STORM JIB
- Thread starter Cptstarz
- Start date
ATN makes the "Gale Sail" and suggests that boats under 27 feet long can use their 30 square foot sail. For a 22 foot boat you might want to use a slightly smaller sail.
The Gale Sail | Easy Handling Storm Jib | ATN Sailing Equipment
Patented sail is the safest and easiest way to hoist a storm jib in storm conditions. Hoist storm jib over roller furled sail in safety.
www.atninc.com
I get caught in a gale offshore in a 22' I need to be shot, but then there are those times when mother sea sneaks up on you and rages. Other than the MFG ATN with their so named sail, what ounce Dacron with hanks would you use Kings Gambit? I am guessing 25ish sq feet.
I don’t know, I don’t own one. Check out the gale sails that the The Sail Warehouse will make for you. They mention the luff hardware. But it does not have to be a gale sail; they make regular storm jibs as well. Much less cost.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,161
It is not the boat, but the skipper and crew that brings a boat safely home to port...
I read that once.
$800 seems like a lot of money for a sail that will spend much of it's time in storage. It causes me to wonder if there are alternate ideas that will serve your needs. Streaming Warps or other heave weather techniques.
It is a challenge for East coast sailers and weather can form quickly and with the right conditions stir the water into a maelstrom. I will be interested in your ideas on this subject for small boats.
I “worried” about not having a storm jib for quite a while, but have basically gotten over it. Unless I decide to sail to Hawaii, I doubt I’ll ever get one. First, I have roller furling of the headsail where I can put out the “handkerchief.” Alternatively, as I have no inner stay, it would require the gale sail for practicality. I don’t like ‘em b/c they must be deployed on the head stay, and I’m not convinced that having that thing out there would be any better than the handkerchief. Finally, since I sail exclusively within 60 n.mi. of shore, usually in the relatively sheltered inner waters of the southern California bight and rarely overnight, I don’t see much application. Not the purist I once might have been, if I need to get home against a gale-force offshore (Santa Ana) wind, I’d likely furl the jib, reef the main as appropriate and motor sail, rather than beat, against it. It is what it is.
Response to sudden, unexpected, bad weather as with a powerful T-storm, takes many forms, depending on where you are. Trying to sail (i.e., make your course) in winds that could (and do) gust to 5O kt in a 22 ft boat with a gale sail, or even regular storm jib, would probably not be my first choice. If there is shelter near (not likely if “offshore”), I’d probably take it. I’m not saying try to outrun the storm over some distance, but if you can duck behind something quickly and anchor, then that’s one possibility. Less desirable, if even possible, would be to attempt anchor in the open until it passes, but it is still an option that folks might use.
The other idea is to reduce sail, even to bare poles if necessary, and run with it if there is room a lee. Folks do that frequently offshore. But, Iif you cannot anchor safely where you are, cannot run with it, and cannot safely sail to it, another idea is to face it under auxiliary power until it passes. Hope the engine starts.
Sailing around FL for 11 yr convinced me of the benefits of having an inboard diesel if you need auxiliary power. OBs are not reliable enough IMHO. You must maintain them with much care if you wish to depend on one to get you out of a jam someday.
Many other storm tactics to be employed “offshore” have been published, etc.
Response to sudden, unexpected, bad weather as with a powerful T-storm, takes many forms, depending on where you are. Trying to sail (i.e., make your course) in winds that could (and do) gust to 5O kt in a 22 ft boat with a gale sail, or even regular storm jib, would probably not be my first choice. If there is shelter near (not likely if “offshore”), I’d probably take it. I’m not saying try to outrun the storm over some distance, but if you can duck behind something quickly and anchor, then that’s one possibility. Less desirable, if even possible, would be to attempt anchor in the open until it passes, but it is still an option that folks might use.
The other idea is to reduce sail, even to bare poles if necessary, and run with it if there is room a lee. Folks do that frequently offshore. But, Iif you cannot anchor safely where you are, cannot run with it, and cannot safely sail to it, another idea is to face it under auxiliary power until it passes. Hope the engine starts.
Sailing around FL for 11 yr convinced me of the benefits of having an inboard diesel if you need auxiliary power. OBs are not reliable enough IMHO. You must maintain them with much care if you wish to depend on one to get you out of a jam someday.Many other storm tactics to be employed “offshore” have been published, etc.
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I don’t know much about this but I assume the reason for the storm jib is to maintain some steering control.
I wonder if your boat would actually “sail” in the desired direction with only a “small” jib deployed? If you have a roller furler you could experiment by not having the main up and just a small portion of headsail out. It might help determine a sail area / wind strength estimate and confirm what points of sail could be accomplished. IE how much sail would you need to drive through a tack etc.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,161
Sailing under storm conditions is entirely different from sailing in conditions that are so to say Normal.
It is more like trying to swim in a rip tide. You want to swim to the beach but the rip tide is pushing you out to sea. So you swim at 90 degrees to the rip. Yes it will carry you out to sea but you also will be making an exit from the current. You conserve energy and once free from the current you head to shore.
It is the same philosophy I employee in storm conditions. The forces on a handkerchief of jib sail, will not give me much up wind progress. At best I might get 90 degrees to true wind. If that puts me a beam to the waves that is not a very safe set up. Having the sail ahead of the mast means the sail is trying to push the bow down (to the lee). Again a bad force. So we move the "Storm sail" to astern of the mast to get the energy (force) more centered. Even there the forces are against ant forward into the wind progress. Perhaps they are better for a 90 degree to the wind effort. The goal is you have not put yourself in a position to be blown down wind against a lee shore.
Having fuel, a working auxiliary, the sense to employ the proper tools to address the situation and considering all of your options to avoid getting "between a rock and a hard place" are critical to survival.
I have the auxiliary engine. I have warps to run down wind bare poles. I understand my boats condition. I can modify a small jib to rig a small sail between the mast and the back stay. I am willing to deploy rode and chain on the bow or the stern as needed to address the conditions. I am ready to call for help. I am ready to stay in harbor when conditions suggest I would be healthier. I watch my weather. I pray I have my senses about me to avoid trouble and to deal with the conditions presented.
It is more like trying to swim in a rip tide. You want to swim to the beach but the rip tide is pushing you out to sea. So you swim at 90 degrees to the rip. Yes it will carry you out to sea but you also will be making an exit from the current. You conserve energy and once free from the current you head to shore.
It is the same philosophy I employee in storm conditions. The forces on a handkerchief of jib sail, will not give me much up wind progress. At best I might get 90 degrees to true wind. If that puts me a beam to the waves that is not a very safe set up. Having the sail ahead of the mast means the sail is trying to push the bow down (to the lee). Again a bad force. So we move the "Storm sail" to astern of the mast to get the energy (force) more centered. Even there the forces are against ant forward into the wind progress. Perhaps they are better for a 90 degree to the wind effort. The goal is you have not put yourself in a position to be blown down wind against a lee shore.
Having fuel, a working auxiliary, the sense to employ the proper tools to address the situation and considering all of your options to avoid getting "between a rock and a hard place" are critical to survival.
I have the auxiliary engine. I have warps to run down wind bare poles. I understand my boats condition. I can modify a small jib to rig a small sail between the mast and the back stay. I am willing to deploy rode and chain on the bow or the stern as needed to address the conditions. I am ready to call for help. I am ready to stay in harbor when conditions suggest I would be healthier. I watch my weather. I pray I have my senses about me to avoid trouble and to deal with the conditions presented.
@jssailem
I guess I took the word jib in “storm jib” to describe a small headsail. I was wondering how that would do anything in storm conditions but to force the bow off the wind. I get now that the “jib” is a sail mounted in the “middle” of the boat providing some power and steerage capability. Not sure what you mean by warp ??
I guess I took the word jib in “storm jib” to describe a small headsail. I was wondering how that would do anything in storm conditions but to force the bow off the wind. I get now that the “jib” is a sail mounted in the “middle” of the boat providing some power and steerage capability. Not sure what you mean by warp ??
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,161
A warp is a heavy line or several lines you tie on to a secure cleat and drag behind the boat or off the bow. In a heavy wind the rigging and the boat it self gets blown down the waves. You want the boat to be facing bow or stern first into the wave. A wave taken broadside will roll you. Taken on the bow or stern you ridup and over. Obviously on the bow is better for a square stern boat. One of the reasons canoe shaped sailboats like the Perry designed Valiant 40 has a “Bluewater” reputation is that it rides over a wave nearly the same bow or stern on.
Warps are used to stream behind a boat to slow its motion and align it with the waves. Better would be a storm drogue.
As bad as being rolled over sideways in a big wave, careening down a big wave and burying the bow or stern in the trough will position you to pitch pole. Flip stern over bow or bow over stern. Definitely not a good experience.
So you avoid this by putting out a drag.
Most of us will never experience these conditions. Living through them will need a crew that has at the least given them some thought and have a working plan.
Warps are used to stream behind a boat to slow its motion and align it with the waves. Better would be a storm drogue.
As bad as being rolled over sideways in a big wave, careening down a big wave and burying the bow or stern in the trough will position you to pitch pole. Flip stern over bow or bow over stern. Definitely not a good experience.
So you avoid this by putting out a drag.
Most of us will never experience these conditions. Living through them will need a crew that has at the least given them some thought and have a working plan.
I have no doubt that I will NOT experience this type of sailing. Did some crazy stuff when younger and although not any smarter I think I’m wiser now
I was doing some reading about all this and a few articles mentioned the importance of having very strong attachment points on the vessel if you plan on “dragging” anything be it a warp or drogue. The other caution was practicing deploying the “device” as things get exponentially more dangerous in hazardous conditions - not a good time to learn
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The definition of a storm is conditions with winds over 48 knots. There is a formula for a “storm sail” that is required equipment for offshore racers. It’s limited to a max area if 5% of I^2 . That’s a max of 36 sq feet for your boat. But I don’t think you want one for your boat.
You’re talking about a Hunter 22, which is a Small, trailerable, 22 foot boat. There isn’t any sail that’ll be helpful on a Hunter 22 in an actual storm. Your best hope is bare poles and an anchor, or trailing warps in that much wind. Or Better yet, never go out if there’s a chance of a storm.
Maybe you mean a heavy air jib? For Force 7, “near gale” conditions up to 30 kts? Or for sailing in Small Craft Warnings, typically for winds up to 15 or 21 kts depending on local average wind?
so, let’s start again, please. For use in what conditions? Please define the wind rand sea conditions you’d use it in.
your boat has a fixed keel, right? for a heavy air jib, I’d recommend something with luff about 65-85% of I, an LP of 70-80% of J, with a fairly high clew. With an Area somewhere between approx 60 - 98 sf. The exact specifics depend on how the boat is currently rigged and how much wind you think you can keep sailing In.
I assume you have hanks on your existing jib, so I’d recommend hanks on a heavy air jib for your Hunter 22:.
And 6 - 7 oz dacron, depending on the weave. Maybe something like Contender Supercruise 6.4 or Challenge 6.53 or similar.
judy B
Note: I edited this because I realized the older Hunter 22has a fixed keel, not a swing keel.
.
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jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,161
I agree with that. I’ve read that trying to recover a drogue can feel impossible.
I have studied the issues of Heavy weather sailing. I’ve never been (I have avoided) sailing in conditions that caused me to feel uncomfortable.
I have studied the issues of Heavy weather sailing. I’ve never been (I have avoided) sailing in conditions that caused me to feel uncomfortable.
The chief goal of trailing warps, or drouges, as I’ve come to see it, is to slow the yacht as it surfs down the face of a wave coming from astern, essentially allowing the wave to pass under the boat before the boat reaches the trough and buries its bow into the wave ahead. With steep waves of short wavelength, smashing into the wave ahead would be especially disastrous. Sometimes, the yacht must be steered at an angle as it approaches the trough to allow it to ride up the wave ahead at an angle. For decades this was a tactic that racers of the Southern Ocean advocated. Now, however, the preferred tactic is to go fast, make high speed relative to the speed of the waves. So, moving with them and therefore not getting overtaken and pushed around b/c of the boat’s inertia. Need a big, fast yacht to accomplish that.
As far as I know, yachts do not trail or deploy warps from the bow. Rather, a sea anchor. Warps can be a few large-diameter lines trailing in parallel, or one very long line forming a semicircle (bight) between two cleats. But NOT stern cleats. Two mid-ship cleats. Otherwise, you cannot effectively steer the boat. Think of how tow boats operate. The load is carried by a Sampson post on the mid-line of the cockpit so the towing vessel can turn its stern under the tow line, etc.
As far as I know, yachts do not trail or deploy warps from the bow. Rather, a sea anchor. Warps can be a few large-diameter lines trailing in parallel, or one very long line forming a semicircle (bight) between two cleats. But NOT stern cleats.
Two mid-ship cleats. Otherwise, you cannot effectively steer the boat. Think of how tow boats operate. The load is carried by a Sampson post on the mid-line of the cockpit so the towing vessel can turn its stern under the tow line, etc.
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I have a a 1981 Hunter 22. I bought new main, jib & a storm sail here: The Sailwarehouse. Where I sail the storm jib is used once a week and works just fine as it allows for a relaxing cruise in hard blows.