The forward head on my H40 stinks. It doesn't get used much, so I think seawater has stagnated and the stench has permeated the hoses. Does anyone--Peggy or anyone else have a suggestion before I spend the TIME and $$ to replace all of the hoses? I have recently taken to flushing it everytime I am on the boat. I'm not sure this is making any difference. Any help would be appreciated Thanks
Stinky Forward head H40
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Let's not spend any money yet...
'Cuz if your odor is confined to only the forward head, I doubt that the hoses are the culprit....if they were, you'd have odor everywhere the hoses pass through. More likely it's trapped animal or vegetable sea life in the intake and/or a dirty shower sump. So clean the sump...and clean out the head: disconnect the intake hose from the thru-hull (make sure the seacock is closed first!)..stick it in a bucket of clean fresh water and run several bucketfuls through the toilet. Add a quart of white vinegar to the last bucketful. If it is the toilet, and you want to prevent this from happening again, instead of reconnecting the intake hose to the thru-hull, tee it into the head sink drain line. When closing up the boat after the forward head has been used, close the sink drain thru-hull, fill the sink with clean fresh water...flush the toilet. Because the thru-hull is closed, the toilet will pull the water out of the sink...rinsing all the sea water out before it can sit in the system and stagnate. Just be sure to keep a plug in the sink when it's not in use...otherwise, the toilet will pull air through the sink, preventing it from priming.
'Cuz if your odor is confined to only the forward head, I doubt that the hoses are the culprit....if they were, you'd have odor everywhere the hoses pass through. More likely it's trapped animal or vegetable sea life in the intake and/or a dirty shower sump. So clean the sump...and clean out the head: disconnect the intake hose from the thru-hull (make sure the seacock is closed first!)..stick it in a bucket of clean fresh water and run several bucketfuls through the toilet. Add a quart of white vinegar to the last bucketful. If it is the toilet, and you want to prevent this from happening again, instead of reconnecting the intake hose to the thru-hull, tee it into the head sink drain line. When closing up the boat after the forward head has been used, close the sink drain thru-hull, fill the sink with clean fresh water...flush the toilet. Because the thru-hull is closed, the toilet will pull the water out of the sink...rinsing all the sea water out before it can sit in the system and stagnate. Just be sure to keep a plug in the sink when it's not in use...otherwise, the toilet will pull air through the sink, preventing it from priming.
Forward Head
You might check to see that the seal on the top of the forward holding tank is not leaking. Mine was leaking forward of the bulkhead in the V-berth. It seems that the sealant, for the top, was put in after the bulkhead was in place so the forward part was not sealed. I agree with Peggy as to a fresh water flush but our method is different. I have the through hull for the head intake closed and we use the shower head that pulls out of the sink to fill the toilet for the fresh water flush. We always flush twice with plenty of fresh water. It takes at least two flushes to get everything out of the lines on the way to the holding tank. All of the smell is gone. Also we put a little bleach in the forward shower sump if it is used but most of the time it is dry (not used)so there is no need for the bleach. Hope this helps. Vinny
You might check to see that the seal on the top of the forward holding tank is not leaking. Mine was leaking forward of the bulkhead in the V-berth. It seems that the sealant, for the top, was put in after the bulkhead was in place so the forward part was not sealed. I agree with Peggy as to a fresh water flush but our method is different. I have the through hull for the head intake closed and we use the shower head that pulls out of the sink to fill the toilet for the fresh water flush. We always flush twice with plenty of fresh water. It takes at least two flushes to get everything out of the lines on the way to the holding tank. All of the smell is gone. Also we put a little bleach in the forward shower sump if it is used but most of the time it is dry (not used)so there is no need for the bleach. Hope this helps. Vinny
Agree
Object is to reduce seawwater in the lines by using fresh water instead. We use tap water from the sinks (which keeps those lines flushed) and store it in a plastic jug for flushing. To really clean the lines, pour some baking soda in them and then the vinegar. Complete by pouring boiled water in them, and you're completely clean. It's quite a show, too.
Object is to reduce seawwater in the lines by using fresh water instead. We use tap water from the sinks (which keeps those lines flushed) and store it in a plastic jug for flushing. To really clean the lines, pour some baking soda in them and then the vinegar. Complete by pouring boiled water in them, and you're completely clean. It's quite a show, too.
How much fresh water used in flush
Peggie, how much fresh water does the SeaEra electric use per flush, normally? Per your suggestion I am looking at changing my manual toilet to the SeaEra electric but have not decided if my fresh water tank has enough capacity to use it for the flush.
Peggie, how much fresh water does the SeaEra electric use per flush, normally? Per your suggestion I am looking at changing my manual toilet to the SeaEra electric but have not decided if my fresh water tank has enough capacity to use it for the flush.
SeaEra uses approx .5 gal/flush
Which is about the same as a manual toilet. Pressurized fresh water version uses about 1/3 less than raw water version. For total water consumption, estimate 5 flushes/day/person while continuously aboard.
Which is about the same as a manual toilet. Pressurized fresh water version uses about 1/3 less than raw water version. For total water consumption, estimate 5 flushes/day/person while continuously aboard.
Thanks Peggy
Thanks-- the tee is a great idea. Already cleaned out the sump months ago. Will try this weekend--I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks-- the tee is a great idea. Already cleaned out the sump months ago. Will try this weekend--I'll let you know how it goes.
Dumpster
I hated the forward head on ours (ridiculously small and no privacy from v-berth) so since the original cheapy head in there was already toast I unbolted it and fed it to the dumpster. We love the newfound storage space (see link.) Unless you're chartering I think having 2 heads on a boat this size is a silly use of space. It's not a solution for everybody but you might consider it before you break out the checkbook. Oh yeah, we're liveaboards (over 5 years) and we always flush with fresh water. Our SOP is a big mug that sits next to the head. Fill it from the sink faucet and pour it in the bowl. Simple, cheap and it works. It's easy to explain to non-boater guests too.
I hated the forward head on ours (ridiculously small and no privacy from v-berth) so since the original cheapy head in there was already toast I unbolted it and fed it to the dumpster. We love the newfound storage space (see link.) Unless you're chartering I think having 2 heads on a boat this size is a silly use of space. It's not a solution for everybody but you might consider it before you break out the checkbook. Oh yeah, we're liveaboards (over 5 years) and we always flush with fresh water. Our SOP is a big mug that sits next to the head. Fill it from the sink faucet and pour it in the bowl. Simple, cheap and it works. It's easy to explain to non-boater guests too.
Charter
Rick-- Have considered it, but I do some chartering. I'm going to see how it goes. I'll probably get rid of it when I break down and buy the genset, as it would be a perfect generator room and "workshop", tool storage space, but for now I still need it for the occasiional charter. Thanks
Rick-- Have considered it, but I do some chartering. I'm going to see how it goes. I'll probably get rid of it when I break down and buy the genset, as it would be a perfect generator room and "workshop", tool storage space, but for now I still need it for the occasiional charter. Thanks
Gnerator in a living space is a no-no
Although diesel exhaust is safe as long as the exhaust system sends it all outside the boat, in a confined area the concentration of CO can be lethal, even from diesel. Batteries should never be installed in a living space either, because they can outgas lethal gasses. Just thought I'd mention it...
Although diesel exhaust is safe as long as the exhaust system sends it all outside the boat, in a confined area the concentration of CO can be lethal, even from diesel. Batteries should never be installed in a living space either, because they can outgas lethal gasses. Just thought I'd mention it...
Peggie, you lost me on your last post, Huh?
How do you define a living space? What criterion do you use to draw the line between living space and machinery space, especially on a sailboat? And if we followed your guidelines for batteries, well, we wouldn't have many if any? How many people have been killed or injured from battery gas? It's hydrogen for god sake.
How do you define a living space? What criterion do you use to draw the line between living space and machinery space, especially on a sailboat? And if we followed your guidelines for batteries, well, we wouldn't have many if any? How many people have been killed or injured from battery gas? It's hydrogen for god sake.
where to put batteries
In my last boat, a CSY 37, batteries were in the lazarette which vented overboard from a 'mostly' sealed battery box. On my 420, they are under the cabin sole in the salon area. While the 420 is much nicer and makes better use of space, I think the batteries are a dangerous enough item that they should be placed in a sealed box with overboard venting. It's not a big enough risk for me to change my current setup, but it is worth noting that overcharging/gassing can exhaust explosive & toxic gasses into the cabin. "There are quite a few very serious injuries each year due to people improperly jumping off cars and causing explosions when the sparks ignite battery gasses. "Recharging a wet lead-acid battery normally produces hydrogen and oxygen gasses. While spark retarding vent caps help prevent battery explosions, they occur when jumping, connecting or disconnecting charger or battery cables, and starting the engine. While not fatal, battery explosions cause thousands of eye and burn injuries each year. When battery explosions occur when starting an engine, here is the usual sequence of events: One or more cells had a high concentration of hydrogen gas (above 4.1%) because the vent cap was clogged or a defective valve did not release the gas. The electrolyte levels fell below the top of the plates due to high under hood or engine compartment temperatures, overcharging, or poor maintenance. A low resistive bridge or "treeing" formed between the top of the plates such that when the current started to flow, it caused an arc or spark in one of the cells. That combination of events ignites the gas, blows the battery case cover off and spatters electrolyte all over the engine compartment. The largest number of battery explosions while starting an engine occurs in hot climates. "
In my last boat, a CSY 37, batteries were in the lazarette which vented overboard from a 'mostly' sealed battery box. On my 420, they are under the cabin sole in the salon area. While the 420 is much nicer and makes better use of space, I think the batteries are a dangerous enough item that they should be placed in a sealed box with overboard venting. It's not a big enough risk for me to change my current setup, but it is worth noting that overcharging/gassing can exhaust explosive & toxic gasses into the cabin. "There are quite a few very serious injuries each year due to people improperly jumping off cars and causing explosions when the sparks ignite battery gasses. "Recharging a wet lead-acid battery normally produces hydrogen and oxygen gasses. While spark retarding vent caps help prevent battery explosions, they occur when jumping, connecting or disconnecting charger or battery cables, and starting the engine. While not fatal, battery explosions cause thousands of eye and burn injuries each year. When battery explosions occur when starting an engine, here is the usual sequence of events: One or more cells had a high concentration of hydrogen gas (above 4.1%) because the vent cap was clogged or a defective valve did not release the gas. The electrolyte levels fell below the top of the plates due to high under hood or engine compartment temperatures, overcharging, or poor maintenance. A low resistive bridge or "treeing" formed between the top of the plates such that when the current started to flow, it caused an arc or spark in one of the cells. That combination of events ignites the gas, blows the battery case cover off and spatters electrolyte all over the engine compartment. The largest number of battery explosions while starting an engine occurs in hot climates. "
Battery and engine/genset space
should be isolated via bulkheads from living spaces. Battery under v-berth or in a locker, bad. Battery in engine compartment under sole is ok. "It's JUST hydrogen?" Hydrogen will explode if it comes in contact with a spark. And it has some other "interesting" reactions when it comes in contact with certain gasses. You might want to look up the CG regs and ABYC standards for this.
should be isolated via bulkheads from living spaces. Battery under v-berth or in a locker, bad. Battery in engine compartment under sole is ok. "It's JUST hydrogen?" Hydrogen will explode if it comes in contact with a spark. And it has some other "interesting" reactions when it comes in contact with certain gasses. You might want to look up the CG regs and ABYC standards for this.
I submit,
those of us who know the risk, get our hackles up when 'warning label' detail is spouted as knowledge by the writer.
those of us who know the risk, get our hackles up when 'warning label' detail is spouted as knowledge by the writer.
Where are your batteries?
My batteries (Gel cells) are under the berth in the aft cabin, Where are they in all of the other 40's? All but one boat I've owned have had the batteries in what you might define as "living space", and I believe they came that way from the factories. As for the Generator, if the exhaust is safely vented overboard, how does CO get into the "living space"? The CO is part of the exhaust that goes overboard with the cooling water.
My batteries (Gel cells) are under the berth in the aft cabin, Where are they in all of the other 40's? All but one boat I've owned have had the batteries in what you might define as "living space", and I believe they came that way from the factories. As for the Generator, if the exhaust is safely vented overboard, how does CO get into the "living space"? The CO is part of the exhaust that goes overboard with the cooling water.
Same with the main engine.
Are we to eliminate the inboard diesel engine? It's the exact same risk.
Are we to eliminate the inboard diesel engine? It's the exact same risk.
Did anybody here see 'Are we scaring ourself to
death?' on ABC with John Stoufler, a couple-three years ago? Almost no subject in America is discussed anymore without dire warnings of impending danger. And it's not some entity stating risk possibilities as a matter-of-fact. No, drama is added to the soapbox speech as if on stage performing a Shakespeare play. The show said a lot of things that many of us who are older have been cringing over, for many years. I think the problem came about from Lawyers. Seriously. Count the number of warning labels on a new aluminum stepladder next time you're in the 'ladder store'.
death?' on ABC with John Stoufler, a couple-three years ago? Almost no subject in America is discussed anymore without dire warnings of impending danger. And it's not some entity stating risk possibilities as a matter-of-fact. No, drama is added to the soapbox speech as if on stage performing a Shakespeare play. The show said a lot of things that many of us who are older have been cringing over, for many years. I think the problem came about from Lawyers. Seriously. Count the number of warning labels on a new aluminum stepladder next time you're in the 'ladder store'.
Battery location
More than one of the 40's have them under the aft berth. Some people put them in the settee in the main cabin. Catalina 400 has them under the floor in the main cabin. The point is no one would be “legal or safe”. I looked up the USCG REGS and they only say that the battery is to be covered and vented as the cover or compartment should have air flow. "The venting of hydrogen gas does not require a ventilation system per se (ducts, blowers, etc.). As long as the gas can escape the compartment, the installation meets the intent of 183.420(e)." H2 being lighter than air would flow out unless it was trapped in a sealed unit such as a clogged vent cap. Free H2 is not a problem. We have other things to worry about on our boats than where the batteries are mounted as long as they are secured and covered properly. Vinny
More than one of the 40's have them under the aft berth. Some people put them in the settee in the main cabin. Catalina 400 has them under the floor in the main cabin. The point is no one would be “legal or safe”. I looked up the USCG REGS and they only say that the battery is to be covered and vented as the cover or compartment should have air flow. "The venting of hydrogen gas does not require a ventilation system per se (ducts, blowers, etc.). As long as the gas can escape the compartment, the installation meets the intent of 183.420(e)." H2 being lighter than air would flow out unless it was trapped in a sealed unit such as a clogged vent cap. Free H2 is not a problem. We have other things to worry about on our boats than where the batteries are mounted as long as they are secured and covered properly. Vinny
relax...
I don't think anyone is trying to scare anyone, but only reminding ourselves of risks we should be aware of. Batteries can be dangerous and should be treated with respect. These are not 'sky is falling' panic driven statements, many people die each year from CO leaks, many others are injured from exploding batteries. What we should do is be aware of these dangers, take appropriate, reasonable matters to minimize the risks, then enjoy ourselves drinking far too much, and even more dangerous than CO & over heated batteries, Rum! cheers...
I don't think anyone is trying to scare anyone, but only reminding ourselves of risks we should be aware of. Batteries can be dangerous and should be treated with respect. These are not 'sky is falling' panic driven statements, many people die each year from CO leaks, many others are injured from exploding batteries. What we should do is be aware of these dangers, take appropriate, reasonable matters to minimize the risks, then enjoy ourselves drinking far too much, and even more dangerous than CO & over heated batteries, Rum! cheers...
Not the same thing at all , Fred
Engine compartments are surrounded by "firewalls" and are vented to the outside of the boat. There's no ventilation under a v-berth or in a settee. Boats with gas engines have even more safeguards. I'm not trying to scare anyone...Guy's post summed up my point completely.
Engine compartments are surrounded by "firewalls" and are vented to the outside of the boat. There's no ventilation under a v-berth or in a settee. Boats with gas engines have even more safeguards. I'm not trying to scare anyone...Guy's post summed up my point completely.
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