Hello Doyle Sail Folks! I have been advised to get a storm jib for sailing along the left coast between San Francisco and Monterey. I have been told that if the winds get to 25+ and you are between ports, you will need a storm jib to give you just enough sail to balance the boat. I'm not sure if I should be double-reefed at this point or not, that part was not clear. I have a 110% jib on my Hunter 2001 340 now, and I suggested just unfurling it a little bit, but was told it is not a good way to go because you could have an accidental total unfurling, and even if it is out just a little bit it is not designed to work that way in those conditions. I'm trying to picture changing the jib in 10 foot swell under those conditions... but ok I'm open to ideas since I'm fairly new at all this, it will probably be a lot of fun! Can you explain the benifits of a Storm Jib? Are they one size fits all? If not, what size would I need for my 340? How much are they? I have seen some that snap on around the furled jib, do you make those? If not why? Thanks for the info, Michael
- Status
Gale sail...
Check out the gale sail, it zips over the furled headsail. I think it's distributed by ATN. Sorry Doyle... I'm sure you guys have something similar.
Check out the gale sail, it zips over the furled headsail. I think it's distributed by ATN. Sorry Doyle... I'm sure you guys have something similar.
Hi Michael, thanks for joining the Doyle Sails forum. As I am in Florida, may I suggest you contact Bill Colombo at our Doyle Loft in Alameda. Bill is familiar with the sailing conditions out there and will be able to offer you sage advice on your options. As long as your Furler is well maintained and in good working order there is no reason you cannot reef the Genoa when conditions warrant. The Gale Sail is an option over using your Genoa in heavy conditions, especially if you are doing a long passage. We sell the Gale Sail made by ATN, (no use reinventing the wheel) You do need to go forward and attach the Gale Sail, and you will need a spare halyard to hoist it. But, my first advice stands firm, contact Bill and he can discuss with you your options, sailing conditions etc... Good Sailing
Regarding the Gale Sail
Tim 1. Does the sleeve that fits over the furled jib: a. Cause chafe on the jib? b. Seriously disturb the luff airflow? 2. Also, would you comment on the sheeting: a. Should separate jib sheets be used? b. If so, do you recommend using the inner or outer track for the fairleads? --Ron
Tim 1. Does the sleeve that fits over the furled jib: a. Cause chafe on the jib? b. Seriously disturb the luff airflow? 2. Also, would you comment on the sheeting: a. Should separate jib sheets be used? b. If so, do you recommend using the inner or outer track for the fairleads? --Ron
Gale Sail
Hi Ron, The Gale sail sleeve distributes the luff load along the sail so there is not any real chafe problem. The Flow of air is not really any more disturbed than with a reefed Jib. Keep in mind that in situations that warrant the use of the Gale Sail, you will not be trying to point upwind. You will be using the sail to keep the boat moving for steerage. The Clew is relatively high so sheeting will depend on whats available on your boat. With the Gale Sail, I would recommend keeping a set of sheets with the sail so you have them when you need them.
Hi Ron, The Gale sail sleeve distributes the luff load along the sail so there is not any real chafe problem. The Flow of air is not really any more disturbed than with a reefed Jib. Keep in mind that in situations that warrant the use of the Gale Sail, you will not be trying to point upwind. You will be using the sail to keep the boat moving for steerage. The Clew is relatively high so sheeting will depend on whats available on your boat. With the Gale Sail, I would recommend keeping a set of sheets with the sail so you have them when you need them.
Gale Sail vs. Partially Furled Working Jib
We have a working jib which we use in place of the genoa when conditions warrant. When it gets really blowy, the working jib can be furled from the relative safety of the cockpit. We've been out in unexpected 35 knot winds with just the partially furled working jib up and it worked great. I'm struggling to find a reason for the expense of a gale sail which would then require foredeck work in difficult conditions. Am I missing something? Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
We have a working jib which we use in place of the genoa when conditions warrant. When it gets really blowy, the working jib can be furled from the relative safety of the cockpit. We've been out in unexpected 35 knot winds with just the partially furled working jib up and it worked great. I'm struggling to find a reason for the expense of a gale sail which would then require foredeck work in difficult conditions. Am I missing something? Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
Correct me if I'm wrong, but on a H340 shouldn't
the main be reefed first ?! I thought that on most Hunters of this type the 'bigger' driving sail was the Mainsail. I would first reef the mainsail and then see how the helm feels. A 110 % genny is not huge and just a few turns would gets you down to about an 85% jib pretty quick. I would strongly recommend a foam luff pad which can help keep the genny flat and not "puckered". What the storm jib would buy you (and in your case I think a working jib might do) is that its much smaller with heavy material & flatter cut . Therefore it won't gather wind, bag and heel the boat as much in heavy winds and sometimes more importantly allow you to sail into the wind a bit higher (off a lee shore?) than a poorly furled genny. If I was travelling "across" an ocean, I would have one, coastal wise, I'd consider it an option. And really, if its that nasty out, do you really want to be on the foredeck messing with getting a genny down and getting the jib up. Try it sometime, its not an easy task. Unless of course you were already prudent enough (re:smart enough) and got it up before you left port. But we all know typically that doesn't happen and the 'nasty' weather kind of sneaks up on you.
the main be reefed first ?! I thought that on most Hunters of this type the 'bigger' driving sail was the Mainsail. I would first reef the mainsail and then see how the helm feels. A 110 % genny is not huge and just a few turns would gets you down to about an 85% jib pretty quick. I would strongly recommend a foam luff pad which can help keep the genny flat and not "puckered". What the storm jib would buy you (and in your case I think a working jib might do) is that its much smaller with heavy material & flatter cut . Therefore it won't gather wind, bag and heel the boat as much in heavy winds and sometimes more importantly allow you to sail into the wind a bit higher (off a lee shore?) than a poorly furled genny. If I was travelling "across" an ocean, I would have one, coastal wise, I'd consider it an option. And really, if its that nasty out, do you really want to be on the foredeck messing with getting a genny down and getting the jib up. Try it sometime, its not an easy task. Unless of course you were already prudent enough (re:smart enough) and got it up before you left port. But we all know typically that doesn't happen and the 'nasty' weather kind of sneaks up on you.
Gale Sail vs Furled Jib
Personally, I've had my C320 out in the Gulf of Maine in ~30+ knot winds & choppy 5-6 ft waves using the 135 Gennie furled to about 100% & a single reefed main. Handled fine. However, I've harbored a concern that sustained operation under those conditions or worse might undo my roller furled jib at some inopportune time. And, no -- I didn't want to be out of the cockpit, much less trying to get a storm sail up at the pointy end. Even tethered to a jackline. I was interested in hearing reasons why anyone chose to go the Gale Sail route. The item has been on the market for quite some time, yet I've never seen one in actual use (or know anyone who had bought one). --Ron
Personally, I've had my C320 out in the Gulf of Maine in ~30+ knot winds & choppy 5-6 ft waves using the 135 Gennie furled to about 100% & a single reefed main. Handled fine. However, I've harbored a concern that sustained operation under those conditions or worse might undo my roller furled jib at some inopportune time. And, no -- I didn't want to be out of the cockpit, much less trying to get a storm sail up at the pointy end. Even tethered to a jackline. I was interested in hearing reasons why anyone chose to go the Gale Sail route. The item has been on the market for quite some time, yet I've never seen one in actual use (or know anyone who had bought one). --Ron
Gale sail for the distance
Hello all, The Gale Sail can be considered should you be planning a long voyage offshore where it can blow 30+ for days. In these conditions, the Gale Sail or a Storm Jib can save your RF Genoa from undue abuse from use as a storm jib. But, For coastal cruising where you can find safe harbor usually within a day, your normal sail plan should work just fine. Remember, attention to systems/rigging maintenance and yearly inspections of your sails are well worth it no matter where you sail. When it's time to replace your RF Genoa, you may want to consider UV Stabilized Dacron as a sun cover instead of Sunbrella. UV Dacron is true Sailcloth, so inturn it provides additional strength to the leech and foot, not provided by Sunbrella. In addition, it is lighter than Sunbrella so you benefit in lighter wind as well.
Hello all, The Gale Sail can be considered should you be planning a long voyage offshore where it can blow 30+ for days. In these conditions, the Gale Sail or a Storm Jib can save your RF Genoa from undue abuse from use as a storm jib. But, For coastal cruising where you can find safe harbor usually within a day, your normal sail plan should work just fine. Remember, attention to systems/rigging maintenance and yearly inspections of your sails are well worth it no matter where you sail. When it's time to replace your RF Genoa, you may want to consider UV Stabilized Dacron as a sun cover instead of Sunbrella. UV Dacron is true Sailcloth, so inturn it provides additional strength to the leech and foot, not provided by Sunbrella. In addition, it is lighter than Sunbrella so you benefit in lighter wind as well.
Reefing
Replying to the question about reefing... Here's about what I've been going by: Under 15 knots-full main and full jib or 2/3rds jib 15-19 knots- 1st reef in the main/ 50% to 2/3rds jib 20-24 knots- 2nd reef in main/ 30% to 50% jib 25-29 knots - 2nd reef in main or no main/50% or no jib 30 + knots- TIME TO DOUSE ALL SAIL AND HEAD FOR THE DOCKS! What do you think?
Replying to the question about reefing... Here's about what I've been going by: Under 15 knots-full main and full jib or 2/3rds jib 15-19 knots- 1st reef in the main/ 50% to 2/3rds jib 20-24 knots- 2nd reef in main/ 30% to 50% jib 25-29 knots - 2nd reef in main or no main/50% or no jib 30 + knots- TIME TO DOUSE ALL SAIL AND HEAD FOR THE DOCKS! What do you think?
Michael, sounds OK except for dousing all sail
Many times I have seen sailors make the same mistake we used to make during the first years, namely dousing all sail and heading to port on the engine alone. Maybe this is not unreasonable in a somewhat protected area like San Francisco Bay. However, in unprotected waters and heavy seas the heightened risk of having the engine conk out for any number of reasons (crud, filters, connections, vent flooding, overheating, etc.) just before you are ready to enter port is a powerful reason to save the engine for when you are in protected waters again. A second reason is that your already stressed-out crew members may be instantly reduced to useless weight on the lee rail if you remove the last little bit of stabilization from the vessel's wild movements; leaving you to fend for yourself at a time that a little help can make all the difference. So, this is where a third reef point in the main or (believe it or not) a storm jib or Galesail may actually fit the bill quite nicely. Also, it is perhaps worth pointing out that when it is blowing too hard to stay out there it may certainly be blowing too hard to enter an unknown port, especially if on a lee shore and/or when having to cross a bar..... (as many Westcoast sailors know all too well). Fair winds Flying Dutchman
Many times I have seen sailors make the same mistake we used to make during the first years, namely dousing all sail and heading to port on the engine alone. Maybe this is not unreasonable in a somewhat protected area like San Francisco Bay. However, in unprotected waters and heavy seas the heightened risk of having the engine conk out for any number of reasons (crud, filters, connections, vent flooding, overheating, etc.) just before you are ready to enter port is a powerful reason to save the engine for when you are in protected waters again. A second reason is that your already stressed-out crew members may be instantly reduced to useless weight on the lee rail if you remove the last little bit of stabilization from the vessel's wild movements; leaving you to fend for yourself at a time that a little help can make all the difference. So, this is where a third reef point in the main or (believe it or not) a storm jib or Galesail may actually fit the bill quite nicely. Also, it is perhaps worth pointing out that when it is blowing too hard to stay out there it may certainly be blowing too hard to enter an unknown port, especially if on a lee shore and/or when having to cross a bar..... (as many Westcoast sailors know all too well). Fair winds Flying Dutchman
Reefing a Jib
We have become quite proficient at reefing the main (fully battened) and a third reef is on my list next time I am at the sailmakers. While I have often thought about it, I have never reefed our 110 jib for fear of the strees that it would put on the furling gear. Is the process similar to the main, i.e., head up while easing the sheet and use a winch to crank in the furling line? Is the furling gear designed for reefing? Thanks, Peter Milne S/V Blue Heron
We have become quite proficient at reefing the main (fully battened) and a third reef is on my list next time I am at the sailmakers. While I have often thought about it, I have never reefed our 110 jib for fear of the strees that it would put on the furling gear. Is the process similar to the main, i.e., head up while easing the sheet and use a winch to crank in the furling line? Is the furling gear designed for reefing? Thanks, Peter Milne S/V Blue Heron
Michael, sounds ok, but it really depends on boat
I have a C36 with wing keel and Standard mast (not tall). And I find the boat is fine with a 135% genny and full main until 22knots of wind . Very rarely do I ever reef in the genny unless the winds are above 22knots and I'm hard on the wind. As strange as it sounds, my experience is in these conditions, that the boat responds to a reef or two in the main first, then followed by a couple of turns on the genny (at least with my 135%). Maybe its because I have a heavy boat and a Standard rig, but it works pretty well for me and other C36's have had the same experience.
I have a C36 with wing keel and Standard mast (not tall). And I find the boat is fine with a 135% genny and full main until 22knots of wind . Very rarely do I ever reef in the genny unless the winds are above 22knots and I'm hard on the wind. As strange as it sounds, my experience is in these conditions, that the boat responds to a reef or two in the main first, then followed by a couple of turns on the genny (at least with my 135%). Maybe its because I have a heavy boat and a Standard rig, but it works pretty well for me and other C36's have had the same experience.
Good Advice Hank!
Good advice Henk! These are lessons I'm learning the hard way. Your right, I'm learning that sailing the bay is a different experience than sailing outside the gate! Although I've taken a bunch of classes, there is no subsitute for actually getting out there, making mistakes, and coming back to these newsgroups for sage advice on how to do better next time... assuming I keep making it back that is! ;O) Thanks you all for your contributions! Mac
Good advice Henk! These are lessons I'm learning the hard way. Your right, I'm learning that sailing the bay is a different experience than sailing outside the gate! Although I've taken a bunch of classes, there is no subsitute for actually getting out there, making mistakes, and coming back to these newsgroups for sage advice on how to do better next time... assuming I keep making it back that is! ;O) Thanks you all for your contributions! Mac
Not really needed unless you plan on...
...crossing an ocean. The main reason for a third reef in the mainsail or a storm trisail or a storm jib is to shorten your sail area in a storm to maintain steerage and to keep the boat balanced while maintaining a reasonable amount of forward speed in a storm. A Bermuda rigged sloop must be sailed with a mainsail and headsail to balance the rig. You need to reduce the area of the sails fore and aft in roughly equal ratios to maintain a reasonable amount of helm control on a Bermuda rigged sloop. For a Bermuda rigged sloop this usually means a third reef in the mainsail will be balanced with a storm jib. Sailing with the jib partly furled or with a storm jib alone without any mainsail will give the sailboat a heavy lee helm that will make steering difficult and reduce your speed and expose your sailboat to broaching in a storm if you don't have enough speed for helm control. The second reason to sail with a mainsail and a jib is to provide a shock absorbing affect of the sails on the rigging in heavy seas. As the sailboat pounds through the waves, or falls off the face of a wave, the jarring to the rigging can cause the back stays, fore stays, shrouds and turnbuckles to fail as the mast is being whipped around. If the mainsail has been furled completely and you are running "Bare Poles", the mast will be whipping around if you don't have any sails aloft. To maintain some wind force against the mast and to keep the stays taut as the sailboat crashes and rolls in a heavy seas, you should keep a small amount of sail on both the mast and the jib. Either a third reefed mainsail or storm trisail and a storm jib will help absorb some of the shock of the pounding seas and jarring of the sailboat from being amplified in your mast. On another posting on this web site, "Strange But True", an Island Packet 350 broken its mast in three places when she was hit astern by a powerboat, the collision caused the mast to whip. On offshore sailboats where you might have to sail in a storm because you can't make port, the storm jib is rigged on an inner forestay in back of the roller furling headsail. The boom is also modified so that the storm trisail can be rigged on its own mast slide and will not interfere with the mainsail so that the mainsail can be furled and will not have to be removed. The storm trisail does not sheet to the main boom, but will lead through snatch blocks rigged aft. Most recreational sailboats will never need to use one if you check the weather and stay within reasonable range of a safe harbor. Fair Winds. Clyde
...crossing an ocean. The main reason for a third reef in the mainsail or a storm trisail or a storm jib is to shorten your sail area in a storm to maintain steerage and to keep the boat balanced while maintaining a reasonable amount of forward speed in a storm. A Bermuda rigged sloop must be sailed with a mainsail and headsail to balance the rig. You need to reduce the area of the sails fore and aft in roughly equal ratios to maintain a reasonable amount of helm control on a Bermuda rigged sloop. For a Bermuda rigged sloop this usually means a third reef in the mainsail will be balanced with a storm jib. Sailing with the jib partly furled or with a storm jib alone without any mainsail will give the sailboat a heavy lee helm that will make steering difficult and reduce your speed and expose your sailboat to broaching in a storm if you don't have enough speed for helm control. The second reason to sail with a mainsail and a jib is to provide a shock absorbing affect of the sails on the rigging in heavy seas. As the sailboat pounds through the waves, or falls off the face of a wave, the jarring to the rigging can cause the back stays, fore stays, shrouds and turnbuckles to fail as the mast is being whipped around. If the mainsail has been furled completely and you are running "Bare Poles", the mast will be whipping around if you don't have any sails aloft. To maintain some wind force against the mast and to keep the stays taut as the sailboat crashes and rolls in a heavy seas, you should keep a small amount of sail on both the mast and the jib. Either a third reefed mainsail or storm trisail and a storm jib will help absorb some of the shock of the pounding seas and jarring of the sailboat from being amplified in your mast. On another posting on this web site, "Strange But True", an Island Packet 350 broken its mast in three places when she was hit astern by a powerboat, the collision caused the mast to whip. On offshore sailboats where you might have to sail in a storm because you can't make port, the storm jib is rigged on an inner forestay in back of the roller furling headsail. The boom is also modified so that the storm trisail can be rigged on its own mast slide and will not interfere with the mainsail so that the mainsail can be furled and will not have to be removed. The storm trisail does not sheet to the main boom, but will lead through snatch blocks rigged aft. Most recreational sailboats will never need to use one if you check the weather and stay within reasonable range of a safe harbor. Fair Winds. Clyde
Lee Helm and Jib Alone
This is a really good discussion. I understand the need for a fore and aft balancing of sails in high winds with a storm jib and trysail. However, one thing I've experienced on Shibumi is that her weather helm is MUCH more senstive to degree of heel than to a fore and aft balancing of sail. Consequently if we get any heel with just a reefed jib up, it will more than compensate for the effect of no main. Anybody else find this? Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
This is a really good discussion. I understand the need for a fore and aft balancing of sails in high winds with a storm jib and trysail. However, one thing I've experienced on Shibumi is that her weather helm is MUCH more senstive to degree of heel than to a fore and aft balancing of sail. Consequently if we get any heel with just a reefed jib up, it will more than compensate for the effect of no main. Anybody else find this? Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
Peter -- RF Jib
I've found that heading into the wind makes for terrible jib reefing -- to much flogging. The RF jib needs some tension in order to wind tightly & prevent the furling line from self-wrapping over itself on the drum. Keep the jib pulling in the wind on a port tack, but back off the sheet to de-power it a bit. I keep a turn or two of the leeward sheet on the winch and pay it out gradually as I pull in on the furling line using the windward winch. I find that most times I can do that solo. Watch for the furling line binding up -- don't just crank that winch if you get a lot of tension -- something gone wrong is indicated! --Ron
I've found that heading into the wind makes for terrible jib reefing -- to much flogging. The RF jib needs some tension in order to wind tightly & prevent the furling line from self-wrapping over itself on the drum. Keep the jib pulling in the wind on a port tack, but back off the sheet to de-power it a bit. I keep a turn or two of the leeward sheet on the winch and pay it out gradually as I pull in on the furling line using the windward winch. I find that most times I can do that solo. Watch for the furling line binding up -- don't just crank that winch if you get a lot of tension -- something gone wrong is indicated! --Ron
100 Sq. Ft. of Sail on H34
A storm sail was on the boat when we bought it last year. The sail appears new and unused and has the following dimensions. Foot=11'2" Luft=14' Leach=18' There is 25' of wire on the head and 2'6" of wire on the tack. The sail does not have hanks and it will not fit in the furler grove. So it looks like it will be a straight hoist on the spinnaker halyard. It is about 100 Sq Ft as compared to the 130% jib which has about 400 sq ft. Hope that helps with your comparisons. John
A storm sail was on the boat when we bought it last year. The sail appears new and unused and has the following dimensions. Foot=11'2" Luft=14' Leach=18' There is 25' of wire on the head and 2'6" of wire on the tack. The sail does not have hanks and it will not fit in the furler grove. So it looks like it will be a straight hoist on the spinnaker halyard. It is about 100 Sq Ft as compared to the 130% jib which has about 400 sq ft. Hope that helps with your comparisons. John
Storm jib and 3rd reef
Regulations here in France may be more strict than in the States (?), as ALL inhabitable sailing vessels (category 5+) MUST have a heavy-fabric storm jib on board. Period. Now its a matter of getting the darned thing up! Sailing in "sunny Mediterranean" on my Hunter 326 can be a sweet experience, aside from the fact that winds here can go from F3-5 to F7+ in a couple of hours. For this reason, I installed an inner forestay, from the top spreaders to a reinforcement aft of the anchor-well and use the spinnaker halyard to hoist the storm jib. Partially furling the genoa on a H326 only causes the reduced genoa to fly higher on the forestay which in turn causes the boat to heel excessively. And as you can't tighten a partially furled sail sufficently on a rollerfuller , the belly of the sail also becomes too powerful. (not to mention the fabric of the 110% wasn't designed for this) Also the hoisted storm jib is much lower on the boat, and more effective with less heel. Modifications to the battened Mainsail: replaced the stainless reef eyes with pulleys sewn into the sail (much easier to hoist/lower)and... installed a 3rd reef! I agree with Hank. I NEVER motor without at least a bit of sail out, if only to add to my H326's stability. You will also get a couple of knots more speed, due to the apparent wind created by the motored boat, and can in turn reduce the engine speed. Bon Vent Jef & *Pixie* ps: Elvstom sails (a major sailmaker in Europe) gave up on the Gail-Sail concept... use it once, and it's a major bummer to fold away correctly for the next use.
Regulations here in France may be more strict than in the States (?), as ALL inhabitable sailing vessels (category 5+) MUST have a heavy-fabric storm jib on board. Period. Now its a matter of getting the darned thing up! Sailing in "sunny Mediterranean" on my Hunter 326 can be a sweet experience, aside from the fact that winds here can go from F3-5 to F7+ in a couple of hours. For this reason, I installed an inner forestay, from the top spreaders to a reinforcement aft of the anchor-well and use the spinnaker halyard to hoist the storm jib. Partially furling the genoa on a H326 only causes the reduced genoa to fly higher on the forestay which in turn causes the boat to heel excessively. And as you can't tighten a partially furled sail sufficently on a rollerfuller , the belly of the sail also becomes too powerful. (not to mention the fabric of the 110% wasn't designed for this) Also the hoisted storm jib is much lower on the boat, and more effective with less heel. Modifications to the battened Mainsail: replaced the stainless reef eyes with pulleys sewn into the sail (much easier to hoist/lower)and... installed a 3rd reef! I agree with Hank. I NEVER motor without at least a bit of sail out, if only to add to my H326's stability. You will also get a couple of knots more speed, due to the apparent wind created by the motored boat, and can in turn reduce the engine speed. Bon Vent Jef & *Pixie* ps: Elvstom sails (a major sailmaker in Europe) gave up on the Gail-Sail concept... use it once, and it's a major bummer to fold away correctly for the next use.
- Status