know you are forereaching. That is when they recommend the trysail or a sea anchor, rigged on a bridle between the bow and a jib winch, which you can adjust to keep the bow that 50 degrees or so off the wind, and ensure that your direction of movement is directly downwind.
Walt, you are quite right to point out the danger to any boat, not just the Vega, of the rudder being damaged by the boat being pushed backwards. The Pardy's spend a lot of time describing rudder stops to reduce the risk, but it looks to me as if they would simply shift the risk from the gudgeon and pintles to the transome, or both. But if the boat's direction of travel is directly downwind when you are lying at 50 degrees off the wind there is much less risk of a sea pushing you astern.
All of this is only theory for me. Thankfully I have never been out in anything over F8. Yet. But we have our crossing from Menorca to Sardinia in May, and other longish passages to come as we work our way east across the Med over the next few years, and one day we will be caught out. So I want to be prepared, and to practise appropriate storm tactics.
Does anyone know, what are the worst conditions in the Mediterranean between May and October? What windspeeds? Do you ever get breaking waves? Athanisious, thank you for writing to us in excellent English. ??? ??? ??? ????????? ????? ?????????. Tom
Tom Fenton49 Manor Road, Wivenhoe, Colchester CO7 9LNM +44 7740 928369SV Beowulf, V2977
www.blog.mailasail.com/beowulf

crazy4setters · Apr 11, 2014

Hello Tom. I 'm sorry , you are absolutely right about the tiller position. My sailing terminology in English is not the best. When i wrote the windword cocpit seats i ment the lee seats, thinking that "windword" would mean the direction to where the wind blows and not the direction the wind blows from. The same i try to express when i write "the ruder to the wind"What
wind strength was he talking about?.... Bob (to whom i like to refer to as "saint Bob" ) is not the kind of guy that would let him self caught out in the open seas with an F7 or more. He always plans his passages very carefully . I imagine he was talking about an average unpleasant windy situation of F6 the most. And his suggestions must have been referring to as far as an F6 to F7. Never the less anyone may face an F8 with rolling waves , so we must consider the same taktiks under the factor of the braking waves. This is why i personally would
prefer the FIRST CASE , with jehnoa only , for the reasons i mention on my previous post , about letting the boat surf down the wave if she needs to... Very interesting the points about adjusting the boats positioning to the wind .(and so the keels positioning to the drifting direction) and the drifting speed using a water ancor . Thanks for the ideas , have to try it sometime...(How on earth can you trow a paper sheet on the water with an f8 and still see where it falls???? haha)But we have our crossing from Menorca to Sardinia in May, and other
longish passages to come as we work our way east across the Med over the
next few years, and one day we will be caught out...........Well , my saint Bob had the worst experience of his sailing life, a really scary one, in this crossing (the opposite way) on his way from Malta to Gibraltar . It must have been in May 2012. Take all precoutions possible on wind predictions...Read all about it at http://www.sailblogs.com/member/springfever/Does anyone know, what are the worst conditions in the Mediterranean
between May and October? What windspeeds? Do you ever get breaking
waves?..............................In Greece in general you have to be careful of southern winds when you approach our west shores (Ionian sea). Waves build up , without any obstacle in bettween , from North Africa. The worst southern winds we have every spring. And offcourse pay attention to the famous "meltemia" , the northern summer winds (mainly August) to the Aegean sea. Meltemia last from 3 to 6 days onece every 7 to 10 days. If they get you to the open sea (north of Creete) expect braking waves. If they get you between the Aegean iselands be aware of dangerous turbulance near the shores or dangerous built ups at narrows.... Thankfully they are all predictable by Meteo services.......and I am glad Spring Fever went to a good new owner.....You could never imagine how glad I became....feel free to take a small idea...at

gladly wait for you to our clear blue waters and sunny days , musaca , ouzo ....How on earth Bob left this place... ???? 5:31 ?.?. ?????????, 11 ???????? 2014, ?/? Tom Fenton tjhfenton@... ??????:

Hello Athanasious, it is good to hear from you, first because you know the waters we will be sailing in and second because I remember well the day Bob Carlisle sold Spring Fever to you. Bob wrote to me "Whilst you were the first to reply to our original email, we feel
obliged to offer the first chance to the Greek guy (Athanasious) from
Corinth. When we were in Corinth a couple of months ago, we met
Athanasious and he went to a lot of time and effort in helping us sort
out a problem with gas bottles, so we feel it's only fair to repay this
kindness" I had no problem with that and I am glad Spring Fever went to a good new owner. We met Bob and Lesley in Gibraltar in 2012 after we had sailed Beowulf down from England. She was very happy with their new 35 ft boat, and he would happily have gone on round the world in a Vega.
On your comments on heaving to: thank you for passing on Bob's advice about balancing the Vega at about 50 - 60 degrees off the wind with backed jib and reefed main. But I am very surprised that he said tie the tiller to windward. In most boats the tiller would be lashed to leeward. Are you sure about this? I fully intend to try it as soon as we get some wind this year (after we return to the Med in May). What wind strength was he talking about?
The Pardy's book is mainly concerned with winds above F8, because they say the greatest dangers are not from high seas but from breaking seas. It is breaking seas that knock down or roll a boat, and it is running too fast that leads to a broach or "pitchpoling" which I imagine means going head over heels.
When the wind gets above F8 they say (and many other experienced sailors confirm) that a good boat (such as the Vega!) will heave to under triple reefed main and the helm alee. The Pardy's then go on to say, if there are breaking waves you should look carefully at your wake or slick. It is your slick that confuses the seas and saves you from breaking waves. If you are lying at 50-60 degrees off the wind the wind will be forward of the beam. Throw peices of toilet paper into the water and watch which way they go. You want them to drift off exactly to windward, indicating your direction of drift is directly downwind. If they go off abeam or aft of the beam, then you know you are forereaching. That is when they recommend the trysail or a sea anchor, rigged on a bridle between the bow and a jib winch, which you can adjust to keep the bow that 50 degrees or so off the wind, and ensure that your direction of movement is
directly downwind.
Walt, you are quite right to point out the danger to any boat, not just the Vega, of the rudder being damaged by the boat being pushed backwards. The Pardy's spend a lot of time describing rudder stops to reduce the risk, but it looks to me as if they would simply shift the risk from the gudgeon and pintles to the transome, or both. But if the boat's direction of travel is directly downwind when you are lying at 50 degrees off the wind there is much less risk of a sea pushing you astern.
All of this is only theory for me. Thankfully I have never been out in anything over F8. Yet. But we have our crossing from Menorca to Sardinia in May, and other longish passages to come as we work our way east across the Med over the next few years, and one day we will be caught out. So I want to be prepared, and to practise appropriate storm tactics.
Does anyone know, what are the worst conditions in the Mediterranean between May and October? What windspeeds? Do you ever get breaking waves? Athanisious, thank you for writing to us in excellent English. ??? ??? ??? ????????? ????? ?????????. Tom
Tom Fenton49 Manor Road, Wivenhoe, Colchester CO7 9LNM +44 7740 928369SV Beowulf, V2977
www.blog.mailasail.com/beowulf