I posted a couple of weeks ago about having starting issue. The starter engages but 'sometimes' cranks slow as if the batteries were near death. I got a lot of good advice and checked out all points of view that were posted for me. The best advice, dare I say, was to "Do it yourselve" and not waste money hiring fools. Anyway, the next thing i would like to try is replacing the starter button and the wire that runs from the starter button to the solenoid. I would also replace the 30 amp inline fuse. I have read in the past the adding a car horn relay also helps boost amps or volts. My question is why does this help and where do I install the relay? How is it connected. I should have started with some background but the engine is the m-18 diesel with a new starter, alternator, newer batteries and everything has been tested a dozen times. thanks, jack
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I had a sluggish starter on my Irwin 37 ketch
I had the sluggish starter problem on my boat, and after tracking down several possiblities, a friend suggested the starter itself had worn down bushings and the rotor was dragging. I took the starter out and had a shop rebuild the starter and it made a remarkable difference. It spins up like a top now and starts the Perkins 4-108 diesel, even in cold weather.
I had the sluggish starter problem on my boat, and after tracking down several possiblities, a friend suggested the starter itself had worn down bushings and the rotor was dragging. I took the starter out and had a shop rebuild the starter and it made a remarkable difference. It spins up like a top now and starts the Perkins 4-108 diesel, even in cold weather.
relay
Jack the relay is a common trick to bypass a long run of cable from the starter to the switch/key start. Between length and corrosion, there can be a voltage drop sufficient to prevent starting. While it can work to prevent the voltage drop, it would appear you don't know that is the cause of the problem so - why fix something you aren't sure is broken? Replacing a wire run and fuse isn't likely to do anything other than clean up some old connections. As the previous post says, it sounds like it could be the starter itself. Before going down that route, I'd simply run a temp switch of sufficent capacity to carry the current direct from the battery to the starter bypassing everything in between and the cable run to see if that helps - if it does, you now know where the problem is; if not, back to the starter.
Jack the relay is a common trick to bypass a long run of cable from the starter to the switch/key start. Between length and corrosion, there can be a voltage drop sufficient to prevent starting. While it can work to prevent the voltage drop, it would appear you don't know that is the cause of the problem so - why fix something you aren't sure is broken? Replacing a wire run and fuse isn't likely to do anything other than clean up some old connections. As the previous post says, it sounds like it could be the starter itself. Before going down that route, I'd simply run a temp switch of sufficent capacity to carry the current direct from the battery to the starter bypassing everything in between and the cable run to see if that helps - if it does, you now know where the problem is; if not, back to the starter.
Here's the diagram.
Did all of that: starter rebuild, all new wiring, new key switch, new starter button. The only thing that worked is in the Related Link below.
Did all of that: starter rebuild, all new wiring, new key switch, new starter button. The only thing that worked is in the Related Link below.
Simulate a relay
Before you go to the trouble of splicing in another relay, why don't you use a short piece of wire to provide 12v to the existing solenoid. Either from the battery or the live terminal on the existing solenoid. If it starts, fix the push button or the wiring. If it still sluggish, rebuild the starter. Trouble shooting 101 - process of elimination. Personally I don't like to add more stuff to the circuit. Just more things to fail. The start button is used to provide 12v to pull in the solenoid. The solenoid has a big electical contact to feed 12v to the starter motor and also move a helix gear towards the fly wheel. When solenoid ages it will take more current to pull the helix gear in and make the contact for the starter. May be the contact surface in the solenoid has too much arc wear to cause voltage drop and needs to be rebuild. The starter could have carbon build up on the commutator when it ages. That's hard to check unless you have a very good ohmmeter or take it apart to have a good look. The carbon brush can be shot too. In all cases rebuild a startor is not that costly. Just bring it to the automotive guys to do it. The marine guys charge a king's ransom. Good luck
Before you go to the trouble of splicing in another relay, why don't you use a short piece of wire to provide 12v to the existing solenoid. Either from the battery or the live terminal on the existing solenoid. If it starts, fix the push button or the wiring. If it still sluggish, rebuild the starter. Trouble shooting 101 - process of elimination. Personally I don't like to add more stuff to the circuit. Just more things to fail. The start button is used to provide 12v to pull in the solenoid. The solenoid has a big electical contact to feed 12v to the starter motor and also move a helix gear towards the fly wheel. When solenoid ages it will take more current to pull the helix gear in and make the contact for the starter. May be the contact surface in the solenoid has too much arc wear to cause voltage drop and needs to be rebuild. The starter could have carbon build up on the commutator when it ages. That's hard to check unless you have a very good ohmmeter or take it apart to have a good look. The carbon brush can be shot too. In all cases rebuild a startor is not that costly. Just bring it to the automotive guys to do it. The marine guys charge a king's ransom. Good luck
If the starter engages
but cranks slow the relay fix will not help. The relay fix is for when you have excessive resistance in the circuit from the start switch to the solenoid that the solenoid won't pull in. Thats when it goes click,,,click,,, and doesn't crank at all. If it engages and cranks sluggishly it is either low battery, bad connections, or a dragging starter motor. Get a voltmeter and start chasing voltage from battery to starter while someone cranks the starter. Battery voltage should not drop more than 2 tenths of a volt from battery to starter while cranking and should not drop below 10.5 volts. The starter should not draw more than 200-250 amps, maybe less depending on the size engine/starter combo you have. Not enough info to diagnose your problem, but if it is intermittent slow cranking and the obvious stuff has been eliminated, I would guess it is starter motor bushings and time to rebuild your starter.
but cranks slow the relay fix will not help. The relay fix is for when you have excessive resistance in the circuit from the start switch to the solenoid that the solenoid won't pull in. Thats when it goes click,,,click,,, and doesn't crank at all. If it engages and cranks sluggishly it is either low battery, bad connections, or a dragging starter motor. Get a voltmeter and start chasing voltage from battery to starter while someone cranks the starter. Battery voltage should not drop more than 2 tenths of a volt from battery to starter while cranking and should not drop below 10.5 volts. The starter should not draw more than 200-250 amps, maybe less depending on the size engine/starter combo you have. Not enough info to diagnose your problem, but if it is intermittent slow cranking and the obvious stuff has been eliminated, I would guess it is starter motor bushings and time to rebuild your starter.
Jack, I remember your earlier post but barely
recollect the answers you got. Instead of reinventing the wheel, yet again, could you link us to that earlier post, please? Since your name isn't in blue as "registered" we can't look up your previous posts by clikcing on your name. The solenoid idea is a good one, and we may have suggested that to you earlier. Another solenoid writeup is in the link. It's for fglow plugs, but the same logic applies. And, yes, Jack did say he had a new starter.
recollect the answers you got. Instead of reinventing the wheel, yet again, could you link us to that earlier post, please? Since your name isn't in blue as "registered" we can't look up your previous posts by clikcing on your name. The solenoid idea is a good one, and we may have suggested that to you earlier. Another solenoid writeup is in the link. It's for fglow plugs, but the same logic applies. And, yes, Jack did say he had a new starter.
Stu and all,
I would link the orginal post but haven't figured out how to as of yet. It was the first one that comes up under "engine drags" in the forum search. You would have to scroll up from my wining little speach/rant about paying the marina bill. I like the idea of jumping the solenoid and I will give that a try. Ruidi wrote that if the engine drags the 12 volt relay won't help. I appreiciate the advice but I was wondering there were other opinions on that matter? I sure don't want to waste my time doing something fruitless. I will check that it is a 12 volt starter and not 24 volts. Someone posted last time to check the ground on the starter. It was not selfgrounding but had a wire to the back of the engine. It like looked orignal stuff so I discounted it and moved the ground to a better spot. And just to be clear the I had this problem and replace all kinds of stuff. Wiring harness, batteries, starter [bench tested twice} and alternator {bench tested twice}. thanks for all that have time to help, Jack
I would link the orginal post but haven't figured out how to as of yet. It was the first one that comes up under "engine drags" in the forum search. You would have to scroll up from my wining little speach/rant about paying the marina bill. I like the idea of jumping the solenoid and I will give that a try. Ruidi wrote that if the engine drags the 12 volt relay won't help. I appreiciate the advice but I was wondering there were other opinions on that matter? I sure don't want to waste my time doing something fruitless. I will check that it is a 12 volt starter and not 24 volts. Someone posted last time to check the ground on the starter. It was not selfgrounding but had a wire to the back of the engine. It like looked orignal stuff so I discounted it and moved the ground to a better spot. And just to be clear the I had this problem and replace all kinds of stuff. Wiring harness, batteries, starter [bench tested twice} and alternator {bench tested twice}. thanks for all that have time to help, Jack
If the engine cranks the only fault I could find with
the solenoid is that it may have a faulty switch connector in the high amp side. I would discard a problem with the start button or wiring to it. Try jumping the high amperage terminals with a screwdriver to see if you can recreate the slow cranking. If you cannot I would consider replacing the solenoid; if you can recreate it then your problem lies elsewhere in the high amp circuit or mechanical. It may be normal for a cold engine to crank slower than once it has warmed up; can you relate the occassions where it cranks slow to certain conditions or timing? Does your engine have a crank handle? If it does try it at various times and see if you find any notable change in resistance. If you have eliminated all electrical possibilities it may be time to move into the mechanical trouble shooting.
the solenoid is that it may have a faulty switch connector in the high amp side. I would discard a problem with the start button or wiring to it. Try jumping the high amperage terminals with a screwdriver to see if you can recreate the slow cranking. If you cannot I would consider replacing the solenoid; if you can recreate it then your problem lies elsewhere in the high amp circuit or mechanical. It may be normal for a cold engine to crank slower than once it has warmed up; can you relate the occassions where it cranks slow to certain conditions or timing? Does your engine have a crank handle? If it does try it at various times and see if you find any notable change in resistance. If you have eliminated all electrical possibilities it may be time to move into the mechanical trouble shooting.
Step by step...
Trouble shooting is a process of elimination. I would tackle it in this manner. The order is not necessarily something you need to stick to it's just how my trouble shooting would go... #0 Load test your batteries with a proper load tester! If good move onto other tests. Or turn on all cabin lights and then try and start the motor. How much do the lights dim? Do they go out? After you've cranked for a few seconds feel the wires. if they are hot there is resistance or they are undersized! #1 Disconnect and clean, with a wire brush, each and every terminal in the starting circuit, including the battery cables, and the post on the starter and the posts on the solenoid. DO NOT FORGET THE GROUND WIRES!!! DO NOT FORGET TO DISCONNECT THE BATTERIES BEFORE YOU WORK ON LIVE WIRES!! #2 Visually inspect the battery cables for corrosion at the terminal. If any corrosion is visible move to step #4. #3 Make sure your battery wire gauge is LARGE enough. (perhaps this should be step zero) #4 If you have any corrosion at any of the terminals remove the terminals and crimp on new terminals or battery lugs. A corroded terminal creates resistance and causes voltage and amperage drop! #5 Jumper the solenoid to eliminate the starter button circuit. #6 Remove the starter and lube the shaft where the gear throws out. #7 DANGEROUS !! Using a spare battery selector switch (I know everyone just has one lying around right?) and some home made jumpers of the SAME gauge as the battery cable you can bypass the solenoid by flipping the switch on for a couple seconds to turn the engine over. Another, and more dangerous method, is to short the two large terminals with an insulated handle screw driver. If it turns over fine your solenoid contacts are not passing the full current load. If you don't have the spare battery cable lying around and terminals, and don;t want to try the screw driver method, it will be cheaper to buy a spare solenoid as it's ALWAYS a good idea to have one on hand. I've had three fail on me in the last 15 years. The first time I did not have a spare every other time I did. #8 If the above did not correct your issue you need to bring the starter in for testing and or re-build...
Trouble shooting is a process of elimination. I would tackle it in this manner. The order is not necessarily something you need to stick to it's just how my trouble shooting would go... #0 Load test your batteries with a proper load tester! If good move onto other tests. Or turn on all cabin lights and then try and start the motor. How much do the lights dim? Do they go out? After you've cranked for a few seconds feel the wires. if they are hot there is resistance or they are undersized! #1 Disconnect and clean, with a wire brush, each and every terminal in the starting circuit, including the battery cables, and the post on the starter and the posts on the solenoid. DO NOT FORGET THE GROUND WIRES!!! DO NOT FORGET TO DISCONNECT THE BATTERIES BEFORE YOU WORK ON LIVE WIRES!! #2 Visually inspect the battery cables for corrosion at the terminal. If any corrosion is visible move to step #4. #3 Make sure your battery wire gauge is LARGE enough. (perhaps this should be step zero) #4 If you have any corrosion at any of the terminals remove the terminals and crimp on new terminals or battery lugs. A corroded terminal creates resistance and causes voltage and amperage drop! #5 Jumper the solenoid to eliminate the starter button circuit. #6 Remove the starter and lube the shaft where the gear throws out. #7 DANGEROUS !! Using a spare battery selector switch (I know everyone just has one lying around right?) and some home made jumpers of the SAME gauge as the battery cable you can bypass the solenoid by flipping the switch on for a couple seconds to turn the engine over. Another, and more dangerous method, is to short the two large terminals with an insulated handle screw driver. If it turns over fine your solenoid contacts are not passing the full current load. If you don't have the spare battery cable lying around and terminals, and don;t want to try the screw driver method, it will be cheaper to buy a spare solenoid as it's ALWAYS a good idea to have one on hand. I've had three fail on me in the last 15 years. The first time I did not have a spare every other time I did. #8 If the above did not correct your issue you need to bring the starter in for testing and or re-build...
thanks again,....
I will go ahead and try jumping the solenoid. I already purchased the new starter button, wire , inline fuse so if the jump start indicates bad wiring I will go ahead and replace that. The only thing I can add is that changing the battery switch from 1 to both seems to help when the needs araises and secondly the GPS volt meter reads about 12.5 volts or so but drops and bounces around a bit to between 12.5 to 11.8 or so when using the autopilot. I figured that part was normal. I will keep you posted, Jack
I will go ahead and try jumping the solenoid. I already purchased the new starter button, wire , inline fuse so if the jump start indicates bad wiring I will go ahead and replace that. The only thing I can add is that changing the battery switch from 1 to both seems to help when the needs araises and secondly the GPS volt meter reads about 12.5 volts or so but drops and bounces around a bit to between 12.5 to 11.8 or so when using the autopilot. I figured that part was normal. I will keep you posted, Jack
Use a Ford 12 volt starter solinoid as a relay.
In my much younger days I owned a VW repair shop and they also had starter problems exactly as you have explained. The problem is caused by voltage resistance that builds within the system with age and use. We corrected the problem by installing a ford 12 v starter relay/solinoid prior to the regular starter solinoid. The new solinoid becomes a relay and the wire from the key is run to the new solinoid key input. The new solinoid also has 12v power run from the battery to its hi voltage input terminal (use 10 gauge wire) and has a 10g wire run from its hi volt output to the old soliniod key wire slot. This dumps a strong voltage input to the old solinoid and she will crank harder than the NY Gov's lady. This repair works on Honda riding mowers and Int. Harv. dozers. Wow. Ray
In my much younger days I owned a VW repair shop and they also had starter problems exactly as you have explained. The problem is caused by voltage resistance that builds within the system with age and use. We corrected the problem by installing a ford 12 v starter relay/solinoid prior to the regular starter solinoid. The new solinoid becomes a relay and the wire from the key is run to the new solinoid key input. The new solinoid also has 12v power run from the battery to its hi voltage input terminal (use 10 gauge wire) and has a 10g wire run from its hi volt output to the old soliniod key wire slot. This dumps a strong voltage input to the old solinoid and she will crank harder than the NY Gov's lady. This repair works on Honda riding mowers and Int. Harv. dozers. Wow. Ray
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